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brucewayne
Just read a news today from Berita harian...

Tentera AS cuci kasut guna al-Quran

TELUK GUANTANAMO: Tentera Amerika Syarikat di Afghanistan menggunakan halaman yang dikoyakkan dari naskhah al-Quran untuk mengesat dan menyuci kasut mereka yang kotor, kata seorang tahanan Islam di penjara Amerika di Cuba itu.
Jumah Al-Dossary, 30, salah seorang daripada enam warga Bahrain yang ditahan di penjara Guantanamo mengesahkan bahawa al-Quran dihina di kem itu manakala tahanan Islam turut menjadi mangsa penderaan seksual, lapor The Associated Press.

Al-Dossary berkata, beliau melihat dengan mata kepalanya sendiri tentera Amerika di Pangkalan Udara Tentera Amerika di Kandahar, Afghanistan membersihkan kasut mereka menggunakan kertas yang dikoyak dari naskhah al-Quran.

Menurut dokumen sulit yang baru didedahkan oleh peguamnya, Joshua Colangelo-Bryan, Al-Dossary dibelasah dan dipijak oleh lapan tentera Amerika sejurus selepas tahanan Islam itu baru menjalani pembedahan perut.

Menurut dokumen itu, pada September 2002, al-Dossary dibawa ke bilik soal siasat dan berdepan dengan empat polis tentera dengan salah seorang daripadanya membawa kamera video.

Katanya, beliau dirantai di atas lantai sebelum dilucutkan pakaian sehingga bogel atas arahan seorang penyoal siasat wanita.

“Wanita itu kemudiannya berbogel, bertinggung di atas kemaluan, dada dan muka saya sebelum dia mengesat darah haidnya ke atas badan saya bagi memaksa saya membuat pengakuan mempunyai hubungan dengan rangkaian al-Qaeda,” kata al-Dossary yang dicatatkan dalam dokumen itu.

Selepas bertemu dengan enam tahanan Bahrain di penjara Guantanamo, Colangelo-Bryan, yang baru tiba di Amerika berkata, enam lelaki itu kini bimbang mereka terpaksa merengkuk di dalam penjara itu seumur hidup.

Sementara itu, laporan terbaru menyatakan, tentera Amerika berulang kali memasukkan tiub makanan kotor ke hidung banduan yang melancarkan mogok lapar sehingga banduan itu muntah darah. – Agensi

“Mereka menjolok salur itu menerusi hidung banduan sehingga salur itu tiba ke perut berulang kali,” kata peguam yang melaporkan kejadian itu kepada hakim persekutuan Amerika pada Ogos lalu.

“Keadaan itu mengakibatkan banduan terbabit muntah darah. Apabila muntah, tentera menghina banduan dengan menyatakan, lihatlah apa yang agama kamu lakukan ke atas diri kamu,” menurut dokumen itu yang baru didedahkan, lapor Associated Press.

Warga Arab Saudi, Yousef al Shehri, 21, yang ditahan di Guantanamo, berkata pegawai memindahkan tiub itu dari seorang banduan kepada banduan lain tanpa mencucinya terlebih dulu.

Seorang lagi banduan berkata, doktor tentera menjolok tiub itu menerusi hidungnya ke perut sehingga menyebabkannya muntah darah. – Agensi


`Nauzubillah....`
Semoga Allah memberi kekuatan kpd mangsa2 penderaan.
Hanya utk menyampaikan kekejaman yg dilakukan oleh tentera Amerika ke atas saudara2 kita. icon_sad.gif
caramel
“U.S. soldiers cleaned their boots with Qur’an pages”

Aljazeera.com / October 22, 2005

A Bahraini detainee held at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba revealed more sexual abuses by the American soldiers there and confirmed Qur’an desecration.

Jumah Al-Dossary, one of six Bahraini detainees the U.S. holds in Guantanamo prison said he was subject of sexual abuse. He also confirmed desecration of the Qur’an, Islam’s Holy Book, by U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan, The Associated Press reported.

Al-Dossary, 30, said he witnessed U.S. soldiers at Kandahar Air Base in Afghanistan cleaning their boots with pages they had ripped from the Holy Qur’an.

According to the recently declassified documents issued by his lawyer Joshua Colangelo-Bryan Al-Dossary, the Bahraini detainee was beaten and stamped on by eight U.S. soldiers, as he was recovering from an earlier stomach operation.

Sexual abuse

In September 2002, Al-Dossary was taken to an interrogation room where he found four MPs, one carrying a video camera. Al-Dossary said he was shackled to the floor, stripped naked on orders from a female interrogator, who stripped and squatted over his genitals, chest, and face smearing him with her menstrual blood to force him admit having links to Al-Qaeda network.

On a later occasion Al Dossary says he was forced to watch naked man and woman having sex, then offered sex with the woman if he co-operated with the interrogators, Gulf Daily News reported.

Al Dossary’s accusations of being harshly beaten and stamped on by U.S. guards have been widely reported already.

Now Al Dossary suffers heart problems, and he wakes up screaming from nightmares. He fears he has been driven to mental illness, the paper reported.

After visiting all six Bahraini detainees at Guantanamo jail, Colangelo-Bryan, who has just arrived in the U.S., says the six men fear they will stay there for the rest of their lives.

Force-fed torture

Hunger-strikers at Guantanamo jail accused U.S. guards of repeatedly inserting and removing dirty feeding tubes until the detainee would vomit blood.

According to declassified documents recently released by defense lawyers for three men held at the U.S. detention center in Cuba, the guards used feeding tubes as thick as a finger, as objects of torture.

"They were forcibly shoved up the detainees' noses and down into their stomachs," the lawyers reported to a federal judge in August. "No anesthesia or sedative was provided."

The force feedings resulted in prisoners "vomiting up substantial amounts of blood. When they vomited up blood, the soldiers mocked and cursed at them, and taunted them with statements like `look what your religion has brought you.'"

Yousef al Shehri, a 21 year-old Saudi detainee held at Guantanamo, said guards removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and inserted it into another without cleaning.

Another detainee said that a military doctor put a tube in his nose, down his throat and "kept moving the tube up and down" until he finally "started violently throwing up blood."

-----

Direct translation.

Oh God. This is too much.
rx7boy
Well sometimes human can act worse than animal.. Nauzubillah.. icon_sad.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 24 2005, 01:56 AM)
“U.S. soldiers cleaned their boots with Qur’an pages”

Aljazeera.com / October 22, 2005

A Bahraini detainee held at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba revealed more sexual abuses by the American soldiers there and confirmed Qur’an desecration.

Jumah Al-Dossary, one of six Bahraini detainees the U.S. holds in Guantanamo prison said he was subject of sexual abuse. He also confirmed desecration of the Qur’an, Islam’s Holy Book, by U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan, The Associated Press reported.

Al-Dossary, 30, said he witnessed U.S. soldiers at Kandahar Air Base in Afghanistan cleaning their boots with pages they had ripped from the Holy Qur’an.

According to the recently declassified documents issued by his lawyer Joshua Colangelo-Bryan Al-Dossary, the Bahraini detainee was beaten and stamped on by eight U.S. soldiers, as he was recovering from an earlier stomach operation.

Sexual abuse

In September 2002, Al-Dossary was taken to an interrogation room where he found four MPs, one carrying a video camera. Al-Dossary said he was shackled to the floor, stripped naked on orders from a female interrogator, who stripped and squatted over his genitals, chest, and face smearing him with her menstrual blood to force him admit having links to Al-Qaeda network.

On a later occasion Al Dossary says he was forced to watch naked man and woman having sex, then offered sex with the woman if he co-operated with the interrogators, Gulf Daily News reported.

Al Dossary’s accusations of being harshly beaten and stamped on by U.S. guards have been widely reported already.

Now Al Dossary suffers heart problems, and he wakes up screaming from nightmares. He fears he has been driven to mental illness, the paper reported.

After visiting all six Bahraini detainees at Guantanamo jail, Colangelo-Bryan, who has just arrived in the U.S., says the six men fear they will stay there for the rest of their lives.

Force-fed torture

Hunger-strikers at Guantanamo jail accused U.S. guards of repeatedly inserting and removing dirty feeding tubes until the detainee would vomit blood.

According to declassified documents recently released by defense lawyers for three men held at the U.S. detention center in Cuba, the guards used feeding tubes as thick as a finger, as objects of torture.

"They were forcibly shoved up the detainees' noses and down into their stomachs," the lawyers reported to a federal judge in August. "No anesthesia or sedative was provided."

The force feedings resulted in prisoners "vomiting up substantial amounts of blood. When they vomited up blood, the soldiers mocked and cursed at them, and taunted them with statements like `look what your religion has brought you.'"

Yousef al Shehri, a 21 year-old Saudi detainee held at Guantanamo, said guards removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and inserted it into another without cleaning.

Another detainee said that a military doctor put a tube in his nose, down his throat and "kept moving the tube up and down" until he finally "started violently throwing up blood."

-----

Direct translation.

Oh God. This is too much.
*







Hmmmmm...................

Reading your writing, my dear

I doubt the story. You took the story from Al Jazeera news. They are Muslims extrimist news. I think we should not believe that kind of evil source, shouldn't I?

We should get news from neutral channels, such as: CNN, BBC News and and......

Agree?
caramel
QUOTE
Yousef al Shehri, a 21 year-old Saudi detainee held at Guantanamo, said guards removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and inserted it into another without cleaning.

Another detainee said that a military doctor put a tube in his nose, down his throat and "kept moving the tube up and down" until he finally "started violently throwing up blood."


^ Agreed. The first part I am not too sure. I was just searching for the news and I found this website. However, the 2nd or 3rd part, as I quoted above, was cited as I recall by reputable online news coverages. You can try searching them. beerchug.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 25 2005, 02:09 AM)
QUOTE
Yousef al Shehri, a 21 year-old Saudi detainee held at Guantanamo, said guards removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and inserted it into another without cleaning.

Another detainee said that a military doctor put a tube in his nose, down his throat and "kept moving the tube up and down" until he finally "started violently throwing up blood."


^ Agreed. The first part I am not too sure. I was just searching for the news and I found this website. However, the 2nd or 3rd part, as I quoted above, was cited as I recall by reputable online news coverages. You can try searching them. beerchug.gif
*





Okay, I believe you, my dear icon_smile.gif

I wonder......

Did Muslims do such horrible things so Americans treat them badly?

If you are not a Muslims, my dear Caramel, this question is not for you.

I think it is just Muslims who can answer my question.
Iron Malayan
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 24 2005, 12:56 AM)
“U.S. soldiers cleaned their boots with Qur’an pages”

Aljazeera.com / October 22, 2005

A Bahraini detainee held at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba revealed more sexual abuses by the American soldiers there and confirmed Qur’an desecration.

Jumah Al-Dossary, one of six Bahraini detainees the U.S. holds in Guantanamo prison said he was subject of sexual abuse. He also confirmed desecration of the Qur’an, Islam’s Holy Book, by U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan, The Associated Press reported.

Al-Dossary, 30, said he witnessed U.S. soldiers at Kandahar Air Base in Afghanistan cleaning their boots with pages they had ripped from the Holy Qur’an.

According to the recently declassified documents issued by his lawyer Joshua Colangelo-Bryan Al-Dossary, the Bahraini detainee was beaten and stamped on by eight U.S. soldiers, as he was recovering from an earlier stomach operation.

Sexual abuse

In September 2002, Al-Dossary was taken to an interrogation room where he found four MPs, one carrying a video camera. Al-Dossary said he was shackled to the floor, stripped naked on orders from a female interrogator, who stripped and squatted over his genitals, chest, and face smearing him with her menstrual blood to force him admit having links to Al-Qaeda network.

On a later occasion Al Dossary says he was forced to watch naked man and woman having sex, then offered sex with the woman if he co-operated with the interrogators, Gulf Daily News reported.

Al Dossary’s accusations of being harshly beaten and stamped on by U.S. guards have been widely reported already.

Now Al Dossary suffers heart problems, and he wakes up screaming from nightmares. He fears he has been driven to mental illness, the paper reported.

After visiting all six Bahraini detainees at Guantanamo jail, Colangelo-Bryan, who has just arrived in the U.S., says the six men fear they will stay there for the rest of their lives.

Force-fed torture

Hunger-strikers at Guantanamo jail accused U.S. guards of repeatedly inserting and removing dirty feeding tubes until the detainee would vomit blood.

According to declassified documents recently released by defense lawyers for three men held at the U.S. detention center in Cuba, the guards used feeding tubes as thick as a finger, as objects of torture.

"They were forcibly shoved up the detainees' noses and down into their stomachs," the lawyers reported to a federal judge in August. "No anesthesia or sedative was provided."

The force feedings resulted in prisoners "vomiting up substantial amounts of blood. When they vomited up blood, the soldiers mocked and cursed at them, and taunted them with statements like `look what your religion has brought you.'"

Yousef al Shehri, a 21 year-old Saudi detainee held at Guantanamo, said guards removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and inserted it into another without cleaning.

Another detainee said that a military doctor put a tube in his nose, down his throat and "kept moving the tube up and down" until he finally "started violently throwing up blood."

-----

Direct translation.

Oh God. This is too much.
*

I think some of these allegations are true.
Terrible.
I guess sickos will always be sickos.
caramel
Well, it was published on CNN how the American, British and some of the other soldiers tortured their detainees. I can't remember the details but it was pretty unhumane. Even though the Al Qaeda or whatever sort of people did attack the WTC but there was no way one should treat its detainees with such humiliation which would scar them for life. If everyone keeps attacking one another, it will never stop.

This world is getting crazy. I feel sometimes I am the only one left sane. Or maybe not.
Wulandari
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 25 2005, 08:45 PM)
Well, it was published on CNN how the American, British and some of the other soldiers tortured their detainees. I can't remember the details but it was pretty unhumane. Even though the Al Qaeda or whatever sort of people did attack the WTC but there was no way one should treat its detainees with such humiliation which would scar them for life. If everyone keeps attacking one another, it will never stop.

This world is getting crazy. I feel sometimes I am the only one left sane. Or maybe not.
*






My dear Caramel,

I believe it is not about WTC attack in 2001. It is about that those Iraq prisoners indeed are bad people. They are rebels from Islam Sunni who blew up thousands of Americans, and their own people, innoncent Iraq. They are war criminals.

I believe it is very difficult to treat those beasts in good way. Those people already have extreme hatred to Americans and to everybody who has different opinions. They are very dangerous people. And dangerous people like those prisoners should be treated harsh.
caramel
I was talking about the Afghans my dear. It's obvious when I mentioned Al Qaeda and WTC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/23/...ain637823.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/

There wasn't anything on the Iraqi detainees in the main post.

QUOTE
In the shrine city of Najaf, the head of a charitable organisation affiliated to radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr said a riot in Camp Bucca prison on April 1 caused US troops to open fire on some of the detainees with rubber bullets wounding an undetermined number of them.

"We condemn these acts and we ask that human right organisations intervene quickly," said Saheb al-Ameri, secretary general of the Shahidallah organisation.

The US military denied any knowledge of a riot at the camp in southern Iraq, home to 6,054 detainees, since an outbreak on January 31 in which four inmates were killed when prison guards opened fired.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) contradicted the US denial, saying the riot had been witnessed by one of its delegations.

"There was a riot at Camp Bucca on April 1. An ICRC delegation was there that day on one of its regular prisoner visits and it is now following up the situation, " said Christophe Beney, the head of the ICRC's Baghdad delegation.

According to Ameri, the disturbance was triggered when one of the detainees, a member of the Sadr movement, got sick and was denied medical treatment.

Since the riot, the detainees have had no water or electricity and were living in tents burnt during the violence, he added.

In Baghdad, a bomb went off near Abu Ghraib, another US-run prison, wounding five people, including three policemen, according to the interior ministry.

This came two days after a brazen assault by insurgents on the notorious prison where US guards humiliated and abused naked Iraqi prisoners. The attack resulted in 44 US soldiers and 13 detainees being wounded.

The US military said 40 to 60 gunmen were involved in the two-hour assault that included two car bombs and rocket propelled grenade, mortar rounds and small arms fire. It estimated that 50 of the attackers may have been either wounded or killed.

An estimated 3,400 Iraqi and Arab prisoners are being held in Abu Ghraib.

The US military said one of its soldiers was killed and another wounded on Saturday in a small arms attack by insurgents in Tal Afar, west of the main northern city of Mosul, bringing to 1,530 the number of US military personnel killed in Iraq since the US-led invasion more than two years ago.


http://www.theallineed.com/news/0504/049248.htm
Quoted from AFP a reliable news source.

Read some of these articles:

http://regimechangeiran.blogspot.com/2005/...i-american.html
Quoted from http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/53185.htm

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26706

More Iraqi Civilians Killed by US Forces Than By Insurgents, Data Shows
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0925-02.htm

QUOTE
If Islamic peoples detest America, why not let them discover democracy in their own time, rather than trying to convert them with thermobaric bombs and cruise missiles?

Quoted from one of the articles.

How true.

It's with more people like you, that this world is becoming more miserable than it already is. Violence is never a way to solve anything. If it is true that you are a grandmother, you should know that better.
ponpon
^_Wulan as a grandmama you should set a good example, you must practice what you preach in the "malay muslim" thread, that is to be civilised icon_wink.gif
Iron Malayan
Speaking of weirdos desecrating the Quran, the satanic cult Black Metal is making a comeback in Malaysia.

QUOTE
Investigate 'Black Metal' Anti-Religion Cult, Govt Told 


KUALA LUMPUR, Oct 25 (Bernama) -- A parliamentarian, Tuesday asked the Government to investigate the "Black Metal" anti-religion cult practised by a group of Malay Muslim youths who step on and burn the Al-Quran.

Datuk Mohamad Aziz (BN-Sri Gading) said the culture and trend brought in from western countries have started to creep into certain section of the Malaysian society and had diverted their true Islamic faith.

"The Malay Muslim followers of Black Metal have confessed they are satan's children. This cult, if left unchecked, will spread," he said when debating the 2006 Budget at committee stage in the Dewan Rakyat.

Mohamad asked the Islamic Development Department of Malaysia (Jakim) to give serious attention and act promptly to avoid more Malay youths from being misguided and lured into this cult.

"I thank the Mastika magazine for boldly exposing activities of the cult's followers," he said.

Describing their activities as more terrible than during the Era of Ignorance, Mohamad said it was not the time now to blame anyone but instead the relevant authorities like Jakim, Home Ministry and police must cooperate to address the problem.

Datuk Badruddin Amiruldin (BN-Jerai), who rose to interject, urged the government to take appropriate action against the followers.

Datuk Raja Ahmad Zainuddin Raja Omar (BN-Larut) questioned whether Jakim was not pro-active in this matter, thus giving rise to such cults.

"I've spoken to Jakim many times on this. Is Jakim not pro-active. Do we need to revamp Jakim?" he asked.

Datuk Mohd Said Yusof (BN-Jasin) urged the Home Ministry to ban Black Metal's magazines and books sold widely in the country.

-- BERNAMA
caramel
That is so weird. I heard that there is this Satanic Church in Bangsar where the cross is inverted. And also a few weird churches in KL.
malaccan
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 28 2005, 07:40 PM)
That is so weird. I heard that there is this Satanic Church in Bangsar where the cross is inverted. And also a few weird churches in KL.
*


Really?! Gotta ask my Bangsar kakis about this.

When I was secondary school, black T-shirts were banned from being worn in the weekends during co-curricular activites. That was at the height of the supposed satanic black metal cult. shrug.gif
Iron Malayan
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 28 2005, 07:40 PM)
That is so weird. I heard that there is this Satanic Church in Bangsar where the cross is inverted. And also a few weird churches in KL.
*
Hmm
Wulandari
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 26 2005, 09:51 AM)
I was talking about the Afghans my dear. It's obvious when I mentioned Al Qaeda and WTC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/23/...ain637823.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/

There wasn't anything on the Iraqi detainees in the main post.

QUOTE
In the shrine city of Najaf, the head of a charitable organisation affiliated to radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr said a riot in Camp Bucca prison on April 1 caused US troops to open fire on some of the detainees with rubber bullets wounding an undetermined number of them.

"We condemn these acts and we ask that human right organisations intervene quickly," said Saheb al-Ameri, secretary general of the Shahidallah organisation.

The US military denied any knowledge of a riot at the camp in southern Iraq, home to 6,054 detainees, since an outbreak on January 31 in which four inmates were killed when prison guards opened fired.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) contradicted the US denial, saying the riot had been witnessed by one of its delegations.

"There was a riot at Camp Bucca on April 1. An ICRC delegation was there that day on one of its regular prisoner visits and it is now following up the situation, " said Christophe Beney, the head of the ICRC's Baghdad delegation.

According to Ameri, the disturbance was triggered when one of the detainees, a member of the Sadr movement, got sick and was denied medical treatment.

Since the riot, the detainees have had no water or electricity and were living in tents burnt during the violence, he added.

In Baghdad, a bomb went off near Abu Ghraib, another US-run prison, wounding five people, including three policemen, according to the interior ministry.

This came two days after a brazen assault by insurgents on the notorious prison where US guards humiliated and abused naked Iraqi prisoners. The attack resulted in 44 US soldiers and 13 detainees being wounded.

The US military said 40 to 60 gunmen were involved in the two-hour assault that included two car bombs and rocket propelled grenade, mortar rounds and small arms fire. It estimated that 50 of the attackers may have been either wounded or killed.

An estimated 3,400 Iraqi and Arab prisoners are being held in Abu Ghraib.

The US military said one of its soldiers was killed and another wounded on Saturday in a small arms attack by insurgents in Tal Afar, west of the main northern city of Mosul, bringing to 1,530 the number of US military personnel killed in Iraq since the US-led invasion more than two years ago.


http://www.theallineed.com/news/0504/049248.htm
Quoted from AFP a reliable news source.

Read some of these articles:

http://regimechangeiran.blogspot.com/2005/...i-american.html
Quoted from http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/53185.htm

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26706

More Iraqi Civilians Killed by US Forces Than By Insurgents, Data Shows
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0925-02.htm

QUOTE
If Islamic peoples detest America, why not let them discover democracy in their own time, rather than trying to convert them with thermobaric bombs and cruise missiles?

Quoted from one of the articles.

How true.

It's with more people like you, that this world is becoming more miserable than it already is. Violence is never a way to solve anything. If it is true that you are a grandmother, you should know that better.
*






Violence is never a way to solve anything?

What a naive young girl !

icon_wink.gif



I give you an example from recent time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4387604.stm

QUOTE

Three Indonesian girls beheaded


By Tim Johnston
BBC News, Jakarta

OCTOBER 29, 2005

Three girls have been beheaded and another badly injured as they walked to a Christian school in Indonesia.

They were walking through a cocoa plantation near the city of Poso in central Sulawesi province when they were attacked.

This is an area that has a long history of religious violence between Muslims and Christians.

A government-brokered truce has only partially succeeded in reducing the number of incidents in recent years.

Police say the heads were found some distance from the bodies.

It is unclear what was behind the attack, but the girls attended a private Christian school and one of the heads was left outside a church leading to speculation that it might have had a religious motive.

Islamic state

Central Sulawesi and Poso in particular was the scene of bitter fighting between Muslims and Christians in 2001 and 2002.



More than 1,000 people were killed before a government-brokered truce.

Although the violence has been subdued, it has never gone away completely.

A bomb in May in the nearby town of Tentena, which is predominantly Christian, killed 22 people and injured over 30.

The fighting four years ago drew Islamic militants from all over Indonesia and many have never gone home.

Analysts say the militants have targeted central Sulawesi and believe that it could be turned into the foundation stone of an Islamic state.

The analysts have warned that the violence could resurface at any time.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...fic/4387604.stm

Published: 2005/10/29 08:32:05 GMT

© BBC MMV





3 Christian girls were beheaded by terrorist Muslims.

icon_sad.gif

Now, let's presume you and I were 2 of the girls.

Some people approach us, they want to cut our head off.

We all bring knife for protection because the area has many religious wars between Christians and Muslims. You said that you don't support violence. As a result, you didn't do anything when those Muslims want to cut your head off. On the contrary, I used my knife. I can stab one of them and run away. I safe. You were not.

icon_sad.gif

The point is: it is not about whether we support violence or not. It is about whether the use of violence is necessary or not.

You live in Malaysia or Australia. I live in Indonesia and America. Indonesia is not a safe place. It is a dangerous place. If you are not becareful, you can lose your life just for $10 cents. I am not kidding. There are so many poor people, they will stab each other just for $10 cents to eat food.

In this kind of dangerous environment like Indonesia, if you have attitude not using violence at all to protect yourself, you will always become the victims. People will treat you as easy target. You need to be tough to survive. But, it doesn't mean you must use violence to survive. It means you need to know when and where you need to use violence to protect your self from people who want to cut your head off, and what kind of violences we need to use. We need to be smart !!

Safe places like Malaysia and Australia, and your young age make you naive. It is okay icon_smile.gif . One day, when you become older, more mature, having more experiences in many different places and differenct people, you will understand my words.

icon_smile.gif
caramel
You do not know me. So, you shouldn't presume what I am and what I am not. Your selfishness and sarcasm disgusts me. You do not know what I went through life and how I solved my problems; so don't judge me.

QUOTE
The point is: it is not about whether we support violence or not. It is about whether the use of violence is necessary or not.


I never said anything about supporting violence. I just said that violence never solve anything. So by saying that are you trying to agree that "Violence never solve anything". But it is just that you felt that it is a necessity because of the world we live in today.. which is full of violence. Isn't that right? See the root of it. VIOLENCE. Until human kind can stop seeing the difference in one another. Stop being selfish.. greedy and spend more time loving one another.. violence will stop.

You chose to correct my facts and when I presented you the facts (referring to the previous posts).. you ignored it and diverted me into the topic above. How cunning. I am sorry but I am not interested in debating with you all these pesty things anymore. I find it very unproductive. Until I find myself with nothing better to do. See you.
ponpon
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 07:36 AM)
Safe places like Malaysia and Australia, and your young age make you naive. It is okay  icon_smile.gif

*


But grandmama you are contradicting yourself, icon_sad.gif

QUOTE (Wulandari)
My dear,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

There are many replies in this thread, I just try to answer one by one from the beginning. I forget you already reply the second time.

I understand that it is impossible all Muslims in Malaysia are terrorist. There must be some good Muslims, agree? 

However, what bother me is your country is a SAFE HEAVEN for terrorist Muslims who bother neighborhood countries, like mine, Thailand, Singapore and so on.

*


Malaysia is supposed to be a SAFE HEAVEN for Muslims terrorists, therefore it isn't safe at all,... am i correct ? icon_smile.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (caramel @ Oct 30 2005, 09:18 AM)
You do not know me. So, you shouldn't presume what I am and what I am not. Your selfishness and sarcasm disgusts me. You do not know what I went through life and how I solved my problems; so don't judge me.

QUOTE
The point is: it is not about whether we support violence or not. It is about whether the use of violence is necessary or not.


I never said anything about supporting violence. I just said that violence never solve anything. So by saying that are you trying to agree that "Violence never solve anything". But it is just that you felt that it is a necessity because of the world we live in today.. which is full of violence. Isn't that right? See the root of it. VIOLENCE. Until human kind can stop seeing the difference in one another. Stop being selfish.. greedy and spend more time loving one another.. violence will stop.

You chose to correct my facts and when I presented you the facts (referring to the previous posts).. you ignored it and diverted me into the topic above. How cunning. I am sorry but I am not interested in debating with you all these pesty things anymore. I find it very unproductive. Until I find myself with nothing better to do. See you.
*





The root of the problems is not violence

The root of the problems is ourselves. Being selfish, greedy, envious and racist

Violences are the results of our bad characters.

Calm down icon_smile.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (ponpon @ Oct 30 2005, 10:51 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 07:36 AM)

Safe places like Malaysia and Australia, and your young age make you naive. It is okay  icon_smile.gif

*


But grandmama you are contradicting yourself, icon_sad.gif

QUOTE (Wulandari)
My dear,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

There are many replies in this thread, I just try to answer one by one from the beginning. I forget you already reply the second time.

I understand that it is impossible all Muslims in Malaysia are terrorist. There must be some good Muslims, agree? 

However, what bother me is your country is a SAFE HEAVEN for terrorist Muslims who bother neighborhood countries, like mine, Thailand, Singapore and so on.

*


Malaysia is supposed to be a SAFE HEAVEN for Muslims terrorists, therefore it isn't safe at all,... am i correct ? icon_smile.gif
*







Are you playing words now, my dear?

icon_wink.gif

Let me explain to you..


It is correct that Malaysia and Australia are safe, safer than my country. I admit that. You just take some of my words from the whole writing and twist them.

Naughty........naughty............naughty...................




And it is true that Malaysia is a SAFE HEAVEN for Muslim terrorist.

Before your people blew up my people in Bali, helping Muslim traitors in Thailand, supporting Muslim terrorist in Philipine, your government didn't do anything to terrorist Muslims in your country. It is because your government is controlled by Muslims too. And majority of Malaysians are Muslims. Your government allow all kinds of Muslim terrorist to come to Malaysia, plan terrorist attack, and do whatever they want.

You Malaysia allow all kinds of Muslim terrorists to have fun in Malaysia, as long as they don't bother Malaysian people. It is a smart move from your government.

However, after your people do terrorist stuff in my country, in Thailand, in Philipine and in other countries, your government is under pressures from other countries. If your government doesn't do anything to suppress their own terrorist, you Malaysia will get big problems from your neighborhood. So, you Muslims have no choice but detaining some of your own terrorist, or else.

It is your own mistake, Muslims.

The way you treat Muslim terrorist in your country is just like the way you people treat beasts. You breed and spoil beasts since they were children in your country. So, when the beasts become adults, you cannot control them anymore. When your beasts started attacking other people, you Muslims act like Saints, trying to whitewash your sins. It won't work that way.

You Muslims must take care of your own beasts, before other countries come to your country and take care of them. Or, the beasts and you Muslims are the same people?
ponpon
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 11:52 AM)
Are you playing words now, my dear?

icon_wink.gif

Let me explain to you..


It is correct that Malaysia and Australia are safe, safer than my country. I admit that.  You just take some of my words from the whole writing and twist them.

Naughty........naughty............naughty...................
*


Dear Grandmama

I'm not playing with words icon_sad.gif it was never my intention to begin with,

I admire and look up to you as my idol, you are a grandmama, your life must have been a hard and challenging one to raise your childrens in a harsh eviroment of indonesia, that's why i respect you like my own grandma. icon_redface.gif

I was just merely pointing out your mistake, even an old and experienced person such as you makes mistake sometime, agree? icon_wink.gif

Everybody makes mistakes, right? It is natural.

we are still friends aren't we icon_smile.gif btw my english is not so good, so maybe i was unable to convey the meaning in my previous post correctly hence the misunderstanding icon_wink.gif

btw, accusing someone without proof is uncivillised embarassedlaugh.gif2 ....just kidding

QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 11:52 AM)
And it is true that Malaysia is a SAFE HEAVEN for Muslim terrorist.

Before your people blew up my people in Bali, helping Muslim traitors in Thailand, supporting Muslim terrorist in Philipine, your government didn't do anything to terrorist Muslims in your country. It is because your government is controlled by Muslims too. And majority of Malaysians are Muslims. Your government allow all kinds of Muslim terrorist to come to Malaysia, plan terrorist attack, and do whatever they want.

You Malaysia allow all kinds of Muslim terrorists to have fun in Malaysia, as long as they don't bother Malaysian people. It is a smart move from your government.

However, after your people do terrorist stuff in my country, in Thailand, in Philipine and in other countries, your government is under pressures from other countries. If your government doesn't do anything to suppress their own terrorist, you Malaysia will get big problems from your neighborhood. So, you Muslims have no choice but detaining some of your own terrorist, or else.

*


source please, to backup your claim wether malaysia gahmen support terrorist or not? icon_wink.gif

maybe it's true there are few muslim extrimists currently hiding in Malaysia but getting support from malaysia gahmen ? embarassedlaugh.gif lol

QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 11:52 AM)
It is your own mistake, Muslims.

The way you treat Muslim terrorist in your country is just like the way you people treat beasts. You breed and spoil beasts since they were children in your country. So, when the beasts become adults, you cannot control them anymore. When your beasts started attacking other people, you Muslims act like Saints, trying to whitewash your sins. It won't work that way.
*


But isn't this called generalization , grandmama? you agreed earlier,that there must be some good muslims not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorism ,right? icon_wink.gif

Otherwise Malaysia would not have progressed due to the sheer number of idiotic suicide bombers icon_wink.gif

QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 11:52 AM)
You Muslims must take care of your own beasts, before other countries come to your country and take care of them. Or, the beasts and you Muslims are the same people?
*


Well isn't this barbaric ? icon_sad.gif invading another country is uncivilised

How can you compare beasts and muslims together? biggrin.gif

Didn't you say, that we will be more cultured and civilised if we discuss in civilised manner instead of resorting to seditous remark icon_wink.gif
Iron Malayan
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Oct 30 2005, 07:36 AM)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4387604.stm

QUOTE

Three Indonesian girls beheaded


By Tim Johnston
BBC News, Jakarta

OCTOBER 29, 2005

Three girls have been beheaded and another badly injured as they walked to a Christian school in Indonesia.

They were walking through a cocoa plantation near the city of Poso in central Sulawesi province when they were attacked.

This is an area that has a long history of religious violence between Muslims and Christians.

A government-brokered truce has only partially succeeded in reducing the number of incidents in recent years.

Police say the heads were found some distance from the bodies.

It is unclear what was behind the attack, but the girls attended a private Christian school and one of the heads was left outside a church leading to speculation that it might have had a religious motive.

Islamic state

Central Sulawesi and Poso in particular was the scene of bitter fighting between Muslims and Christians in 2001 and 2002.



More than 1,000 people were killed before a government-brokered truce.

Although the violence has been subdued, it has never gone away completely.

A bomb in May in the nearby town of Tentena, which is predominantly Christian, killed 22 people and injured over 30.

The fighting four years ago drew Islamic militants from all over Indonesia and many have never gone home.

Analysts say the militants have targeted central Sulawesi and believe that it could be turned into the foundation stone of an Islamic state.

The analysts have warned that the violence could resurface at any time.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...fic/4387604.stm

Published: 2005/10/29 08:32:05 GMT

© BBC MMV





3 Christian girls were beheaded by terrorist Muslims.

icon_sad.gif

Now, let's presume you and I were 2 of the girls.

Some people approach us, they want to cut our head off.

We all bring knife for protection because the area has many religious wars between Christians and Muslims. You said that you don't support violence. As a result, you didn't do anything when those Muslims want to cut your head off. On the contrary, I used my knife. I can stab one of them and run away. I safe. You were not.

icon_sad.gif

The point is: it is not about whether we support violence or not. It is about whether the use of violence is necessary or not.


*


Terrorist Christians started the violence in Poso 5 yrs ago. Now its payback time.
yana19384
shivers... icon_sad.gif
johnleemk
Iron Malayan, payback? An eye for an eye and the world goes blind, Ghandi said. Islam and Christianity are about tolerance, not violence or hitting back.
ponpon
QUOTE (johnleemk @ Oct 31 2005, 12:25 PM)
Iron Malayan, payback? An eye for an eye and the world goes blind, Ghandi said. Islam and Christianity are about tolerance, not violence or hitting back.
*


You should ask grandmama Wulandari about this embarassedlaugh.gif2
Iron Malayan
QUOTE (johnleemk @ Oct 31 2005, 12:25 PM)
Iron Malayan, payback? An eye for an eye and the world goes blind, Ghandi said. Islam and Christianity are about tolerance, not violence or hitting back.
*
Paybacks are necessary not only for justice but also to send a clear warning to others.
yana19384
and hope they will really really learn...but looking back into history...we have not learned much at all
Iron Malayan
I agree.

Learning from history is extremely important

but we need to make sure the history we learn is authentic.

A large portion of history has been corrupted by the prejudice or sheer incompetence of some historians.

Thats why we should always assess the validity of every single detail we read or hear.
Wulandari
QUOTE
Ponpon said:

But isn't this called generalization , grandmama? you agreed earlier,that there must be some good muslims not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorism ,right? icon_wink.gif

Otherwise Malaysia would not have progressed due to the sheer number of idiotic suicide bombers icon_wink.gif







Yes, my dear

I agree that there are some good Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorist or support terrorist.

However, how if the number of those bad Muslims is much bigger than the number of good Muslims? And those good Muslims don't do anything to their bad brother Muslims. Does it mean that ACTUALLY the good Muslims INDIRECTLY support their bad brother Muslims ?

It means those bad Muslims and those good Muslims actually almost the same?
mmmbop
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 9 2005, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE
Ponpon said:

But isn't this called generalization , grandmama? you agreed earlier,that there must be some good muslims not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorism ,right? icon_wink.gif

Otherwise Malaysia would not have progressed due to the sheer number of idiotic suicide bombers icon_wink.gif







Yes, my dear

I agree that there are some good Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorist or support terrorist.

However, how if the number of those bad Muslims is much bigger than the number of good Muslims? And those good Muslims don't do anything to their bad brother Muslims. Does it mean that ACTUALLY the good Muslims INDIRECTLY support their bad brother Muslims ?

It means those bad Muslims and those good Muslims actually almost the same?
*



Tongue twisting..you're good.. biggthumpup.gif

And how if the number of those good muslim outnumbered the bad? lol..we can play this the whole day.. icon_wink.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (mmmbop @ Nov 10 2005, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 9 2005, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE
Ponpon said:

But isn't this called generalization , grandmama? you agreed earlier,that there must be some good muslims not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorism ,right? icon_wink.gif

Otherwise Malaysia would not have progressed due to the sheer number of idiotic suicide bombers icon_wink.gif







Yes, my dear

I agree that there are some good Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorist or support terrorist.

However, how if the number of those bad Muslims is much bigger than the number of good Muslims? And those good Muslims don't do anything to their bad brother Muslims. Does it mean that ACTUALLY the good Muslims INDIRECTLY support their bad brother Muslims ?

It means those bad Muslims and those good Muslims actually almost the same?
*



Tongue twisting..you're good.. biggthumpup.gif

And how if the number of those good muslim outnumbered the bad? lol..we can play this the whole day.. icon_wink.gif
*





Ah.......

Don't be too sensitive, my dear icon_smile.gif

I am talking based on my experiences !

When Muslim terrorists attack WTC in 2001, majority of Muslims in my country said that America deserved to be attacked in that tragedy, JUST BECAUSE ARROGANCY EXCUSE. In means majority Muslims in my country supported the murders of 3,000 civilians in that event, majority of 230 million people. In WTC 2001 attack, 3,000 civilians were cowardly murdered by those terrorists.

Supporting the murders, is almost the same by doing the murder

What do you think, my dear?


icon_smile.gif
flipcombatmedic
my question is if a christian (or he might not even be) take a piece of book and "violate" it, how is that no different from burning of american flags (pieces of cloth) and then televsied to many americans? and that $hit happens everyday in the middle east and the rest of the world. and i'm sure there are muslim that do more than burn flags, ie cut peoples heads off. and mind you some of these "prisoners" were in fact al Qaeda operatives who mgiht have been related to and for using civilian planes and ramming it into American buildings.

what i'm saying my friends is let's not get too riled up by news. remember that actions are actions by individuals.
samheisfl
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 10 2005, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE (mmmbop @ Nov 10 2005, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 9 2005, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE
Ponpon said:

But isn't this called generalization , grandmama? you agreed earlier,that there must be some good muslims not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorism ,right? icon_wink.gif

Otherwise Malaysia would not have progressed due to the sheer number of idiotic suicide bombers icon_wink.gif







Yes, my dear

I agree that there are some good Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorist or support terrorist.

However, how if the number of those bad Muslims is much bigger than the number of good Muslims? And those good Muslims don't do anything to their bad brother Muslims. Does it mean that ACTUALLY the good Muslims INDIRECTLY support their bad brother Muslims ?

It means those bad Muslims and those good Muslims actually almost the same?
*



Tongue twisting..you're good.. biggthumpup.gif

And how if the number of those good muslim outnumbered the bad? lol..we can play this the whole day.. icon_wink.gif
*





Ah.......

Don't be too sensitive, my dear icon_smile.gif

I am talking based on my experiences !

When Muslim terrorists attack WTC in 2001, majority of Muslims in my country said that America deserved to be attacked in that tragedy, JUST BECAUSE ARROGANCY EXCUSE. In means majority Muslims in my country supported the murders of 3,000 civilians in that event, majority of 230 million people. In WTC 2001 attack, 3,000 civilians were cowardly murdered by those terrorists.

Supporting the murders, is almost the same by doing the murder

What do you think, my dear?


icon_smile.gif
*



Well.. When US attacked Iraq, where the casualties among the innocents a few times higher than the WTC casualties... 30,000 casualties? I think its ok for you isn't it? Don't you think that why america was attacked..? Because more than 3,000 people died in WTC, another 30,000 muslims must died as a revenge... Hmmm... Interesting Granma...

Besides that, not only the muslims would said that America deserved to be attacked. The southern american expressed the same way... Hugo Chavez...? Well, i think they are christians nations..

It is not merely because of religions... but the super powers nation is to arrogant... Feels like they are invisible.. but not.. God is on our side...

Peace..granma.. peace.. asskick.gif-
Icez
Well, u havent count the numbers on how many people died in the war rite..iraqis war..duhh, i lost my countin..anyone got a calculater confused.gif ?
Iron Malayan
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Nov 10 2005, 01:06 PM)
what i'm saying my friends is let's not get too riled up by news. remember that actions are actions by individuals.
*
True dat.
Wulandari
QUOTE (samheisfl @ Nov 11 2005, 09:11 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 10 2005, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE (mmmbop @ Nov 10 2005, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 9 2005, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE
Ponpon said:

But isn't this called generalization , grandmama? you agreed earlier,that there must be some good muslims not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorism ,right? icon_wink.gif

Otherwise Malaysia would not have progressed due to the sheer number of idiotic suicide bombers icon_wink.gif







Yes, my dear

I agree that there are some good Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorist or support terrorist.

However, how if the number of those bad Muslims is much bigger than the number of good Muslims? And those good Muslims don't do anything to their bad brother Muslims. Does it mean that ACTUALLY the good Muslims INDIRECTLY support their bad brother Muslims ?

It means those bad Muslims and those good Muslims actually almost the same?
*



Tongue twisting..you're good.. biggthumpup.gif

And how if the number of those good muslim outnumbered the bad? lol..we can play this the whole day.. icon_wink.gif
*





Ah.......

Don't be too sensitive, my dear icon_smile.gif

I am talking based on my experiences !

When Muslim terrorists attack WTC in 2001, majority of Muslims in my country said that America deserved to be attacked in that tragedy, JUST BECAUSE ARROGANCY EXCUSE. In means majority Muslims in my country supported the murders of 3,000 civilians in that event, majority of 230 million people. In WTC 2001 attack, 3,000 civilians were cowardly murdered by those terrorists.

Supporting the murders, is almost the same by doing the murder

What do you think, my dear?


icon_smile.gif
*



Well.. When US attacked Iraq, where the casualties among the innocents a few times higher than the WTC casualties... 30,000 casualties? I think its ok for you isn't it? Don't you think that why america was attacked..? Because more than 3,000 people died in WTC, another 30,000 muslims must died as a revenge... Hmmm... Interesting Granma...

Besides that, not only the muslims would said that America deserved to be attacked. The southern american expressed the same way... Hugo Chavez...? Well, i think they are christians nations..

It is not merely because of religions... but the super powers nation is to arrogant... Feels like they are invisible.. but not.. God is on our side...

Peace..granma.. peace.. asskick.gif-

*







If Muslims blew up 3,000 innoncent people in WTC, those Muslims deliberately murdered those civilians.

If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".

It means Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians.

It is a big difference !!

******************

Hugo Chavez is a "left wing".

He uses anti American sentiments to get sympathy from poor people in his country.

It is politics!!



Besides, I believe it is barbaric if people use "arrogancy" reason to murder other people.

How if some people who are poorer than Muslims in Malaysia or Middle East countries use "arrogancy" excuse to kill those Muslims? Those poor people can say that those rich Muslims are arrogant for whatever reasons.

What do you think about this?
mmmbop
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 22 2005, 12:34 PM)
If Muslims blew up 3,000 innoncent people in WTC, those Muslims deliberately murdered those civilians.

If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".

It means Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians.

It is a big difference !!

******************

Hugo Chavez is a "left wing".

He uses anti American sentiments to get sympathy from poor people in his country.

It is politics!!



Besides, I believe it is barbaric if people use "arrogancy" reason to murder other people.

How if some people who are poorer than Muslims in Malaysia or Middle East countries use "arrogancy" excuse to kill those Muslims? Those poor people can say that those rich Muslims are arrogant for whatever reasons.

What do you think about this?
*


Relax..

And the reason for Us intrusion is..?lol.. i think that's arrogant to take the world matters in your hand alone..you side with US i'm not surprised because you seems to carry the same policy like them, anti-Islam..while Chavez plays with politics and US not?aiyoo..open your eyes.guess you live longer than us(you said that) for nothing..
samheisfl
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 22 2005, 12:34 PM)
If Muslims blew up 3,000 innoncent people in WTC, those Muslims deliberately murdered those civilians.

If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".

It means Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians.

It is a big difference !!

******************

Hugo Chavez is a "left wing".

He uses anti American sentiments to get sympathy from poor people in his country.

It is politics!!



Besides, I believe it is barbaric if people use "arrogancy" reason to murder other people.

How if some people who are poorer than Muslims in Malaysia or Middle East countries use "arrogancy" excuse to kill those Muslims? Those poor people can say that those rich Muslims are arrogant for whatever reasons.

What do you think about this?
*


Well granma, why America have to attack Iraq at first. Infact, when the WTC were attacked, it doesn't have anything to do with Iraq. The US is making stories that iraq have Weapon of Mass Destruction (WMD). Actually they already knew there no such WMD in Iraq. What is the purpose US do it? For revenge maybe. Anyway, US is a christian country.

You said that
QUOTE
"Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians"
. Well, they bomb the hole town of fallujah and you said it is ok... Hmm interesting... I think Christian doesn't teach you these.. you refer at the other topic.. i've posted something about this..


QUOTE
If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".


May be the bullets have no eye.. but the one that shoot has eyes isn't it.. ? The US marines has eyes and i don't think they are blind. besides that, they not only use eyesless bullet but they also use guided bombs or bombs with eyes (in case if you don't understand it). still, thousands of people died.. hmm... how funny that was.. And.. there will be no insurgents if the US doesn't attack the iraq at first. Everything was fine in Iraq before they invaded iraq. Well... i believe that US doesn't represent the whole Christians, but they are christians.

The late Pope John Paul also criticized their action... Hmm... interesting.. He is head of the entire christian but still critic the most powerfull christian country.. Shouldn't he be supporting the US since the US DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilian? May be he should say its ok to kill the civillians.. god is on our side.
But he doesn't said that. Or maybe you never follow the Pope words.

So what's similarity between USA and the terrorist? Both are terrorist.

******
Hugo Chavez

Yes... Maybe he use US as his political tool in his country. But why he has followers outside of his country... besides Cuba of course? It is because US is pressing and griping and killing every country in the world!!

Infact, there are also a christian terrorist in indonesia isn't it. It is ambon right? Well.. Three christians student were beheaded before.. But what about the other 2000 muslims that was killed by the christian terrorist during the Ambon clash back a few years ago..? I think it is ok for you.. right?

******
Arrogant is the most suitable words for the powerhouse country... and i think most people agree with it...

Religion is not the cause.. But when religion becomes political tools, it can lead to what happen now..
And to all my christian friends, I am not an anti-christian. What i'm trying to say is every religion has their own terrorist.. I hope all of you doesn't become so prejudice.. thats all

All of these are humans factor..

Well granma... What do you think? peace... kick.gif
ponpon
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 21 2005, 11:34 PM)
If Muslims blew up 3,000 innoncent people in WTC, those Muslims deliberately murdered those civilians.

If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".

It means Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians.

It is a big difference !!
*


Well grandmama , if i were to go by your rules and logic on how you define murderer, then i can safely say that the muslims terrorists and american soldiers in iraq are basicly the same. icon_smile.gif

if the american did not deliberately kill iraqi civillians and their action is justified then the same thing can be said for those muslims who destroyed the WTC. They did not intentionally aim at the civillians , they were targetting the US govermnent, but unfortunately many innocent people were caught up in the attack and thus unavoidable ($hit happens ya know icon_neutral.gif ).

if you said bullets are eyeless and it wasn't US government fault for the high iraqi civillian death toll, then you must also agree that the 9/11 muslim terrorists shouldn't be blamed for the death of innocent people either, agree? icon_smile.gif

If stray bullets or guided bombs are unpredictable then certainly explosion caused by the plane crash is certainly even more unpredictable and uncontrollable, agree? Maybe, the muslims terrorists were already trying to minimize casualties by targetting only important US landmarks otherwise they would have attacked US nuclear reactors when they clearly had the chance. icon_neutral.gif

So simply put, the muslims terrorist who blew up WTC were fighting against the US government like what the US soldiers are doing right now in Iraq (againts the insurgents) but sadly many innocent people are caught up in the cross-fire. So according to your logic , there shouldn't be any difference at all between the muslim terrorists and US soldiers, right? icon_wink.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (ponpon @ Nov 22 2005, 11:01 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 21 2005, 11:34 PM)
If Muslims blew up 3,000 innoncent people in WTC, those Muslims deliberately murdered those civilians.

If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".

It means Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians.

It is a big difference !!
*


Well grandmama , if i were to go by your rules and logic on how you define murderer, then i can safely say that the muslims terrorists and american soldiers in iraq are basicly the same. icon_smile.gif

if the american did not deliberately kill iraqi civillians and their action is justified then the same thing can be said for those muslims who destroyed the WTC. They did not intentionally aim at the civillians , they were targetting the US govermnent, but unfortunately many innocent people were caught up in the attack and thus unavoidable ($hit happens ya know icon_neutral.gif ).

if you said bullets are eyeless and it wasn't US government fault for the high iraqi civillian death toll, then you must also agree that the 9/11 muslim terrorists shouldn't be blamed for the death of innocent people either, agree? icon_smile.gif

If stray bullets or guided bombs are unpredictable then certainly explosion caused by the plane crash is certainly even more unpredictable and uncontrollable, agree? Maybe, the muslims terrorists were already trying to minimize casualties by targetting only important US landmarks otherwise they would have attacked US nuclear reactors when they clearly had the chance. icon_neutral.gif

So simply put, the muslims terrorist who blew up WTC were fighting against the US government like what the US soldiers are doing right now in Iraq (againts the insurgents) but sadly many innocent people are caught up in the cross-fire. So according to your logic , there shouldn't be any difference at all between the muslim terrorists and US soldiers, right? icon_wink.gif
*







My dear pon pon

I believe those Muslims already knew that people who work in WTC buildings are civilians, not US armies. So, those Muslims DELIBERATELY murdered civilians with cold blood.

I don't believe US armies deliberately kill civilians in Iraq. US has strict laws about killing civilians. No one is above the law. Besides, some US armies who abused Iraq people were put in court and sent to jail.

icon_smile.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (samheisfl @ Nov 22 2005, 05:33 AM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 22 2005, 12:34 PM)
If Muslims blew up 3,000 innoncent people in WTC, those Muslims deliberately murdered those civilians.

If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".

It means Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians.

It is a big difference !!

******************

Hugo Chavez is a "left wing".

He uses anti American sentiments to get sympathy from poor people in his country.

It is politics!!



Besides, I believe it is barbaric if people use "arrogancy" reason to murder other people.

How if some people who are poorer than Muslims in Malaysia or Middle East countries use "arrogancy" excuse to kill those Muslims? Those poor people can say that those rich Muslims are arrogant for whatever reasons.

What do you think about this?
*


Well granma, why America have to attack Iraq at first. Infact, when the WTC were attacked, it doesn't have anything to do with Iraq. The US is making stories that iraq have Weapon of Mass Destruction (WMD). Actually they already knew there no such WMD in Iraq. What is the purpose US do it? For revenge maybe. Anyway, US is a christian country.

You said that
QUOTE
"Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilians"
. Well, they bomb the hole town of fallujah and you said it is ok... Hmm interesting... I think Christian doesn't teach you these.. you refer at the other topic.. i've posted something about this..


QUOTE
If America killed thousands of civilians in Iraq, it is not because Americans are murderers, but because Americans try to kill those insurgents/army of Saddam Husseein and those civilians were killed because bullets have no "eye".


May be the bullets have no eye.. but the one that shoot has eyes isn't it.. ? The US marines has eyes and i don't think they are blind. besides that, they not only use eyesless bullet but they also use guided bombs or bombs with eyes (in case if you don't understand it). still, thousands of people died.. hmm... how funny that was.. And.. there will be no insurgents if the US doesn't attack the iraq at first. Everything was fine in Iraq before they invaded iraq. Well... i believe that US doesn't represent the whole Christians, but they are christians.

The late Pope John Paul also criticized their action... Hmm... interesting.. He is head of the entire christian but still critic the most powerfull christian country.. Shouldn't he be supporting the US since the US DO NOT DELIBERATELY killed those civilian? May be he should say its ok to kill the civillians.. god is on our side.
But he doesn't said that. Or maybe you never follow the Pope words.

So what's similarity between USA and the terrorist? Both are terrorist.

******
Hugo Chavez

Yes... Maybe he use US as his political tool in his country. But why he has followers outside of his country... besides Cuba of course? It is because US is pressing and griping and killing every country in the world!!

Infact, there are also a christian terrorist in indonesia isn't it. It is ambon right? Well.. Three christians student were beheaded before.. But what about the other 2000 muslims that was killed by the christian terrorist during the Ambon clash back a few years ago..? I think it is ok for you.. right?

******
Arrogant is the most suitable words for the powerhouse country... and i think most people agree with it...

Religion is not the cause.. But when religion becomes political tools, it can lead to what happen now..
And to all my christian friends, I am not an anti-christian. What i'm trying to say is every religion has their own terrorist.. I hope all of you doesn't become so prejudice.. thats all

All of these are humans factor..

Well granma... What do you think? peace... kick.gif
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Talking about Fallujah.......

America bomb Fallujah because Fallujah is the center of insurgents who blow up US armies and Iraq civilians.

Those terrorist in Fallujah are murderers.

You don't defend murderers, do you?

asskick.gif-
ponpon
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 22 2005, 12:14 PM)
My dear pon pon

I believe those Muslims already knew that people who work in WTC buildings are civilians, not US armies. So, those Muslims DELIBERATELY murdered civilians with cold blood.

I don't believe US armies deliberately kill civilians in Iraq. US has strict laws about killing civilians. No one is above the law. Besides, some US armies who abused Iraq people were put in court and sent to jail.

icon_smile.gif
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My dear grandmama

I was merely trying to imitate(sorry for the lack of better word, i have poor english embarassedlaugh.gif2 ) your way of thinking. icon_wink.gif .

yes of course those muslims terrorist already knew there were innocent people in WTC just like how US soldiers knew they were innocent iraqi in Fallujah, but the fact still remains, american soldier and muslim terrorists murder innocent people hence they are same icon_wink.gif (either they should be called heroes or murderers i will leave it open for intepretation)

Of course i don't believe US soldiers kill innocent cvillians on purpose either, well the same goes for the muslims terrorist , i'm sure as hell these people have a very strong reason to fight for whatever reason be it wrong or right . icon_wink.gif
mmmbop
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 23 2005, 01:18 AM)
Talking about Fallujah.......

America bomb Fallujah because Fallujah is the center of insurgents who blow up US armies and Iraq civilians.

Those terrorist in Fallujah are murderers.

You don't defend murderers, do you?

asskick.gif-
*


I guess when you spot terrorists in some location, everyone living there must be terrorists.lol lame theory. i guess you support mass killing, Hitler staunch supporter? icon_smile.gif
samheisfl
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 23 2005, 01:18 AM)
Talking about Fallujah.......

America bomb Fallujah because Fallujah is the center of insurgents who blow up US armies and Iraq civilians.

Those terrorist in Fallujah are murderers.

You don't defend murderers, do you?

asskick.gif-
*


Now i know... You are saying that US doesn't kill innocent humans in iraq..hmmm... They killing cows and goats i think... maybe some hens and pigs over there... that's why you don't call them murderers right?

They've kill far more what the terrorist has done at WTC... but you are saying that the US is not a murderer... are you stupid or something? let me tell you defination of murderer..

Well according to Meriam-Webster
QUOTE
murderer

Main Entry: mur·der·er
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r-&r
Function: noun
: one who murders; especially : one who commits the crime of murder  

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=murderer


Ok than... What is murder?
according to Meriam-Webster

QUOTE
murder
murder[1,noun]murder[2,verb]bloody murderself-murder  

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>  
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/murder


I don't think there is any dictionary in the world that said murderer words is excluding the US army

Well.. It seems that you are the one that defending the murderer...
You don't defend murderers, do you?

Back to the root Q... Why did US attacked Iraq at first? If they don't attacked Iraq, there will be no fallujah case...

QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 23 2005, 01:18 AM)
asskick.gif-

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Wah grandma.. can you really do that... embarassedlaugh.gif2 embarassedlaugh.gif2
better becareful.. if not your backbone crush...

Peace... granma... peace... kick.gif
Wulandari
QUOTE (ponpon @ Nov 22 2005, 01:55 PM)
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 22 2005, 12:14 PM)
My dear pon pon

I believe those Muslims already knew that people who work in WTC buildings are civilians, not US armies. So, those Muslims DELIBERATELY murdered civilians with cold blood.

I don't believe US armies deliberately kill civilians in Iraq. US has strict laws about killing civilians. No one is above the law. Besides, some US armies who abused Iraq people were put in court and sent to jail.

icon_smile.gif
*


My dear grandmama

I was merely trying to imitate(sorry for the lack of better word, i have poor english embarassedlaugh.gif2 ) your way of thinking. icon_wink.gif .

yes of course those muslims terrorist already knew there were innocent people in WTC just like how US soldiers knew they were innocent iraqi in Fallujah, but the fact still remains, american soldier and muslim terrorists murder innocent people hence they are same icon_wink.gif (either they should be called heroes or murderers i will leave it open for intepretation)

Of course i don't believe US soldiers kill innocent cvillians on purpose either, well the same goes for the muslims terrorist , i'm sure as hell these people have a very strong reason to fight for whatever reason be it wrong or right .
icon_wink.gif
*







Muslims don't kill civilians on purpose?

Interesting !!

I find a news today in which Iraq insurgents want to blow up sick people in hospital and in a busy market.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4465692.stm


QUOTE
Many killed in Iraq car bombing



At least 30 people were killed and 27 wounded when a car bomb exploded outside a hospital in a town south of Baghdad, officials say.

The bomb was detonated as two Iraqi police cars drew up near the general hospital in Mahmudiya, about 20km (12 miles) outside Baghdad.

A US military convoy passing by was also hit by the blast.

On Thursday evening a car bomb exploded in a busy market in Hilla, killing at least two people and injuring more.

At least 13 were injured in the blast, which occurred when a parked car exploded at about 1800 (1500 GMT) in the mainly Shia town, police said.


Civilian deaths


Mahmudiya is a mixed Sunni-Shia town in a region where insurgents have launched many attacks on US-led forces.

"At this time it appears that four of our soldiers were wounded but they are not life-threatening injuries," Sergeant David Abrams said of the US troops hurt in the attack.

Several Iraqi policemen were killed in the blast.

Women and children were also among the many civilian casualties, including at least one medic at the hospital's emergency centre.

"I was leaving the hospital with my one-and-a-half-year-old son in my arms when the explosion happened," Huda Ali told the AFP news agency.

"I was knocked down by the force of the blast and when I came to, my son was no longer in my arms. I found him among the dead."

The BBC's correspondent in Baghdad, Jim Muir, says that unlike many of the horrendous bomb attacks over the past week, the attack in Mahmudiya does not seem to have been aimed at the civilian population as such but at the Iraqi police.

Nonetheless, it is the civilians who have paid the bulk of the price, our correspondent says.

'Insurgents' last stand'

Laith Kubba, spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari, told reporters that insurgent attacks are likely to increase in the run-up to December's parliamentary elections.

He predicted that Muslim extremists and militants loyal to Saddam Hussein would make their last stand.

"Muslim extremists will be surrounded then wiped out," Mr Kubba said, although he conceded that it would not happen quickly.

In other developments, three US soldiers from Task Force Baghdad were killed in two separate attacks on military patrols in Baghdad on Wednesday, the US military said in a statement.

One soldier was killed in central Baghdad, while two others were killed in the south-west of the city.

An Iraqi soldier was also killed on Wednesday when a roadside bomb exploded in Khalidiya, near Falluja, police said.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ast/4465692.stm

Published: 2005/11/24 16:25:00 GMT


© BBC MMV




I am curious............

What kind of reasons those Iraq insurgets have when they blew up civilians?

What do you think, my dear?


********************


QUOTE
Samheisfl said:

Now i know... You are saying that US doesn't kill innocent humans in iraq..hmmm... They killing cows and goats i think... maybe some hens and pigs over there... that's why you don't call them murderers right?

They've kill far more what the terrorist has done at WTC... but you are saying that the US is not a murderer... are you stupid or something? let me tell you defination of murderer..





Here we go again...................... icon_wink.gif

Like I said before...........

Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY kill civilians in Iraq. Bombs don't have "eye". Americans aim those Iraq insurgents/Saddams' army, but mistakes happen.

However, those terrorist Muslims DELIBERATELY aim innoncent people/civilians in WTC attacks. Those Muslims knew that WTC buildings were occupied by civilians, not US armies.

Is it clear now, my dear?

asskick.gif-

Peace, my dear, peace

beerchug.gif
ponpon
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Nov 24 2005, 04:14 PM)
Americans DO NOT DELIBERATELY kill civilians in Iraq. Bombs don't have "eye".

*


you are hilarious..
samheisfl
Patience Sam..!!! Patience.. cool30.gif cool30.gif
And for every body also... beerchug.gif

Mengalah tak bererti kalah..
Wulandari
QUOTE (samheisfl @ Nov 25 2005, 02:54 AM)
Patience Sam..!!! Patience.. cool30.gif  cool30.gif
And for every body also...  beerchug.gif

Mengalah tak bererti kalah..
*





confused.gif

My dear,

It is not about lose or win

It is about confessing your sins and repent them

Trust me !!

Once you repent your sins, you will be better people. icon_smile.gif
samheisfl
QUOTE (Wulandari @ Dec 24 2005, 04:02 PM)
QUOTE (samheisfl @ Nov 25 2005, 02:54 AM)
Patience Sam..!!! Patience.. cool30.gif  cool30.gif
And for every body also...  beerchug.gif

Mengalah tak bererti kalah..
*





confused.gif

My dear,

It is not about lose or win

It is about confessing your sins and repent them

Trust me !!

Once you repent your sins, you will be better people. icon_smile.gif
*




My sin? confused.gif
Really don't understand...
Confessing my sin..? confused.gif
Be a better people..? confused.gif
Maybe i should say - Mengalah tak bererti salah.. biggthumpup.gif
isaax
seems like nobody's religion's having a good time.

Christians kena killed by Muslims, Jews/US forces oppressing Muslims, and Buddha statues being bombed by Taliban d!ckheads... the end of world is near.
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