Full Version: Dialects
I get confused. Everyone tells me mandarin and cantonese are the only dialects but then i hear about these other types -shurg
People who say that Mandarin and Cantonese are the only dialects are stoopid.
I've heard there's somewhere around 50 languages, and 1500 dialects
Cantonese and Mandarin are the two biggest languages, and get the most (and usually, only) attention in North America
I believe the next two largest are Hakka and Hokkien
Cantonese and Mandarin are the two biggest languages, and get the most (and usually, only) attention in North America
I believe the next two largest are Hakka and Hokkien
Mandarin is the official language of China.
Cantonese is a dialect of Mandarin.
Cantonese is a dialect of Mandarin.
Cantonese is a dialect of Chinese
Mandarin is a dialect itself but later adopted as official language for Chinese.
Mandarin is a dialect itself but later adopted as official language for Chinese.
There's a lot like you said, it's just not only mandarin and cantonese.
what else is there besides mandarin & cantonese?
i read somewhere that even though chinese have many languages they still managed to use a universal writing script, is that true? if so, that's pretty cool. & how did they manage to do that?
i read somewhere that even though chinese have many languages they still managed to use a universal writing script, is that true? if so, that's pretty cool. & how did they manage to do that?
QUOTE (dalawapo @ Mar 16 2004, 06:15 PM)
what else is there besides mandarin & cantonese?
i read somewhere that even though chinese have many languages they still managed to use a universal writing script, is that true? if so, that's pretty cool. & how did they manage to do that?
i read somewhere that even though chinese have many languages they still managed to use a universal writing script, is that true? if so, that's pretty cool. & how did they manage to do that?
No they do not use an universal writing scrips. Manchus, Mongols, Qidans, and Huis had developed their own systems. However, they were all assimilated into the Han culture. Most of their scripts are now literaly dead.
There are seven Chinese dialect families, Mandarin covers everywhere north of the Chang Jiang (Yangtze River) and the other six, Min (Taiwanese, Fujianese), Gan, Wu (Shanghainese), Xiang, Yue (Cantonese), and Kejia (Hakka) cover southern China.
There are less variations between different sub-dialects of Mandarin such as Northeastern Mandarin, Southwestern Mandarin and Norther Mandarin. But the variations between different sub-dialects of southern dialects such as Yue (Cantonese) or Min (Fujianese) are more different.
Like others have mentioned before, Mandarin is the official Chinese dialect and when people say Chinese (as in language) they are refering to (or at least should be) Mandarin. In China today, except for the older generation (60+), everyone speak Mandarin either as their native or at least second language. So you can get around with just knowing Mandarin. However, many southern regions such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, or Shenzhen (near Hong Kong) still have many people who prefer to speak their own native dialect with each other and only Mandarin to non-Shanghainese or non-Cantonese speakers.
Also, someone mentioned that Chinese has a "universal writing script" and he is more or less correct. It's called Hanzi. This was unified back in Qin Dynasty, more than 2200 years ago. However, written Hanzi is based on Mandarin. "Extra characters" (about 100) have been developed to fit the Cantonese and other southern dialects.
There are less variations between different sub-dialects of Mandarin such as Northeastern Mandarin, Southwestern Mandarin and Norther Mandarin. But the variations between different sub-dialects of southern dialects such as Yue (Cantonese) or Min (Fujianese) are more different.
Like others have mentioned before, Mandarin is the official Chinese dialect and when people say Chinese (as in language) they are refering to (or at least should be) Mandarin. In China today, except for the older generation (60+), everyone speak Mandarin either as their native or at least second language. So you can get around with just knowing Mandarin. However, many southern regions such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, or Shenzhen (near Hong Kong) still have many people who prefer to speak their own native dialect with each other and only Mandarin to non-Shanghainese or non-Cantonese speakers.
Also, someone mentioned that Chinese has a "universal writing script" and he is more or less correct. It's called Hanzi. This was unified back in Qin Dynasty, more than 2200 years ago. However, written Hanzi is based on Mandarin. "Extra characters" (about 100) have been developed to fit the Cantonese and other southern dialects.
QUOTE
Mandarin is the official language of China.
Cantonese is a dialect of Mandarin.
Cantonese is a dialect of Mandarin.
Right and wrong. Mandarin IS the official language of the country. As a matter of fact, mandarin transliterated means "country's language." But it was just a northern Chinese dialect. It was chosen as the national language owing more to the contemporaneous political base at the time rather than any linguistic consideration.
Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible.
After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons. The world was left with the impression that Cantonese was the language of China, when in fact, it is only one of several main dialects (as astutely noted by KULONG). Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world.
Ralph
QUOTE (Ralphrepo @ Mar 18 2004, 10:24 AM)
Right and wrong. Mandarin IS the official language of the country. As a matter of fact, mandarin transliterated means "country's language." But it was just a northern Chinese dialect. It was chosen as the national language owing more to the contemporaneous political base at the time rather than any linguistic consideration.
Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible.
After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons. The world was left with the impression that Cantonese was the language of China, when in fact, it is only one of several main dialects (as astutely noted by KULONG). Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world.
Ralph
Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible.
After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons. The world was left with the impression that Cantonese was the language of China, when in fact, it is only one of several main dialects (as astutely noted by KULONG). Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world.
Ralph
I've always thought that Pu-tong-hwa was chosen as the official PRC language by Sun-Yat-Sen b/c of its simplicity and ease of learning for the foreigners? As my mandarin teacher has told me the 4 tones compared to the 9 in Cantonese or whatever in the others.
I think Cantonese had more early exposure due to the two territories under foreign rule, HK and Macau are Cantonese speaking. Lack of freedom of movement during the Iron Curtain years of the cold war prevented much Mandarin from being exposed globally whereas HK or Macaunese citizens had the chance to travel and expose the language to the world.
[quote=Ralphrepo]Mandarin IS the official language of the country. As a matter of fact, mandarin transliterated means "country's language."[.quote]
No, Mandarin has several different names in Chinese depending on where you are from. In mainland China, it's called Putonghua, which means the "common language" or "mutual language". In Taiwan it's called Guoyu, which means the "national language". In Singapore and oversea Chinese community, it's called Huayu, or "Chinese language". There is also another term for Mandarin that is becoming the official name for Mandarin, which is Hanyu, or "language of the Han ethnic", this is more politically correct because Chinese have 56 ethnic minority groups who may not speak Mandarin or any Chinese dialects as their native language.
[quote=Ralphrepo]But it was just a northern Chinese dialect. It was chosen as the national language owing more to the contemporaneous political base at the time rather than any linguistic consideration. [/quote]
Mandarin in its modern form didn't really even exist a couple hundred years ago. Mandarin isn't truly a dialect but partially an "artificial" language. Mandarin IS heavily based on Beijinghua (Beijing dialect) with some modifications. It was chosen as the national language not just for political reasons but also its simplicity and the fact that Beijinghua, or also called Guanhua (dialect of government officials) have been used by the court for hundreds of years.
[quote=Ralphrepo]Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible. [/quote]
You are right on the spot except it's Guangzhou, not "GuangZhao".
[quote=Ralphrepo]After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons.[/quote]
The ROC did NOT "become" the PRC. As a matter of fact, I am in Taoyuan, Taiwan, ROC right now!
[quote=Ralphrepo]Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world. [/quote]
Mandarin has already become the common Chinese language throughout the world. I think it'd be quite difficult to find an university around the world that doesn't teach Mandarin, but another dialect. Also, immigration from PRC isn't and won't be the only reason why Mandarin will be more widespread, it's also because of political and cultural reasons. Also, don't forget that Chinese from Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well.
[quote=Hiroki]I've always thought that Pu-tong-hwa was chosen as the official PRC language by Sun-Yat-Sen b/c of its simplicity and ease of learning for the foreigners? As my mandarin teacher has told me the 4 tones compared to the 9 in Cantonese or whatever in the others.[/quote]
Yes, but there was a vote on this issue. It wasn't decided by Dr. Sun Yat-sen alone. According to some Cantonese-speakers, the vote was a close-call. But I have never heard of it being a "close-call" or anything about it except for the fact Mandarin won the vote. -shurg
[quote=Hiroki]I think Cantonese had more early exposure due to the two territories under foreign rule, HK and Macau are Cantonese speaking. Lack of freedom of movement during the Iron Curtain years of the cold war prevented much Mandarin from being exposed globally whereas HK or Macaunese citizens had the chance to travel and expose the language to the world.[/quote]
As I mentioned earlier, Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well. Immigration FROM Taiwan has decreased over the years due to better situation in Taiwan (heck, I haven't been back in 7 years and it's so much better here I don't even want to go back to the U.S.) However, during the 70's and 80's, Taiwan was still considered a "developing country" but its economy JUST took off. Therefore, people had money and Taiwan wasn't that great yet so they left.
No, Mandarin has several different names in Chinese depending on where you are from. In mainland China, it's called Putonghua, which means the "common language" or "mutual language". In Taiwan it's called Guoyu, which means the "national language". In Singapore and oversea Chinese community, it's called Huayu, or "Chinese language". There is also another term for Mandarin that is becoming the official name for Mandarin, which is Hanyu, or "language of the Han ethnic", this is more politically correct because Chinese have 56 ethnic minority groups who may not speak Mandarin or any Chinese dialects as their native language.
[quote=Ralphrepo]But it was just a northern Chinese dialect. It was chosen as the national language owing more to the contemporaneous political base at the time rather than any linguistic consideration. [/quote]
Mandarin in its modern form didn't really even exist a couple hundred years ago. Mandarin isn't truly a dialect but partially an "artificial" language. Mandarin IS heavily based on Beijinghua (Beijing dialect) with some modifications. It was chosen as the national language not just for political reasons but also its simplicity and the fact that Beijinghua, or also called Guanhua (dialect of government officials) have been used by the court for hundreds of years.
[quote=Ralphrepo]Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible. [/quote]
You are right on the spot except it's Guangzhou, not "GuangZhao".
[quote=Ralphrepo]After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons.[/quote]
The ROC did NOT "become" the PRC. As a matter of fact, I am in Taoyuan, Taiwan, ROC right now!
[quote=Ralphrepo]Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world. [/quote]
Mandarin has already become the common Chinese language throughout the world. I think it'd be quite difficult to find an university around the world that doesn't teach Mandarin, but another dialect. Also, immigration from PRC isn't and won't be the only reason why Mandarin will be more widespread, it's also because of political and cultural reasons. Also, don't forget that Chinese from Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well.
[quote=Hiroki]I've always thought that Pu-tong-hwa was chosen as the official PRC language by Sun-Yat-Sen b/c of its simplicity and ease of learning for the foreigners? As my mandarin teacher has told me the 4 tones compared to the 9 in Cantonese or whatever in the others.[/quote]
Yes, but there was a vote on this issue. It wasn't decided by Dr. Sun Yat-sen alone. According to some Cantonese-speakers, the vote was a close-call. But I have never heard of it being a "close-call" or anything about it except for the fact Mandarin won the vote. -shurg
[quote=Hiroki]I think Cantonese had more early exposure due to the two territories under foreign rule, HK and Macau are Cantonese speaking. Lack of freedom of movement during the Iron Curtain years of the cold war prevented much Mandarin from being exposed globally whereas HK or Macaunese citizens had the chance to travel and expose the language to the world.[/quote]
As I mentioned earlier, Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well. Immigration FROM Taiwan has decreased over the years due to better situation in Taiwan (heck, I haven't been back in 7 years and it's so much better here I don't even want to go back to the U.S.) However, during the 70's and 80's, Taiwan was still considered a "developing country" but its economy JUST took off. Therefore, people had money and Taiwan wasn't that great yet so they left.
I am not going to even bother responding. Kulong consistently says it before I can get a reply off. Therefore Kulong is da man.
[quote=Kulong,Mar 18 2004, 06:24 PM] [quote=Ralphrepo]Mandarin IS the official language of the country. As a matter of fact, mandarin transliterated means "country's language."[.quote]
No, Mandarin has several different names in Chinese depending on where you are from. In mainland China, it's called Putonghua, which means the "common language" or "mutual language". In Taiwan it's called Guoyu, which means the "national language". In Singapore and oversea Chinese community, it's called Huayu, or "Chinese language". There is also another term for Mandarin that is becoming the official name for Mandarin, which is Hanyu, or "language of the Han ethnic", this is more politically correct because Chinese have 56 ethnic minority groups who may not speak Mandarin or any Chinese dialects as their native language.
[quote=Ralphrepo]But it was just a northern Chinese dialect. It was chosen as the national language owing more to the contemporaneous political base at the time rather than any linguistic consideration. [/quote]
Mandarin in its modern form didn't really even exist a couple hundred years ago. Mandarin isn't truly a dialect but partially an "artificial" language. Mandarin IS heavily based on Beijinghua (Beijing dialect) with some modifications. It was chosen as the national language not just for political reasons but also its simplicity and the fact that Beijinghua, or also called Guanhua (dialect of government officials) have been used by the court for hundreds of years.
[quote=Ralphrepo]Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible. [/quote]
You are right on the spot except it's Guangzhou, not "GuangZhao".
[quote=Ralphrepo]After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons.[/quote]
The ROC did NOT "become" the PRC. As a matter of fact, I am in Taoyuan, Taiwan, ROC right now!
[quote=Ralphrepo]Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world. [/quote]
Mandarin has already become the common Chinese language throughout the world. I think it'd be quite difficult to find an university around the world that doesn't teach Mandarin, but another dialect. Also, immigration from PRC isn't and won't be the only reason why Mandarin will be more widespread, it's also because of political and cultural reasons. Also, don't forget that Chinese from Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well.
[quote=Hiroki]I've always thought that Pu-tong-hwa was chosen as the official PRC language by Sun-Yat-Sen b/c of its simplicity and ease of learning for the foreigners? As my mandarin teacher has told me the 4 tones compared to the 9 in Cantonese or whatever in the others.[/quote]
Yes, but there was a vote on this issue. It wasn't decided by Dr. Sun Yat-sen alone. According to some Cantonese-speakers, the vote was a close-call. But I have never heard of it being a "close-call" or anything about it except for the fact Mandarin won the vote. -shurg
[quote=Hiroki]I think Cantonese had more early exposure due to the two territories under foreign rule, HK and Macau are Cantonese speaking. Lack of freedom of movement during the Iron Curtain years of the cold war prevented much Mandarin from being exposed globally whereas HK or Macaunese citizens had the chance to travel and expose the language to the world.[/quote]
As I mentioned earlier, Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well. Immigration FROM Taiwan has decreased over the years due to better situation in Taiwan (heck, I haven't been back in 7 years and it's so much better here I don't even want to go back to the U.S.) However, during the 70's and 80's, Taiwan was still considered a "developing country" but its economy JUST took off. Therefore, people had money and Taiwan wasn't that great yet so they left. [/quote]
too much reading for me man
No, Mandarin has several different names in Chinese depending on where you are from. In mainland China, it's called Putonghua, which means the "common language" or "mutual language". In Taiwan it's called Guoyu, which means the "national language". In Singapore and oversea Chinese community, it's called Huayu, or "Chinese language". There is also another term for Mandarin that is becoming the official name for Mandarin, which is Hanyu, or "language of the Han ethnic", this is more politically correct because Chinese have 56 ethnic minority groups who may not speak Mandarin or any Chinese dialects as their native language.
[quote=Ralphrepo]But it was just a northern Chinese dialect. It was chosen as the national language owing more to the contemporaneous political base at the time rather than any linguistic consideration. [/quote]
Mandarin in its modern form didn't really even exist a couple hundred years ago. Mandarin isn't truly a dialect but partially an "artificial" language. Mandarin IS heavily based on Beijinghua (Beijing dialect) with some modifications. It was chosen as the national language not just for political reasons but also its simplicity and the fact that Beijinghua, or also called Guanhua (dialect of government officials) have been used by the court for hundreds of years.
[quote=Ralphrepo]Historically, "Cantonese," a term in English, was derived by and for westerners to differentiate between the two. This was because the populace around the Canton (GuangZhao) region spoke a language different from those in Peking (Beijing). In essence, they are completely different in terms of mechanical structure, pitch and intonation. In cantonese, the term is "gwong dung wah" which means GuangDong's (province) language.
Why were so many cantonese speakers distributed throughout the world?
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible. [/quote]
You are right on the spot except it's Guangzhou, not "GuangZhao".
[quote=Ralphrepo]After the ROC became the PRC, the flow of migration ceased for politcal reasons.[/quote]
The ROC did NOT "become" the PRC. As a matter of fact, I am in Taoyuan, Taiwan, ROC right now!
[quote=Ralphrepo]Now, as immigration is swelling from the rest of the language ranks of China, Mandarin will become the common Chinese language throughout the rest of the world. [/quote]
Mandarin has already become the common Chinese language throughout the world. I think it'd be quite difficult to find an university around the world that doesn't teach Mandarin, but another dialect. Also, immigration from PRC isn't and won't be the only reason why Mandarin will be more widespread, it's also because of political and cultural reasons. Also, don't forget that Chinese from Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well.
[quote=Hiroki]I've always thought that Pu-tong-hwa was chosen as the official PRC language by Sun-Yat-Sen b/c of its simplicity and ease of learning for the foreigners? As my mandarin teacher has told me the 4 tones compared to the 9 in Cantonese or whatever in the others.[/quote]
Yes, but there was a vote on this issue. It wasn't decided by Dr. Sun Yat-sen alone. According to some Cantonese-speakers, the vote was a close-call. But I have never heard of it being a "close-call" or anything about it except for the fact Mandarin won the vote. -shurg
[quote=Hiroki]I think Cantonese had more early exposure due to the two territories under foreign rule, HK and Macau are Cantonese speaking. Lack of freedom of movement during the Iron Curtain years of the cold war prevented much Mandarin from being exposed globally whereas HK or Macaunese citizens had the chance to travel and expose the language to the world.[/quote]
As I mentioned earlier, Taiwan (ROC) and Singapore speak Mandarin as well. Immigration FROM Taiwan has decreased over the years due to better situation in Taiwan (heck, I haven't been back in 7 years and it's so much better here I don't even want to go back to the U.S.) However, during the 70's and 80's, Taiwan was still considered a "developing country" but its economy JUST took off. Therefore, people had money and Taiwan wasn't that great yet so they left. [/quote]
too much reading for me man
QUOTE (Ralphrepo @ Mar 18 2004, 10:24 AM)
The people of GuangDong province had better access to the tall Yankee Clipper ships that docked at Canton. Such that many cantonese signed on, or were sold into the manual labor pool that left on those ships. Poor villages from the areas just outside Canton, like ToyShan, joined in the migration. That's why there are more people that claim ToyShan heritage outside of China than there is in ToyShan itself. Toyshanese is a subdialect of Cantonese, and for me (a Cantonese speaker since birth), is barely intelligible.
My Chinese Ancestry roots come a long way from Toishan, and I happen to speak Toishanese. I've been tease about it, people who speak Cantonese seemed to think the way Toishanese is spoken is very funny, and stupid. I've heard some boy called it the "Grandma Language" and was laughing his mouth off (I was about to go after him...) I'm hurt by these comments.
I'm proud to show that I can speak it, as well as Cantonese (whom I pick up around Chinatown) and Mandarin (learning to improve it).
So I'm probably the only one who can speak it here...
Thanks Kulong and Hiroki, for the clarifications. Seems that this old fart still has a ways to stink 
In the mid '90s, there was an article in the NYTimes (IIRC) magazine section about ToyShan (Toishan, whatever the accepted spelling nowadays) that noted the population as about 90K, with expats and their heirs claiming about a quarter million in number.
One of which is yours truly.
Ralph
In the mid '90s, there was an article in the NYTimes (IIRC) magazine section about ToyShan (Toishan, whatever the accepted spelling nowadays) that noted the population as about 90K, with expats and their heirs claiming about a quarter million in number.
One of which is yours truly.
Ralph
I don't see why Cantonese-speakers discriminate against Toisan-speakers. To a native-Mandarin-speaker such as myself, I can't really tell the difference. But people will always hate... 
Here is a list of several languages and dialects spoken in China and Taiwan for those who are still interested:
Akha
Amis
Atuence
Bai
Biyo
Buyi
Cao Lan
Dai
Dong
Dongxiang
Gan
Hakka (Kejia)
Hani
Hlai
Hmong
Honi
Iu Mien
Jiarong
Jingpho
Kado
Kazakh
Kirghiz
Li
Lisu
Lue
Han/Mandarin
Mien
Minbei
Minnan
Mongolian
Naxi
Nhang
Nung
Ongbe
Palaung
Parauk
Qiang
Sui
Tai Nüa
Tujia
Tuva
Wu
Xiang
Yi
Yue
Zhuang
Not all of them are of Chinese origin but it's just to give an idea of how many languages exist in China. A lot, neh?
Akha
Amis
Atuence
Bai
Biyo
Buyi
Cao Lan
Dai
Dong
Dongxiang
Gan
Hakka (Kejia)
Hani
Hlai
Hmong
Honi
Iu Mien
Jiarong
Jingpho
Kado
Kazakh
Kirghiz
Li
Lisu
Lue
Han/Mandarin
Mien
Minbei
Minnan
Mongolian
Naxi
Nhang
Nung
Ongbe
Palaung
Parauk
Qiang
Sui
Tai Nüa
Tujia
Tuva
Wu
Xiang
Yi
Yue
Zhuang
Not all of them are of Chinese origin but it's just to give an idea of how many languages exist in China. A lot, neh?
You're missing one, buddy. Si chuan hua. xD I can't speak it anymore, but I can still understand it. Well, unless it's called by another name there..
QUOTE (SiLvErStArDuSt @ Mar 20 2004, 09:40 PM)
You're missing one, buddy. Si chuan hua. xD I can't speak it anymore, but I can still understand it. Well, unless it's called by another name there..
Sichuanhua is a variation of Mandarin. My grandfather, who is from Chengdu can speak Sichuanhua. I can understand most of what he says even though I only speak Mandarin fluently.
Seriously? Oh well.. 
Hey! I'm from ChengDu too!! o.0
Hey! I'm from ChengDu too!! o.0
hey there..
wooo havent been here in a while
newayz according to ranmatatsumaru, im Kejia ^^;;
but im not from taiwan, china or hk.. o___O;;
wow there are wayyy more dialects than I thought..
koool koool ^^
wooo havent been here in a while
newayz according to ranmatatsumaru, im Kejia ^^;;
but im not from taiwan, china or hk.. o___O;;
wow there are wayyy more dialects than I thought..
koool koool ^^
I can't tell how many dialects in china.
But i can make an exmaple.
besides in some cities they have no dialect, but only using Mandarin. Normally, each city has its own dialect. Moreover, the small towns or villages around city also have dialects. I live in the small city in the middle of Zhejiang Province. I can speak my dialects, but if i go to the bigger city which is taking charge my city, i can understand what they talk, buy i can't speak coz they have another dialects which is close ours. when i was in Senior school, some of my classmates come from the same city, but we can't communicate but only can use mandarin coz they live far from the center of downtown, and they use different dialect than us.
Now i'm studying in Ningbo, it's also in Zhejiang province, but i can't understand their dialect, we all use mandarin in the school.
so, in the same city, we have different dialects, u just imagine how many dialects we can have 
But i can make an exmaple.
besides in some cities they have no dialect, but only using Mandarin. Normally, each city has its own dialect. Moreover, the small towns or villages around city also have dialects. I live in the small city in the middle of Zhejiang Province. I can speak my dialects, but if i go to the bigger city which is taking charge my city, i can understand what they talk, buy i can't speak coz they have another dialects which is close ours. when i was in Senior school, some of my classmates come from the same city, but we can't communicate but only can use mandarin coz they live far from the center of downtown, and they use different dialect than us.
Now i'm studying in Ningbo, it's also in Zhejiang province, but i can't understand their dialect, we all use mandarin in the school.
so, in the same city, we have different dialects, u just imagine how many dialects we can have
QUOTE (ranmatatsumaru @ Mar 20 2004, 01:16 PM)
Here is a list of several languages and dialects spoken in China and Taiwan for those who are still interested:
Akha
Amis
Atuence
Bai
Biyo
Buyi
Cao Lan
Dai
Dong
Dongxiang
Gan
Hakka (Kejia)
Hani
Hlai
Hmong
Honi
Iu Mien
Jiarong
Jingpho
Kado
Kazakh
Kirghiz
Li
Lisu
Lue
Han/Mandarin
Mien
Minbei
Minnan
Mongolian
Naxi
Nhang
Nung
Ongbe
Palaung
Parauk
Qiang
Sui
Tai Nüa
Tujia
Tuva
Wu
Xiang
Yi
Yue
Zhuang
Not all of them are of Chinese origin but it's just to give an idea of how many languages exist in China. A lot, neh?
Akha
Amis
Atuence
Bai
Biyo
Buyi
Cao Lan
Dai
Dong
Dongxiang
Gan
Hakka (Kejia)
Hani
Hlai
Hmong
Honi
Iu Mien
Jiarong
Jingpho
Kado
Kazakh
Kirghiz
Li
Lisu
Lue
Han/Mandarin
Mien
Minbei
Minnan
Mongolian
Naxi
Nhang
Nung
Ongbe
Palaung
Parauk
Qiang
Sui
Tai Nüa
Tujia
Tuva
Wu
Xiang
Yi
Yue
Zhuang
Not all of them are of Chinese origin but it's just to give an idea of how many languages exist in China. A lot, neh?
Amis, along with several others are Languages of the Aboriginal Malay of Taiwan and surrounding islands are not "Chinese Origin" They are called Formosan languages and are associated with the Austronesian Language Family and is considered the Originator of the Austronesian language family.
Formosan Languages of Taiwan:
Amis
Atayal
Babuza
Basay Bunun
Hoanya
Kavalan
Kulon
Paiwan
Papora
Pazeh
Puyuma
Qauqaut
Saisiyat
Siraya
Rukai
Taokas
Thao
Tsou
Batanic Languages (related to the languages of Batanes islands, Philippines):
Yami
--
Li, the language spoken in Hainan is also an Austronesian language spoken by the Li tribal minority who are aboriginal to Hainan island.
you forgot uighur and other turkic languages and korean
I think many of you are confused about "Chinese dialects" and "languages of China"
There are only seven Chinese dialect groups, Mandarin, Yue, Wu, Min, Gan, Xiang, and Kejia.
However, there are many other "languages of China" including those spoken by both ethnic minorities in China like Uighur, Tibetan, Mongolian, Miao... etc. and the various dialects of the Gaoshan ethnic in Taiwan.
There are only seven Chinese dialect groups, Mandarin, Yue, Wu, Min, Gan, Xiang, and Kejia.
However, there are many other "languages of China" including those spoken by both ethnic minorities in China like Uighur, Tibetan, Mongolian, Miao... etc. and the various dialects of the Gaoshan ethnic in Taiwan.
QUOTE
(IORI @ Mar 24 2004, 04:32 AM)
you forgot uighur and other turkic languages and korean
you forgot uighur and other turkic languages and korean
Very few people in China speak Korean.
Not very many speak Turkic languages either.
QUOTE
Very few people in China speak Korean.
Not very many speak Turkic languages either.
Not very many speak Turkic languages either.
Actually there are about 300,000 Koreans living in China. I'm sure there would be some Hans speaking Korean along the Yalu River.
Xinjiang has a high number of Turks/Arabs. The language is confined to that area so it may not seem like many people speak it.
There are so many dialects in China, it's scary. There are hundreds of different dialects. Hell there are 7 families of dialects itself. Put it this way, imagine in the U.S. if you were to travel from L.A. to San Diego and then to Phoenix and then to Denver and then to Chicago, all of these cities would have their own languages and they'd be mutually unintelligible with one another. It would be no different than a Spanish speaker trying to communicate with a German speaker.
QUOTE (GuanYu @ Mar 24 2004, 09:07 PM)
There are so many dialects in China, it's scary. There are hundreds of different dialects. Hell there are 7 families of dialects itself. Put it this way, imagine in the U.S. if you were to travel from L.A. to San Diego and then to Phoenix and then to Denver and then to Chicago, all of these cities would have their own languages and they'd be mutually unintelligible with one another. It would be no different than a Spanish speaker trying to communicate with a German speaker.
That may be true in Southern China, where six of the seven dialect families are, but in northern and southewestern China, people generally speak a version of Mandarin.
Also, almost everyone is able to speak Mandarin now, except for the older generation (60+).
You also have to realize that China and the U.S. developed differently. China expanded over the course of 4,000 years. It was back when communication over long distances was quite difficult. U.S. expanded to about the same size as modern day China in a matter of 150 years when communication over long distances became much more convinent thanks to modern technology.
QUOTE (Kulong @ Mar 24 2004, 10:12 PM)
QUOTE (GuanYu @ Mar 24 2004, 09:07 PM)
There are so many dialects in China, it's scary. There are hundreds of different dialects. Hell there are 7 families of dialects itself. Put it this way, imagine in the U.S. if you were to travel from L.A. to San Diego and then to Phoenix and then to Denver and then to Chicago, all of these cities would have their own languages and they'd be mutually unintelligible with one another. It would be no different than a Spanish speaker trying to communicate with a German speaker.
That may be true in Southern China, where six of the seven dialect families are, but in northern and southewestern China, people generally speak a version of Mandarin.
Also, almost everyone is able to speak Mandarin now, except for the older generation (60+).
You also have to realize that China and the U.S. developed differently. China expanded over the course of 4,000 years. It was back when communication over long distances was quite difficult. U.S. expanded to about the same size as modern day China in a matter of 150 years when communication over long distances became much more convinent thanks to modern technology.
There are many different dialects in northern China too.
QUOTE (???? @ Mar 24 2004, 09:26 PM)
There are many different dialects in northern China too.
Nowhere near as numerous and different than southern China though, that's my point.
I have seen the Tibetan writing system and it looks almost nothing like Hànzì.
What is the Tibetan language like? Is it related to a Chinese language?
What is the Tibetan language like? Is it related to a Chinese language?
QUOTE (ranmatatsumaru @ Mar 24 2004, 10:17 PM)
I have seen the Tibetan writing system and it looks almost nothing like Hànzì.
What is the Tibetan language like? Is it related to a Chinese language?
What is the Tibetan language like? Is it related to a Chinese language?
Tibetan, like Mongolian and Manchurian, are not related to Chinese and not counted as Chinese dialects.
However, Tibetan belong to the same language family as Chinese does while Mongolian and Manchurian are in one language family.
QUOTE
Tibetan, like Mongolian and Manchurian, are not related to Chinese and not counted as Chinese dialects.
I consider them dialects
QUOTE
However, Tibetan belong to the same language family as Chinese does while Mongolian and Manchurian are in one language family.
The term Sino-Tibetian is inadequate.
QUOTE (???? @ Mar 24 2004, 10:25 PM)
QUOTE
Tibetan, like Mongolian and Manchurian, are not related to Chinese and not counted as Chinese dialects.
I consider them dialects
I guess in a way, you could argue they are Chinese dialects if by Chinese you mean anyone living in China. But with that logic, the seven Chinese dialect families of Mandarin, Yue, Gan, Xiang, Wu, Min, Kejia, would have to be labelled as Han dialects.
Wasn't Mongolian written with Hànzì at one point in history?
QUOTE (ranmatatsumaru @ Mar 24 2004, 11:30 PM)
Wasn't Mongolian written with Hànzì at one point in history?
Mongols have/had their own alphabets.
^
Isn't the traditional Mongol alphabet the same as the Manchu one?
Isn't the traditional Mongol alphabet the same as the Manchu one?
QUOTE (ranmatatsumaru @ Mar 24 2004, 11:34 PM)
^
Isn't the traditional Mongol alphabet the same as the Manchu one?
Isn't the traditional Mongol alphabet the same as the Manchu one?
In 11th century, the Nujen people ( Manchu) established Jin dynasty in Northern China. They developed their own scripts based on Han characters. However with the fall of Jin dynasty,their script sort of died down. Until 15th century, Aixinjueluo Nurhachi, the leader of Jianzhou Nujen, wanted to recreate a new, unique system. ( before that the Nujens speak Nujen, but write in Mongol). Nurhachi appointed two officials Erdeni and Gegai to the task. They took Mongol alphabets and basically rearrange the order of spelling into the Nujen tongue. So the answer to your question is yes to an extent. Modern Nujen (Manchu) script is basically based on Mongol
I thought it was something like that. Thans for sharing your knowledge!
BTW, who's the woman in the picture? (you don't have to answer if you don't want to)
BTW, who's the woman in the picture? (you don't have to answer if you don't want to)
QUOTE
I thought it was something like that. Thans for sharing your knowledge!
anytime. I've been studying Qing dynasty and Manchu people, so I'd like to share with you.QUOTE
BTW, who's the woman in the picture?
I wish I knew
^
I wish I knew too!
I wish I knew too!
QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Mar 24 2004, 09:13 PM)
QUOTE
Very few people in China speak Korean.
Not very many speak Turkic languages either.
Not very many speak Turkic languages either.
Actually there are about 300,000 Koreans living in China. I'm sure there would be some Hans speaking Korean along the Yalu River.
Xinjiang has a high number of Turks/Arabs. The language is confined to that area so it may not seem like many people speak it.
Um yes they do if you went to my province you would hear it all the time the uighur speak a language similar to turkish so i have no idea what you're talking about.
and it's 1,923,400 koreans 300,000 is the number of illegal N koreans although most natives speak chinese their native language is usually taught. (in fact china's first legal transexual is ethnic korean)
QUOTE (ranmatatsumaru @ Mar 24 2004, 10:30 PM)
Wasn't Mongolian written with Hànzì at one point in history?
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/mongolian.htm
QUOTE
Origin
The Mongolian alphabet was adapted from the Uighur alphabet in the 12th Century. The Uighur alphabet was a derivative of the Sogdian alphabet, which ultimately came from Aramaic.
Between the 13th and 15th Centuries, Mongolian was also written with Chinese characters, the Arabic alphabet and a script derived from Tibetan called Phags-pa.
The Mongolian alphabet was adapted from the Uighur alphabet in the 12th Century. The Uighur alphabet was a derivative of the Sogdian alphabet, which ultimately came from Aramaic.
Between the 13th and 15th Centuries, Mongolian was also written with Chinese characters, the Arabic alphabet and a script derived from Tibetan called Phags-pa.
^
Yeah I thought so.
Yeah I thought so.
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