Reading the paper today and I saw some interesting statistics in USA Today.

Friday, 3/19/03
Taiwan by the Numbers:

Percentages of Taiwanese who defined themselves as Chinese in Sept. 1992: 44%
Percentage of Taiwanese who defined themselves as Chinese in Nov. 2003: 9%
Numbers of missiles China has pointed at Taiwan: 496
Turnout in last Taiwanese Presidential election: 82.7 %
Turnout in last US presidential election: 67.4%
Number of seat held by Pro-Unification New Party in Parliament 1995: 21
Number of seat held by Pro-Unification Party in 2004: 1
Annual per capita gros domestic product in Taiwan, 2001: $12,941
Annual per capita gross domestic product in China, 2001: $840

source: USA Today Research, Taiwan Government Information Office; Taipei Time

The up coming presidential election between the Shui-bian and Lien are neck to neck.

USA today Quote:

"If Chen and his pro-independence Democratic Progressive Party win, China will have to decide whether to intervene, perhaps militarily, or take a chance it will lose control of the island it considers a renegade province. . . Even so, Taiwanese are in no hurry to declare independence and provoke China. A majority wants the status quo: real but undeclared independence."

I don't think we can trust these statistics as credible evidence because they are clearly pro-Taiwan independence and anti-China. I'm not sure where or how USA Today got those statistics but the 'Percentage of Taiwanese that consider themselves Chinese' is a weak point. If I move to India and consider myself Indian that could be true in a sense but either way, I am still Chinese.

The Pro-Unification Party is also a very small party with 15% support. However this poll gives a false impression that because this party holds very few seats, all the other seats MUST be going to the DPP pro independence. It fails to mention the KMT (who support the One China Policy). Also most Taiwanese DO NOT want independence but rather to keep that status quo or until China has changed for the better so that reunification could be democratically possible.

I have been in Taiwan for over a week now and I can tell you those statistics like Vince has said, are clearly pro-DPP and anti-KMT.

Judging by the number of votes alone, which were extremely close (6.47 million vs. 6.45 million) we can safely say that KMT and DPP have about 50/50 support, not exactly the gloomy picture your statistic has painted.

Well, election results being in, Chen Shui Bian won by 20000 or something votes, but apparently many of them were invalid votes that were cast, so there's going to be a recount. Hope for KMT is still alive!

Does this scenario remind you of anything that may have happened in the US about 4 years ago?

They are preparing for a recount at this moment. I believe DPP did something to the ballots because it does not take over 8 hours to seal it and prepare. Of course you also see the KMT supporters outside all the big election commission buildings but its just very doubtful. I watch the election throughout the whole night and Lien Chan/James Soong had always been leading and at some point over 300,000 ahead. However, the gaps closes in the end they have ups and down and eventually looses by 29,518 (6,471,970,6,471,970).

Some weird events that happened:
-Over 330,000 invalidate votes were counted. (Has never happened in Taiwan history)
-Both president and vice president (DPP) shot right before the election day? If you get the chance just look at the amount of security that was around him. Also, the place is crowded and he gets shot but the assassin is not caught?
-Little kids casting votes and caught on video tape. This tape was revealed by the Lien Chan/James Soong partnership (KMT)
-When people are trying to vote the ballots ran out and they cannot vote. Hahaha that's just too funny there is a total amount of 16 million eligible for voting. They must have printed at least 16 million ballots because the percentage turnout is unpredictable and ok so around 14 million voted. Then how can someone be deprived of his voting right because of lack of ballots when there should be at least 2 million left.

I don't know this is too weird. One thing that is proposed is perhaps that many, many KMT votes where accounted as invalid. Afterall, DPP is the party in power and they can do alot of weirdo stuff

duz ne1 know wat happend to dat controversial referendum 'bout chinese missiles?

never mind. just heard dat it failed:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/03/2...eferendum.reut/

U.S. is known for its support for Chen Shuibian, DPP, and although not publically, Taiwanese Independence.

The Taiwanese (R.O.C.) government is currently ruled by DPP.

Taipei Times is notorious for its pan-green attitude. For those of you who aren't fluent in Taiwanese politics, green = DPP, blue = KMT.

Taiwan's future is in the hands of a madman.

:genius: totaly agree with ya there

All the way with Chen Shui Bian.

Why take Communism when you have Democracy?

China should learn from Taiwan and her political/economic model instead of co-ercing her into accepting reunification.

Most Taiwanese consider themselves Taiwanese and not Chinese. Also, most Taiwanese wants independence. China has not ruled Taiwan since 1895.

ah, why risk it then? if china hasn't ruled taiwan since 1895?? if chen shui bian just leave it, taiwan would still be independent in allbut name??
why risk having china invade and creating a military dictatorship?

I'd prefer the status quo as well. However, what China is doing is unacceptable. It is co-ercing the Taiwanese people into returning to the Chinese fold against their will. Also, there's 450+ ballistic missiles aiming at Taiwan. Do you think that will make Taiwanese like Mainland China and the CCP? In addition, China is isolating Taiwan from the international stage. If you're a Taiwanese, how would you feel?

haha! for your info, i am taiwanese..
and have u considered the fact of..why is mainland actually aiming missiles at taiwan? they are putting down a rebellion..and why do they think we are rebelling? cuz chen shui bian is declaring an independance we basically had...before he came to become president..??!
and why should chinese be split anyway? wouldn't working together be better? "united we stand, divided we fall"...

How will China and Taiwan fall if they're divided?

Taiwan is rightfully ours, so why would we give them independence?
Before you know inner mongolia and Tibet want to separate too.

Hmm, what do you think will China do if they do gain or declare independence?

-Norm

No such thing as "rightfully" when you're talking geopolitics. Tibet is ruled with an occupation force. A country hobbled together by force into a union is not a country, but a collective of colonies. History is replete with examples of the final outcome of such colonialism. The biggest and most recent example is the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Even such small territories like the Spratly Islands (closest to the western coast of the PI) that are contested by the regional entities are subject to arguments of who "rightfully" owns them. After the US pulled out of the PI, the PRC immediately sent a military unit to occupy those islands. Contested territory occupied by military force. Hmmm.... rightful indeed.

Speaking of power projection from another thread, it's interesting to note that the PRC didn't take action for over 15 years, until the US pulled out. Then in short order, sent troops. That's why many filipinos are lamenting that maybe it was a mistake to send the US bases home.

Ralph

A Bian is unacceptable and Taiwanese Independence is unacceptable because Taiwanese are Chinese just for your information. So, I'm Chinese and living in the United States does that mean I am American now and just forget about my Chinese background? No, I'm still Chinese but with an American citizenship. That whole idea of Taiwanese and not Chinese is simply retarded racial background does not diminish or erase due to geographical differences.

Who's taking communism? You mean if Lien/James Partnership gets elected Taiwan becomes a communist country? Please, I don't see Hong Kong becoming communist and China is even more relaxed with its policy under one nation two system rule. They get to keep current military, most status quo and even a president other than the fact now Taiwan is now part of China. Now which metally retarded people can't see the advantage of this? Obviously half of the population.

I personally have lived in Taiwan and it is so obvious the DPP supporters are very violent against the KMT supporter. My dad has gotten into a fight with 3 people carrying samurai swords because he had a KMT supporting conversation with his
friend while eating.

I have been to sports standium during the Taipei governor election and the DPP winner during that same night throws firecracker and led a series of violent attacks outside of the standium while more than 400,000 people are trying to leave.

The wife of A Bian receives illegal money from others while the people in Taiwan are dying every week due to lack of job. This is the example that the current lame duck president sets and your talking about a her economic model? It's so great people hang themselves every week and sometimes the whole family dies together because they run to a dead end. No job, no money, can't pay rent, underground money-lenders pushing. Right. Someone hang himself because KMT wasn't elected because he has lost his job and when he heard the news he say he can't wait for another four years and dies. This proves how effective a bian's economic plan is.

KMT will show them this time not only DPP can take the agressive stand. We have been pushed around too much from the 12 years rule of the traitor Lee to A bian and his possible reelection. The KMT will is strong people have been in front of the Taipei capital since friday night and they are still there.

Another point, of course Americans want Taiwanese Independence because they hate to see the Chinese getting stronger and stronger. This is in fact what they do the best, interfere with other countries' politics and get them Independence. Cuba from Spain, Panama from Colombia you name it.

I don't believe you are completely informed about the historical and social connections between Taiwan and China.

If I move to Vietnam tomorrow, am I Vietnamese?

And immigration liberals continue to wonder why the US is falling apart.

No, I'm sorry I must restate. Since I have an American citizenship I am now American and must denounce my Chinese heritage.

The immigrant liberals no longer needs to worry about why US is falling part because everyone will be like me.

Taiwan is definitely messed up as of now.

Please provide the evidence that most Taiwanese want independence. How do you define Taiwanese anyways? The citizens that live in Taiwan, or those that want independence?

It is very possible that Taiwan and China could fall if they were strongly divided from each other. Right now, they both depend on one another for trade and such, and China is Taiwans' greatest trading partner. If Taiwan were to become completely independent, their economy would be very greatly hurt. The politicians have to keep in mind future consequences of their actions and thoughts before they publicize them.

There is no single evidence that provide most of the Taiwanese wanting independence. However, it is clearly around 45-50% of the population in Taiwan wants independence from two facts.

People who voted for A-Bian most likely wants independence and he won about 50% of the vote.

People who voted YES on the National Refrendum which pissed China off wants independence for sure but the Refrendum was rejected. Only 45% voted YES on it.

For those of you who believe KMT = CCP and that only voting for DPP would allow Taiwan to stay in the status quo is more ignorant than I expected.

And if you also think that Taiwan hasn't been part of China since 1895, you just simply lack knowledge on history.

You mainland Chinese sures know how to twist and bend history to suit your own purposes. For your information China is not the rightful owner of Tibet. You communists sent your army into Tibet, massacred the monks and people and occupied it for over 50 years. From what do you base your claim on Tibet? Mongolia also applies.

China lost control of Taiwan to Japan in 1895 and th Japanese occupied it until 1945. Since then Taiwan has never been controlled by the mainland government.

You Chinese seems to think that everything belongs to you because you've once ruled over it through force or once occupied it. Thats not the logic there. We can just say that the Mongolians should rule you Chinese because they once took over your country and held it for nearly 100 years.

Hahaha... you automatically assume someone who isn't anti-China like you must be a mainland Chinese? baichi...

Check my IP, and you'll find out that I am currently in Taoyuan, Taiwan, R.O.C. I came back to Taiwan to vote because I have dual-citizenship.

Where did you get your information from anyway? Hollywood movies? Hahaha...

When Japanese left Taiwan after WW2, it was returned to the government of the Republic of China with its capital in Nanjing. Then in 1949, after the Chinese civil war ended, the Republic of China government retreated to Taiwan.

You Vietnamese think the same, heck, everyone in the world think the same. Southern Vietnam didn't used to belong to you, you took it anyway. But of course, I don't think there's anything wrong because in reality, strong survives. Name one great nation that has not ever taken over another people's land?

Mongolians can TRY to claim they should rule China. The keyword is TRY.

What you are saying reasserts my belief that Chinese occupation of Tibet is totally illegal. Am I right? So this world is not ruled by logic but by strenght, the strong survives and can bully any country it wishes. Hail The Great China.

Of course the world is ruled by strength, not logic. Look at the U.S.

Welcome to the real world... haha

I'm a realist, it's just that the Chinese are not. They do not accept the fact that Taiwan is an independent country in all but name. They also do not accept the fact that Taiwanese wants independence.

Also, being a realist, I say that the Chinese are not accepting the fact that the world is ruled by strenght, and that America supplies Taiwan with weapons and support its independence covertly.

Oh wells Chinese are not realists.

Taiwan isn't an independent nation, Republic of China is. There is no nation in the world called "Taiwan". Taiwan is the name of the main island which the Republic of China is resided on. Republic of China also includes the islands of Jinmen, Mazu, Penghu, Ludao... etc.

There are two Chinas in reality, Republic of China and People's Republic of China.

U.S. sells weapons to the R.O.C. not out of good will but to make money. U.S. only sells older, used weapons to the R.O.C. To many Chinese, whether they are from the mainland or Taiwan, such an act is like two brothers fighting and a third person comes along and sells weapons to one of them so they would beat each other to death and in the end, the third person wins.



I find that offensive. You just labelled 1.2 billion Chinese in PRC, 20 million Chinese in Taiwan, and millions of oversea Chinese as not being realists.

Tibet has been part of China longer than Southern Vietnam has been part of Vietnam. How about Vietnam gives back Khmer Krom and Chian gives back Tibet?


Also you have jsut contradicted yourself here after you said the world is not ruled by logic but by strength (namely your point saying China rules Tibet by strength). And then you say the Chinese are not realists because they do not accept the world is ruled by strength?

Kulong is from Taiwan. Are you telling me you know what he is thinking, what all the people on Taiwan want? Also it seems like you are praising the US support for acts that breah the UN Charter of interfering with a country's internal affairs. It is funny how you claim China is evil and rules by strength and aggression but you hug the USA and believe they do not do the same thing.

What you've just said proves that Chinese are not realists. If Taiwan is not a country then what is it?

Taiwan is not politically or militarily controlled by China. Taiwan has its own president, government and an independent political/economic system. If it's not an independent national in all but name then what is it. The ROC passport even says "Taiwan" instead of "Republic of China".

I must agree with you that the Americans had other motives besides helping Taiwan gaining independence. Being an American foreign policy observer myself, I'm very cynical of the US's intention. I also agree with you that it was partly to sell weapons and weaken the Chinese people as a whole. But there's also a reality that most Americans and the American government favours Taiwan being democratic and Independent. As you're a Taiwanese living in America, you should know that better than me.

I'm very sorry for the comment about all the Chinese people as not being realists, I was generalising there and emotions got over me.

Since when did I hug the USA? I hate it for what it did in Vietnam, Cuba, Somalia and so many other places. It bombed the crap out of over dozen countries and overthrown a dozen more governments without ever apologizing. The American policy has always been propelled by self interest and the attempt to weaken others to make it global position more dominant. It is also one of the most hypocritical country in the world.

Taiwan is an island, Republic of China is a country.

You are right, Taiwan is not politically or militarily controlled by the PRC, it is by the ROC.

The ROC passport does not say Taiwan instead of ROC. I have a ROC passport sitting right next to me. There was a controversial policy that adds "Taiwan" along side of ROC on the passport, but I have yet to see this "new" passport yet. But I can assure you, ROC will not be changing its name or flag anytime soon.



Yes U.S. favors ROC being democratic and so do the whole population in the ROC. That was never in question. The reason why even KMT supporters (50% of the population) don't want immediate reunification is because they fear they will lose their democracy. Which is why KMT supports a long-term reunification, meaning waiting for PRC to "catch up" to ROC in terms of democracy.



Apology accepted.

a picture is worth a thousand words

LOL ok I'm wrong about the passport part. Thought they've changed it.

That's an extremely limited and narrow view of the world and is short on understanding world events. In terms of having to apologize for anything, the US does not have to apologize for French Indochina, nor the "sun never setting" on the British Empire, not to mention German or Dutch Africa, or the Spanish commonwealth that is South America. What I'm trying to say is, that the US is probably not near the top of the list when it comes to aggressive military and social dominance in world events throughout history. And your point of the US being self serving is dead on. However, you forget to mention that every other nation is doing exactly the same thing. Remember that Mao's son died fighting in North Korea. What were Chinese troops doing there, engaging in international friendship? And of course, the whole non-US influenced world uses the fabled AK47, which was a Soviet designed international trade item. Oh, and the latest US imperialism event we can thank the Brits for partitioning Iraq into such a nice square box without regard to the people and ethnic influences there historically. But I guess it's their habit since they did the same in Palestine and the subcontinent too. And I'm sure the French resort of Algeria would point the finger at the US since everyone else is doing it. And of course the Russians only have peace on their mind supplying the PRC with Flankers, Migs, and the odd Sovremeny class missile destroyer or two.

The point is, everyone is playing this game for themselves. Everyone that hates the US for such jockeying of position would do well to ask themselves that if another world player had the might and resources of the US, would the world be better off or worse. The realization may surprise you.

Ralph

Except that others don't claim themselves to be "good guys".

When others do something bad, it looks bad on them and that's ok. When we do something bad, it looks bad on us and that's not ok.

And the Americans still think that they're the good guys. So sad for those brainwashed by the Jewish dominated media.

We do have the option of getting rid of our government every four years if we don't like its policies.

I can't say it's the same for other countries.

Do you have hard facts about Jewish-dominated media or is that just a personal opinion?

Doesn't every country????

You live in America, I live in Australia. If you don't know much about your country compares to me then you're very ignorant. Just think of the media moguls like Bloomberg, the vast number of journalists and the American political system itself dominated by Jewish congressman/lower house members as well as the Jewish lobby. But this is an unrelated story.

America is highly protestant in the political area... even in the lower areas.

Well what's the use in sitting down static and complaining but not doing anything....??

Am I?

It's true that the Jewish lobby is influential but what you just gave me is no proof that the American media is being manipulated by anyone.

Sorry but I don't prescribe to conspiracy theory and listen to those bs. Those who told them are complicit liars.

Exactly.

hehe, strayed a bit from topic? :genius:

Ha, it's still the same government, just different people.

Republicans and Democrats have the same ideology. Their only difference is economical, not really political.

Nope. The system remains the same but the people running it are changed.

It's powerful when everyone can say to their leader "you are fired". Try doing that in China and see who gets fired on.