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malaccan
Melaka is to Malaysia what Majapahit is to Indonesia and Ayutthaya is to Thailand. But going even beyond that, Malacca is just the continuation of an even older empire, that of Srivijaya.
Srivjaya: Wikipedia
All Malaysians know about how the last Srivijayan prince, Parameswara, escaped from Palembang via Temasek to the Malay Peninsula where he founded the kingdom of Malacca. Under threat from both Majapahit which was already on the decline, and Ayutthaya which was on the rise, Malacca received protection from the Ming Dynasty China through the celebrated Muslim eunuch emissary, Cheng Ho.

I think many things can be discussed from this starting point, so please feel free to do so. No flames please.

I'll start by saying that I've always had a fascination with the links between Sailendra and Srivijaya. Sailendra was the builder of Borobodur, and intermarried with the Sriivijayans. In fact, when rulership of Buddhist Sailendra was usurped by Patapan from the Hindu Kingdom of Sanjaya (the builders of Prambanan in answer to Borobodur), the Sailendran prince Balaputra escaped to Srivijaya which also practised Buddhism, where he ascended the throne almost unchallenged.

AEROFORCE1
QUOTE(malaccan @ Dec 30 2005, 07:37 PM)
Malacca received protection from the Ming Dynasty China through the celebrated Muslim eunuch emissary, Cheng Ho.


*


Do u mean this man Zheng He he is the chinese Admiral who travel over SEA India and Africa. And he solve the conflict between Siam and Malaka

http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/journey2001/ He even the god of the boatman in Thai
TonyL
QUOTE
"Srivijaya is  remembered today not for its temples or even its own literary records  but in the literature of foreign countries, whose merchants enjoyed the facilities of the Malay seafarers " ( O. Wolters )

Transition to new religion probably make them break with the old past and old manuscripts etc were not copied anymore etc but its alive in other records , therefore xtra interesting to reconstruct.

Many people have not read the professional studies of experts and only know internet info. Sometimes usefull though but I warn people on this, they should be taken with some salt here and there, especially when the original works of the experts and the ancient records tell a different story.Haha, hear me now . Like I m on an academic history forum gna. embarassedlaugh.gif
I 'll get back later.
TonyL
Ok. The great maritime empire of Srivijaya, Sumatra(Indonesia) based kingdom but also with important bases on Malay peninsula( and far beyond) that played important role at several times.

QUOTE
"In the sea of Champa ( South China Sea) is the empire of Maharaja, the king of the islands, who rules over an empire without limit and has innumerable troops. Even the most rapid vessels could not complete in two years a tour round the isles which are under his possesssion. The territories of this king produce all sorts of spices and aromatics, and no other sovereign of the world gets as much wealth from the soil."

The famous Arab Al Ma'sudi 943 AD on Srivijaya/Zabag/ Sribuza.


QUOTE
Malaccan : ll start by saying that I've always had a fascination with the links between Sailendra and Srivijaya. Sailendra was the builder of Borobodur, and intermarried with the Sriivijayans. In fact, when rulership of Buddhist Sailendra was usurped by Patapan from the Hindu Kingdom of Sanjaya (the builders of Prambanan in answer to Borobodur), the Sailendran prince Balaputra escaped to Srivijaya which also practised Buddhism, where he ascended the throne almost unchallenged.


Well at that time they were already family for sure!
Historians agree Srivijayans and Sailendras are related by intermarriage but there is still much to puzzle and views are sometimes changing. It s agreed that Balaputra was the one that emerged with Srivijaya ( he had Sailendra and Srivijayan blood ). Interesting is that the Sojomerto inscription on Java ( Kedu plain ) was in Old Malay( just as Srivijaya used ). Indonesian Boechari considers this as earliest Sailendra inscription ( 650-700 Ad ) . In that case.. it can mean several things though but it looks like some friendship/relation was already there.

malaccan
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Dec 30 2005, 09:39 AM)
QUOTE(malaccan @ Dec 30 2005, 07:37 PM)
Malacca received protection from the Ming Dynasty China through the celebrated Muslim eunuch emissary, Cheng Ho.


*


Do u mean this man Zheng He he is the chinese Admiral who travel over SEA India and Africa. And he solve the conflict between Siam and Malaka

http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/journey2001/ He even the god of the boatman in Thai
*

The very same man icon_smile.gif


QUOTE(TonyL @ Dec 30 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
"Srivijaya is  remembered today not for its temples or even its own literary records  but in the literature of foreign countries, whose merchants enjoyed the facilities of the Malay seafarers " ( O. Wolters )

Transition to new religion probably make them break with the old past and old manuscripts etc were not copied anymore etc but its alive in other records , therefore xtra interesting to reconstruct.

Many people have not read the professional studies of experts and only know internet info. Sometimes usefull though but I warn people on this, they should be taken with some salt here and there, especially when the original works of the experts and the ancient records tell a different story.Haha, hear me now . Like I m on an academic history forum gna. embarassedlaugh.gif
I 'll get back later.
*

Compared to the other kingdoms of its time, there really is surprising little by way of published materials on Srivijaya. I'd attended a talk on where different speakers on southeast Asian history gave some updates on classical SEA history at SOAS Uni of London, and one of them said that "Srivijaya is a black hole, we know very little about it compared to the other Indianised states of southeast Asia."

I only thought of introducing this thread when a new member from the Thai chat put down that he came from Srivijaya icon_wink.gif . He's active in the Religion section, talking about Buddhism. Srivijaya was indeed a centre of Mahayana Buddhism and scholars from China studied there for a period of time before progressing to India. Remember our previous misunderstanding Tony? biggrin.gif

It would've great if Srivijaya built great monuments like its sister state the Sailendra, but it didn't. Some theories put it down that only agrarian-based cultures like the Sailendra and Angkor do that, while Srivijaya's lifeline was trade, as was its subsequent successors in the straits, Malacca and eventually, Singapore.
malaccan
Didn't realise you were posting at the same time!

QUOTE
Ok. The great maritime empire of Srivijaya, Sumatra(Indonesia) based kingdom but also with important bases on Malay peninsula( and far beyond) that played important role at several times.

Yeah, Chaiya in southern Thailand today keeps popping up time and time again as an important outpost of Srivijaya.

QUOTE
Well at that time they were already family for sure!
Historians  agree Srivijayans and Sailendras are related by intermarriage but there is still much to puzzle and views are sometimes changing. It s agreed that  Balaputra  was the one that emerged with Srivijaya ( he had Sailendra and Srivijayan blood ). Interesting is that the Sojomerto inscription on Java ( Kedu plain ) was in Old Malay( just as Srivijaya used ). Indonesian Boechari considers this as earliest Sailendra inscription ( 650-700 Ad ) . In that case.. it can mean several things though but it looks like some friendship/relation was already there.

So really, Parameswara was ultimately the descendant of both Srivijaya and Sailendra lines then yeah? When the last sultan of Malacca escaped to Johor when the city was attacked by the Portuguese, he sent one of his sons to be the sultan of Perak, whose direct descendant is still ruler there. Sultan Azlan Shah is one of the most revered sultans in Malaysia today.

Srivijayan descendant
user posted image
Daulat Tuanku!
Semoga Allah melanjutkan usia baginda Sultan!
AnAttA
I was near tears when I saw this thread. neartears.gif
It was like a phone call from long lost family member.

QUOTE(AnAttA @ Dec 17 2005, 09:45 PM)
I'm from Srivijaya.
user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image
*

malaccan
^Hello AnAtta. Feel free to chip in. Like I told you before, I was pleasantly surprised to see that you associate yourself with Srivijaya still. Your posts about Buddhism are thought-provoking, I enjoy reading them.
This thread is for us to learn from each other, so if there's anything you want to say about the teachings of Buddhism at the time as far as you know for example, please feel free to do so. We're all friends here.
Here's one more photo I found on Srivijayan dance.
user posted image
From a Thai website: Rabam Sriwichai ( Srivichai folk dance) is invented from the Sriwichai carved picture and the cement mould mixing with Jawa and Bali folk dance model inserting the classical dancing model. Some of the movement model look like Java and Bali dancing model such as setting up the circle in elbow protection, out to be the curve circle, hands actions. using yakgo ( moving the neck up and down) like Java and Bali classical dancing, stand still model, hip twisting likes Bali dancing model.
AnAttA
icon_smile.gif
malaccan
^You could do better than just a smiley, you know! embarassedlaugh.gif
I first stumbled onto AF when surfing the net on the old Malay kingdom of Champa. I was delighted when I found there were other people was keen on the subject just like I was.

Some key Srivijayan-Sailendran dates (source Sar Desai's Southeast Asia Past and Present 5th edition)
7th century: Srivijaya founded
671: I-Ching's visit
8th century: Sailendra founded
778-824: Borobodur built
790: Sailendra invades Chenla
850:Sailendra Balaputra flees to Srivijaya
929-48: Sindok founds Mataram
1006: Srivijaya defeats Mataram
1026-45: Cholas occupy Srivijaya
1042: Airlangga divides Mataram into Janggala and Kediri
1222: Ken Angrok defeats Kediri
1290: Kertanegara defeats Srivijaya
1292: Monggols attack Singhasari, Kertanegara killed, Majapahit founded
1331-64: Gajah Mada Majapahit Prime Minister
1402: Malacca founded icon_smile.gif

If you put alongside this timeline the happenings in the mainland with the Khmers, Thais, Burmese etc, you'll see what a great shared and inter-related classical history we have in this region before the coming of outsiders.

AnAttA
QUOTE
Kingdom centered on Sumatra, recorded from the late 7th century into the 12th century. The state is believed to have been established in the third century, and to have succeeded FUNAN as controller of the Malacca Straits in the 7th century. The capital was PALEMBANG. At its height, its rule extended over Sumatra, Java, western Borneo, the Malay peninsula including the isthm of Kra. Visiting Chinese Buddhist monk I Ching observed numerous Buddhist monks at Srivijaya's capital; he recommended it as a place to learn Sanskrit. Inscriptions from the 680es report of Srivijayan conquests - Jambi, Bangka, of a planned expedition against western Java. Srivijaya was thalassocratic; it is assumed, that she controlled long coastlines and river banks, but that her influence did not extend much into the interior. Unlike the states on Java, Srivijaya did not produce major architectural sites which survived into our time.
The structure or the Srivjayan Empire seems to have been a large number of city-kingdoms based on maritime trade, which recognized the sovereignty of Srivijaya. A number of inscriptions recording military campaigns, within the sphere of power of Srivijaya, lead to the assumption that many of them were punitive expditions to force renegade rulers back into the fold rather than attempts to expand the Empire.
Srivijayan traders sailed to southern Arabia, Africa's east coast, southern China. Srivijaya long controlled the maritime trade between India and China. Srivijayan trade may have profitted from the fact, that due to the wars and raids of the Huns (7th century), the silk road had become unsafe.
Buddhism, both Hinayana and Mahayana, spread, and records describe the Srivijayan capital Palembang as a center of Buddhist learning. Buddhist and Hinduist artefacts and architecture are found on Sumatra and Java, showing a distinct style usually referred to as Javanese.
In 1025, Srivijaya was raided by the Indian Cholas. Worse, it lost control over the maritime trade connecting China with India; Srivijaya declined. Vassal princes, such as Kertanagara of Singhasari, broke off and expanded at the expense of Srivijaya. From 1088 Melayu (Jambi), a former dependance, now made (a much reduced) Srivijaya a dependance of hers; Melayu's supremacy lasted 2 centuries.
Unfortunately, south east Asian history is poorly documented. Main sources consist of reports by foreign visitors, of inscriptions, of archeological findings, of sculptures and other pieces of art and of legends.


Source

I had no idea that Srivijaya related to Malaccan before you pointed it out. I was too stupid.

Srivijaya and Nakorn Sri Thamaraj are two religion places that my family members have to pay a visit .


My mom wants me to get ordained there or at least visit there when I become a monk.


AnAttA
QUOTE(malaccan @ Dec 31 2005, 03:54 AM)
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Dec 30 2005, 09:39 AM)
QUOTE(malaccan @ Dec 30 2005, 07:37 PM)
Malacca received protection from the Ming Dynasty China through the celebrated Muslim eunuch emissary, Cheng Ho.


*


Do u mean this man Zheng He he is the chinese Admiral who travel over SEA India and Africa. And he solve the conflict between Siam and Malaka

http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/journey2001/ He even the god of the boatman in Thai
*

The very same man icon_smile.gif


QUOTE(TonyL @ Dec 30 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
"Srivijaya is  remembered today not for its temples or even its own literary records  but in the literature of foreign countries, whose merchants enjoyed the facilities of the Malay seafarers " ( O. Wolters )

Transition to new religion probably make them break with the old past and old manuscripts etc were not copied anymore etc but its alive in other records , therefore xtra interesting to reconstruct.

Many people have not read the professional studies of experts and only know internet info. Sometimes usefull though but I warn people on this, they should be taken with some salt here and there, especially when the original works of the experts and the ancient records tell a different story.Haha, hear me now . Like I m on an academic history forum gna. embarassedlaugh.gif
I 'll get back later.
*

Compared to the other kingdoms of its time, there really is surprising little by way of published materials on Srivijaya. I'd attended a talk on where different speakers on southeast Asian history gave some updates on classical SEA history at SOAS Uni of London, and one of them said that "Srivijaya is a black hole, we know very little about it compared to the other Indianised states of southeast Asia."

I only thought of introducing this thread when a new member from the Thai chat put down that he came from Srivijaya icon_wink.gif . He's active in the Religion section, talking about Buddhism. Srivijaya was indeed a centre of Mahayana Buddhism and scholars from China studied there for a period of time before progressing to India. Remember our previous misunderstanding Tony? biggrin.gif

It would've great if Srivijaya built great monuments like its sister state the Sailendra, but it didn't. Some theories put it down that only agrarian-based cultures like the Sailendra and Angkor do that, while Srivijaya's lifeline was trade, as was its subsequent successors in the straits, Malacca and eventually, Singapore.
*




Nakorn Sri Thammarat, the second largest province of the South and the land of predominant Buddhism during the Srivijaya Period.

Wat Phra Mahathat This was originally an old monastery of Nakorn Sri Thammarat. Situated in the heart of the city, it is believed to have been constructed during the Srivijaya Period in compliance with the idea of the Mahayana Buddhism School. An extensive complex is centered on the 77-metre pagoda which houses Buddha relics brought from Sri Lanka some 1,700 years ago. The templeâ??s museum exhibits art objects found in the region.



rasibiduk
user posted image

Muara Takus temple complex, one of the few remnants from the Srivijaya era in Palembang.

(from http://home.wanadoo.nl/zoontjes/en/gallery...lery_muara.htm)
malaccan
Thanks rasibiduk, AnAtta.

Increasingly more archaelogical sites are being found concerning Srivijaya at Sumatra, but what I meant was none of them are to the extent of say Borobodur are they? While there are minor sites excavated, even these aren't as celebrated as the ones found at say My Son, which belonged to the Malay Hindu kingdom of Champa.

Most of the texts and scholars say that when the Sailendra line was extinguished in Java but continued in Srivijaya, they adopted the latter's policy of giving primary attention to trade and commerce to the neglect of traditional Sailendran devotion to building Buddhist monuments.

Srivijaya's history belongs to Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Srivijaya shows that the ties of southern Thailand to the Malay peninsula predates the coming of the Tais from the north (disclaimer: this is NOT an endorsement for any separatist cause etc icon_rolleyes.gif) Srivijaya's heartland is geographically in modern-day Indonesia and it's ties to Sailendra and rivalry with Mataram/Singhasari/Majapahit further cements that. But it affects Malaysia most as it was the immediate Malay (as opposed to Javanese) political entity that gave rise to Malacca, the turning point event of modern-day Malaysia icon_neutral.gif
AnAttA
QUOTE(malaccan @ Dec 31 2005, 04:46 PM)
Thanks rasibiduk, AnAtta.

Increasingly more archaelogical sites are being found concerning Srivijaya at Sumatra, but what I meant was none of them are to the extent of say Borobodur are they? While there are minor sites excavated, even these aren't as celebrated as the ones found at say My Son, which belonged to the Malay Hindu kingdom of Champa.

Most of the texts and scholars say that  when the Sailendra line was extinguished in Java but continued in Srivijaya, they adopted the latter's policy of giving primary attention to trade and commerce to the neglect of traditional Sailendran devotion to building Buddhist monuments. 

Srivijaya's history belongs to Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Srivijaya shows that the ties of southern Thailand to the Malay peninsula predates the coming of the Tais from the north (disclaimer: this is NOT an endorsement for any separatist cause etc icon_rolleyes.gif) Srivijaya's heartland is geographically in modern-day Indonesia and it's ties to Sailendra and rivalry with Mataram/Singhasari/Majapahit further cements that. But it affects Malaysia most as it was the immediate Malay (as opposed to Javanese) political entity that gave rise to Malacca, the turning point event of modern-day Malaysia  icon_neutral.gif
*



The largest province of the South located 685 kilometers from Bangkok is Surat Thani the province with a name that literally means "City of the Good People. A former capital of the Srivijaya Empire, the province covers an area of approximately 12,891 square kilometers. Surat Thani Province borders the Gulf of Thailand to the north and east, Chumphon Province to the north, Nakhon Si Thammarat and Krabi Provinces to the south, Phang-Nga and Ranong Provinces to the west and Nakhon Si Thammarat Province to the east.
source
TonyL
The Srivijaya kingdom was the Sumatran based kingdom centred around Palembang
This was the capital, the political centre of the great maritime empire.

All other citystates on the Malay peninsula were PART of the empire.

Let there be NO MISUNDERSTANDING here.
purnomor
QUOTE(AnAttA @ Dec 31 2005, 05:50 AM)
The largest province of the South located 685 kilometers from Bangkok is Surat Thani the province with a name that literally means "City of the Good People. A former capital of the Srivijaya Empire, the province covers an area of approximately 12,891 square kilometers. Surat Thani Province borders the Gulf of Thailand to the north and east, Chumphon Province to the north, Nakhon Si Thammarat and Krabi Provinces to the south, Phang-Nga and Ranong Provinces to the west and Nakhon Si Thammarat Province to the east.
source
*



This information is completely wrong, Srivijaya is an Indonesian-based kingdom. Its capital was in Palembang, my city of birth. Seems like that source is another Thai tourism gimmick propaganda.


QUOTE
Srivijaya (200s-1400) was an ancient Malay kingdom on the island of Sumatra which influenced much of the Malay Archipelago. Records of its beginning are scarce while estimations range from the 200s to the 500s. The kingdom ceased to exist around 1400. In Sanskrit, sri means 'shining' or 'radiant' and vijaya means victory or excellence.

Formation and growth
Around year 500, Srivijayan roots begun to develop around present-day Palembang, Sumatra in Indonesia. Chinese records dated 600 mention two Sumatran kingdoms based in Jambi and Palembang as well as three other kingdoms on Java.

Srivijaya was a coastal trading center and was a thalassocracy. As such, it did not extend its influence far beyond the coastal areas of the islands of Southeast Asia. The empire was organised in three main zones — the estuarine capital region centred on Palembang, the Musi River basin which served as hinterland and rival estuarine areas capable of forming rival power centres. The capital was administered directly by the ruler while the hinterland remained under its own local datus or chiefs who were organized into a network of allegiance to the Srivijaya maharaja or king. Force was the dominant element in the empire's relations with rival river systems such as the Batang Hari which centered in Jambi. The ruling lineage intermarried with the Sailendras of Central Java.

Srivijaya remained a formidable sea power until the thirteenth century.


Vajrayana Buddhism
A stronghold of Vajrayana Buddhism, Srivijaya attracted pilgrims and scholars from other parts of Asia. These included the Chinese monk Yijing, who made several lengthy visits to Sumatra on his way to study at Nalanda in India in 671 and 695, and the eleventh-century Buddhist scholar Atisha, who played a major role in the development of Vajrayana Buddhism in Tibet. Travellers to these islands mentioned that gold coinage was in use on the coasts, but not inland.


Relationship with regional powers
Although historical records and archaeological evidence are scarce, it appears that by the seventh century, Srivijaya established suzerainty over large areas of Sumatra, western Java and much of the Malay Peninsula. Dominating the Malacca and Sunda straits, Srivijaya controlled both the spice route traffic and local trade, charging a toll on passing ships. Serving as an entrepôt for Chinese, Malay, and Indian markets, the port of Palembang, accessible from the coast by way of a river, accumulated great wealth.


The Jambi kingdom was the first rival power centre absorbed into the empire, starting the domination of the region through trade and conquest in the 7th and 9th centuries. Srivijaya helped spread the Malay culture throughout Sumatra, the Malay Peninsula, and western Borneo. Srivijaya influence waned in the 11th century. The island was in frequent conflict with, and ultimately subjugated by, from Javanese kingdoms, first Singhasari and then Majapahit.

Some historians claim that Chaiya in the Surat Thani province in Southern Thailand was at least temporarily the capital of Srivijaya but this claim is largely disputed. However, Chaiya was probably a regional center of the kingdom. The temple Borom That in Chaiya contains a reconstructed pagoda in Srivijaya style. The Khmer kingdom may also had been a tributary in its early stages. They also maintained close relations with the Pala Empire in Bengal and an inscription that dates 860 records that the maharaja of Srivijaya dedicated a monastery at the Nalanda university in Pala territory. Relations with the Chola dynasty of south India were initially friendly but it deteriorated into actual warfare in the eleventh century.


Golden age
After trade disruption at Canton between 820 to 850, the ruler of Jambi was able to assert enough independence to send missions to China in 853 and 871. Jambi's independence coincided with the troubled time when the Sailendran Balaputra, expelled from Java, seized the throne of Srivijaya. The new maharaja was able to despatch a tributary mission to China by 902. Only two years later, the expiring Tang dynasty conferred a title on a Srivijayan envoy.

In the first half of the tenth century, between the fall of Tang and the rise of Song, there was brisk trade between the overseas world and the Fujian kingdom of Min and the rich Guangdong kingdom of Nan Han. Srivijaya undoubtedly benefited from this, preparatory to the prosperity it was to enjoy under the early Song. Circa 903, Muslim writer Ibn Rustah was so impressed with the wealth of Srivijaya's ruler that he declared one would not hear of a king who was richer, stronger or with more revenue.


Decline
In 1068, Virarajendra, the Chola king of Coromandel, conquered Kedah from Srivijaya. The Cholas continued a series of raids and conquests throughout what is now Indonesia and Malaysia for the next 20 years. Although the Chola invasion was ultimately unsuccessful, it gravely weakened the Srivijayan hegemony and enabled the formation of regional kingdoms based, like Kediri, on intensive agriculture rather than coastal and long distance trade

Islam made its way to the Aceh region of Sumatra, spreading through contacts with Arabs and Indian traders. By the late 13th century, the kingdom of Pasai in northern Sumatra converted to Islam. At the same time, Srivijaya was briefly a tributary of the Khmer empire and later the Sukhothai kingdom. The last inscription dates to 1374, in a crown prince, Ananggavarman, is mentioned.

By 1402 Parameswara, the last prince of Srivijaya founded the Sultanate of Malacca on the Malay peninsula. He converted to Islam in 1414.

The name of the empire was rediscovered by George Coedës in the 1920s, who noticed that the Chinese references to Sanfoqi, previously read as as Sribhoja and the inscriptions in Old Malay refer to the same empire.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya
AnAttA
Well, I'm out of here.
rasibiduk
Muaro Jambi site in Jambi

....there are at least 70 ruins in the Muaro Jambi Archaeological site by the river of Batanghari. Out of those 70, eight candis (temple) and one pool have been excavated and renovated, they are Candi Kotamahligai, Candi Kedaton, Candi Gedong I, Candi Gedong II, Candi Gumpung, Candi Tinggi, Candi Kembar Batu, Candi Astano, and Telagorajo Pool.

Various artefacts found in the site show that Muaro jambi is a legacy from the Buddhist Srivijaya kingdom during its heyday from the 10th to the 13th century. This assumption is proven with the existence of Prajnaparamita statue and dozens Buddhist stupas in Candi Gumpung, ceramics from Sung dynasty, and macrocosmic and microcosmic concept which is a typical layout for a Mahayana Buddhist buildings.

user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

sources/pics: www.trekearth.com, www.muarojambi.go.id, www.pbase.com/nlhpoel, www.arkeologi.net
malaccan
@TonyL: Am I right to say that Kedah was also a secondary, albeit minor, centre on the Malay peninsula? Kedah's history on the mainland predates that of Malacca. The Candi Lembah Bujang is one of the most historical archaeological sites there.

@purnomor: Thanks for posting the Wikipedia Srivijaya entry in its entirity. I just provided the link at the very start, maybe I should've done what you did. I forgot completely that your birthplace was near Bukit Seguntang. icon_redface.gif

@AnAtta: It'd be great if you can tell us more Srivijaya links in south Thailand. I think purnomor was just pointing out that most literatures agree that Palembang was considered the capital of Srivijaya, and which doesn't take away the fact that Chaiya was an important regional centre in its own right. We should always take all internet sources with a pinch of salt, both online encyclopaedias and tourist websites. I hope you'll continue to post here. Otherwise, I wish you all the best at being ordained later.

One thing I'll say is that it would seem at this point the Thais take more steps to preserve old Srivijayan customs than the Indonesians and definitely Malaysians. The Malays in Malaysia have mostly turned our backs on our Buddhist-Hindu past, unlike Thailand which is a living, breathing Buddhist nation. Thus it's only natural for any Buddhist links in Thailand to be carefully nurtured and then maintained, which is expressed for example in the Srivijayan-inspired dance forms. And of course the Buddhist teachings themselves live on.

@rasibiduk: Thanks. Can't see all the pics unfortunately.
TonyL
Srivijaya kingdom extended from South east Sumatra its influence on Kedah before 700( also recorded by I Ching ) So Kedah became part of the empire and was important stopover for traders before they went to /from Palembang, capital of Srivijaya .

Just dropping by. Party is almost starting in Europe beerchug.gif
Nusantara
Tha Malay kingdom of Sriwijaya based in Sumatra and Malay peninsular controlling down to south untill west Java (Sunda) and up to north until Patani and to the east to Borneo. They were among greatest kingdom in Malay Archipelago like Majapahit based in East Java with the empire of Sriwijaya almost as large as Majapahit.
Majapahitans
Yeah..., thanks to them..., in 6-7th century AD the Tarumanagara Kingdom in Sunda, West Java are collaps, so Sundanese move their capital eastward to Galuh (now Ciamis)....

But as Indonesian I'm also proud of Sriwijaya empire.....
dalawapo
why is malay's kingdom of srivijaya located in sumatra and not in malay penninsula??? isnt that your center of origin? what is the kingdom in malay pennisula?
AEROFORCE1
The Srivijaya in south of Thailand still keep their Identity ,because Thailand is budish so not things change much.
purnomor
QUOTE(dalawapo @ Jan 3 2006, 07:06 PM)
why is malay's kingdom of srivijaya located in sumatra and not in malay penninsula??? isnt that your center of origin? what is the kingdom in malay pennisula?
*



The first Malay kingdoms, Malayu and Srivijaya, arose in 6th century AD in Sumatera. It is really Srivijayan Empire that spread Malay culture to Malay Peninsula.
dalawapo
wait im confused.

so the origin of the malay people is sumatra and then the malay people transmigrated to malay penisula and bring with them the srivijaya culture, later they were converted to islam and then brought under english colonization which eventually lead to malaysian state?
purnomor
QUOTE(dalawapo @ Jan 3 2006, 10:18 PM)
wait im confused.

so the origin of the malay people is sumatra and then the malay people transmigrated to malay penisula and bring with them the srivijaya culture, later they were converted to islam and then brought under english colonization which eventually lead to malaysian state?
*



correct
Sirikittong
As an Ayuthayan Thai...I proudly say that Sri Vijaya was a powerful and culturally rich ancient political entity that deserves respect. It is in great similarities with the great kingdoms of the past such as Angkor Kampujia, Ayuthaya, and Champa.
Iron Malayan
QUOTE(dalawapo @ Jan 3 2006, 10:18 PM)
wait im confused.

so the origin of the malay people is sumatra and then the malay people transmigrated to malay penisula and bring with them the srivijaya culture,
*

Not exactly.

When Malays arrived in SE Asia, they settled on both sides of the straits at the same time.

Malays did not end up along this important straits by accident.

Our ancestors knew exactly why they want to emigrate to this strategic location long before they set off.



malaccan
Thanks for the input Nusantara, Majapahitans, purnomor.
@Siri: You derserve a special mention! What a nice surprise to see you here. I know you secretly think that Ayutthaya is the gloriest kingdom of them all right! icon_wink.gif
@Dalawapo: There were already other Malay kingdoms on the peninsula. Here are some links to pique your interest. Do keep in mind though that they are merely internet resources just like Wikipedia, not peer-reviewed journals or discources that we can cite with confidence. Sabri Zain is a Malaysian based in the UK, quite an eccentric fellow with interesting things to say. While there very strong ties between Sumatran-based Srivijaya and the Malay peninsula, other kingdoms also existed on the mainland. Here are Sabri's links to two of them, Langkasuka and Kedah

So why focus on Srivijaya? It is because it is the immediate predecessor to Malacca which is the cornerstone of modern Malay thoughts and ideas. It was Malacca that was responsible for the explosive spread of Islam and the Malay language throughout the islands. Islam had indeed reached the Malay peninsula (near modern day terengganu and Kelantan) before Malacca came into being (the Terengganu Stone), and there are records of Islam having reached Champa as early as 1000. But it was Malacca that was instrumental in propagating the religion to the rest of the archipelago. Unlike the Buddhist Thais which Aeroforce so rightly emphasised still mantain their identity, and the Javanese who had been exposed to Hinduism by way of the great kingdom of Majapahit and its successors for a few more centuries to come, the Malays were/are not as appreciative of its pre-Islam past, in which the Buddhist trading kingdom of Srivijaya looms large.
rasibiduk
btw Malaccan, any further new development over the "finding' of a lost city somewhere in Johor, Kota Gelanggi if I'm not mistaken. It was a very big news in Malaysia last year but then it vanished completely from the radar.
Sirikittong
Impressive sea faring abilities of the Malay people and the Sri Vijayans at that! Do post some clothes and dances of sri vijaya Malaccan! As well..what is your name my kon malay brother. ?

Sirikittong
biggthumpup.gif user posted image

Sri Vichai or Srivijaya Dance is the second in the set of five

archaeological dances conceived by Dhanit Yupho, Director General

of the Fine Arts Department, in 1967. The choreography was by

Lamoon Yamakupt and Chaleuy Sukavanich, and music by Montri

Tramote. The Srivijaya period extenced from the 8th to the 13th

centuries and its influence expanded from Indonesia to cover the

Southern part of Thailand. The choreography is based on images on the

great stupa of Borobudo in Central Java and other artifacts of the

Srivijaya period. The melody was also composed in Javanese style.

The music instruments used are, the Pi-Krajab, Thai three stringed

fiddle, the Klue, the Tapone, the Klong-Khaek, the Ching, the small

Charp and the Krap. beerchug.gif beerchug.gif beerchug.gif laugh.gif
malaccan
@Siri: Do you know how difficult it is to get anything re Srivijaya in the net? LOL.
And I've already mentioned my name in this chat. Look under the Childhood Memories thread. It also starts with an S icon_wink.gif

@rasibiduk: I was thinking about the very same thing and subsequently about how lacking Malaysia is compared to our neighbours when it comes to research on antiquities. I think the story has just died down rasibiduk. I wasn't in Malaysia to follow the story, so you probably know as much about it as I do. It's a shame, really. The guy who re-discovered it pretty much did it single-handedly. And interestingly I've read articles about how the government wasn't as forthcoming with help as they could have been. I really believe that all over the Malay peninsula are rich archaelogical sites rich for the pickings. What is lacking is the political will, certainly not monetary resources to look for and excavate them.

Here's the link for articles from The Star newspaper. These are merely articles written by journalists, so pretty much everything reported has to remain suspect.
Lost City of Kota Gelanggi
rasibiduk
thanks for the link Malaccan, yes- it is just seems odd for an area with such strategic location and recorded historical past like the Malay peninsula to not produce any major Hindu/Buddhist archaeological remains. We can only wonder what the forest hides and buries underneath.

For Sirikittong, this is Gending Sriwijaya dance, a dance from Palembang, the birthplace of Sriwijaya:
user posted image
user posted image
Iron Malayan
QUOTE
The 12th century Arab geographer El Idrisi writes in Kitab Rujar about the inhabitants of Zabaj who travel to Sofala and Zanj on the coast of sub-Saharan Africa: The residents of the Zabaj go to the land of Sofala and export the iron from there supplying it to all the lands of India. No iron is comparable to theirs in quality and sharpness......The inhabitants of Zabaj call at Zanj in both large and small ships and trade their merchandise with them, as they understand each other's language

malaccan
^How does the quote relate to Srivijaya, IM?

Thanks for the sharing photos rasibiduk. love2.gif I couldn't find more Srivijayan dance pics under a generic Srivijaya google image search. icon_redface.gif
Iron Malayan
QUOTE(malaccan @ Jan 5 2006, 02:46 PM)
^How does the quote relate to Srivijaya, IM?
*


Zabaj is the Arab name for Sriwijaya

TonyL
QUOTE
Malaccan : 
Unlike the Buddhist Thais which Aeroforce so rightly emphasised still mantain their identity, and the Javanese who had been exposed to Hinduism by way of the great kingdom of Majapahit and its successors for a few more centuries to come, the Malays were/are not as appreciative of its pre-Islam past, in which the Buddhist trading kingdom of Srivijaya looms large.


Hey... it was not the religion, it were the people sure.gif
Srivijaya was also great religious centre but its succes as having the monopoly of the S E asian maritime tradewas not due to dancing or religion. Srivijaya was in the first place a seapower controlling former piracy in the southern part of the Straits, offering best facilities and creating a large trading network with conquests and allegiances.
QUOTE
Rasibiduk :
thanks for the link Malaccan, yes- it is just seems odd for an area with such strategic location and recorded historical past like the Malay peninsula to not produce any major Hindu/Buddhist archaeological remains. We can only wonder what the forest hides and buries underneath.


There will be found more, On Sumatra and on Malay pen. but its often the case the centre has the least preserved ruins. Take Rome in Europe, many ruins but the best preserved are in whats now Turkey and Northern Africa.
Sirikittong
thanks for the pic
malaccan
QUOTE(TonyL @ Jan 5 2006, 08:11 PM)
Hey... it was not the religion, it were the people sure.gif
Srivijaya was also great religious centre but its succes as having the monopoly of the S E asian maritime tradewas not due to dancing or religion. Srivijaya was in the first place a  seapower controlling former  piracy in the southern part of the Straits, offering best facilities and creating a large trading network with conquests and allegiances.
*


Interesting isn't it how piracy was a problem back then in the Malaccan Straits, just like it is today. A port offering the best facilities, with large trading networks and allegiances/agreements. That just described Singapore. icon_smile.gif

At the time of Funan, trade from India to China was done via an overland route across the isthmus of Kra rather than through Malaccan Straits. What is the reason for the change in status quo?
TonyL
Malaccan,Jan 5 2006, 04:32 PM
QUOTE
Interesting isn't it how piracy was a problem back then in the Malaccan Straits, just like it is today. A port offering the best facilities, with large trading networks and allegiances/agreements. That just described Singapore.  icon_smile.gif

Much of it applied to Malacca too.

QUOTE
At the time of Funan, trade from India to China was done via an overland route across the isthmus of Kra rather than through Malaccan Straits. What is the reason for the change in status quo?

Many things happened , to name few things :
Growing ( Chinese) interest in archipelago products ( Sumatran camphor, benzoin etc ) Monsoon sailing became more 'standard' >Funan out of the route. And offcoure Srivijaya controlling whip.gif piracy and contesters made them nr 1 .
Sirikittong
I understand that the sri vijayan empire was conquored in later years, but why didnt the ruling house escape to a neighbouring province? was the downfall completely accepted by tributary states or were there objections?

Thanks in advance.
TonyL
Really interesting biggrin.gif To get a good picture about later periode its important to distinguish between internet info( usefull for first impression but some parts are dramatized or incomplete excerpts of historical books ) and the works of experts and the ORIGINAL historical sources( ancient historical data ).

Get back later in the weekend.
TonyL
double
malaccan
My impression is that by the end of its rule, Srivijaya seemed already very much weakened by the other Indonesian states esp Majapahit, and its lands on the Malay peninsula were already fighting off Ayutthaya. It would seem that there was a very fluid balance of various spheres of influences by that time.

The decline of of the Srivijaya empire lasted for a relatively long period and was not affected by a single cataclysmic event that would have meant the flight of its royalty and ruling class to a more sympathetic entity like the fleeing Sailendras to Srivijaya earlier. The various readings show that even after the attack from the Cholas of India which weakened its grip on its territories, Srivijaya managed to gain back much of what it lost later. the ruling family stayed on.

Srivijaya just gradually losts its influence to Majapahit and then Ayutthaya over a period of time, and its territories made new alliance and paid tribute to the other dominant powers. So by the time that Parameswara fleed Palembang circa 1400, he wasn't faced by either open hostility nor accepted with open arms by old tributaires. Srivijaya by that point was already a spent force. I don't recall specificaly the particular attack that caused Parameswara to flee Palembang, but it wasn't a particularly dramatic assault. But it did make him decide to make a clean break and start anew elsewhere.
prahok
was Sri Vijaya involved in any major wars or any wars at all during that time?
dalawapo
does srivijaya flow easily from the tongue? i getting headache to say srivijaya 10 times in a row very fastly... or maybe i dont know the correct pronouncation. icon_sad.gif is there a b sounding in place of v-ijaya??
Iron Malayan
Some historians suggested that Sriwijaya lost its trading colonies in east Africa to the Arab Muslims and then they unseccesfully tried to get it back with a massive naval expedition in 945 but I am not sure if the WakWak mentioned here are Srivijayan Malays.
QUOTE
The presence of Melayu in western Indonesian Ocean began to decline from the 8th century under the pressure of the emerging Muslim competition. However, by the 10th century, the Malays tried to reconquer the African coasts with an enormous expedition (Arabic texts talk about a thousand ships) but without success.[10] Since then, they had ceased to frequent the region

[10] MAUNY, Raymond. "The Wakwak and the Indonesian invasion in East Africa in 945 A.D.", Studia (Lisboa), 1965, 15, pp.7-16. MOLLAT, Michel. "Les contacts historiques de l'Afrique et de Madagascar avec l'Asie du Sud et du Sud-Est: le rôle de l'Océan Indien", Archipel, 21, 1981: 35-53.


QUOTE
In about the year 945, the island of
|anbalå, probably situated in the archipelago of the Comoros, was the object of invasions by marine pirates possibly based on Madagascar. The book of The marvels of India by Buzurg b.÷9ahriy§r, a Persian ofR§mhurmuz, states in fact: “Ibn Lakis tells me that he has seen the people of the W§Î-w§Î perform amazing things. It is thus that in 334/945-6, they came upon them in a thousand ships and fought them with the utmost vigour, without however achieving their end, since |anbalå is surrounded by a strong defensive wall around which stretches the water-filled estuary of the sea, so that |anbalåis at the centre of this estuary like a fortified citadel. When people of theW§Î-W§Î subsequently came ashore there, they asked them why they had come specifically there and not elsewhere. They replied that this was because among them there were to be found products sought after in their country and in China, such as ivory, tortoise shell, panther hides and ambergris, and because they were seeking out the Zanù3, on account of the ease with which they endured slavery and on account of their physical strength. They said that they had come from a distance of one year's sailing, that they had pillaged islands situated six days' journey time from |anbalå and had taken possession of a certain number of villages and towns of Sof§laof the Zanù3, to say nothing of others which they did not know. If these people spoke the truth and if their account was accurate, this would confirm what Ibn Lakis said of the islands of the W§Î-w§Î: that they are situated opposite China”. Today there is a consensus that these pirates were Indonesians based in Madagascar who pillaged the Comoros and the coast of the Zanù3
http://www.encislam.brill.nl/data/EncIslam/S4/SIM-4724.html


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