I'm not here to offend anybody, but I am curious if young thai teens these days know that Northern Area of thailand once belonged to laos, and that the majority of those people living in that area are laotian whom they call Issan? I'm wondering if they teach that part of history in Thailand or just leave it out? as I said before not to brag out anybody but curious on if they get taught this part of history in schools and etc.

Yeah Thai kids know, most people call Issan people Lao anyway.

So what My grandpa is chinese ,but I am Thai. And the grandpa of Isan people is Chinese but they are also Thai.

Issan are Thai. If we are going to discuss the originality of all things then by reason we thais are chinese. lol. get the point?

I lived among people from Issan and lao.
Even they speak the same language but they are noticeable different too.
Lao and Issan might be the same in term of culture. But Issan people are thai by heart by soul. I'm not going too far if I say Issan people willing to kill if Thailand was attcked by lao.
To me Issan is THAI.
LAO is LAO.

No. Thais are NOT chinese.

In Southeast Asia, Kingdoms rise and fall. Their borders expand and shrink all the time. It's just matters of politics. Your claim that "Northern Area of thailand once belonged to laos" could very well be true, but only at one specific time of the history. At other times, it was no longer true. People should really move on and stop using history to their nationalistic/racist purposes.

Because it's really too much now. Historically speaking, all of the following statements are true (at one particular point of time) :

Northern Area of thailand once belonged to the Mon
Northern Area of thailand once belonged to the Khmer
Northern Area of thailand once belonged to laos (Vientiane at one time, Luang Prabang at others)
Northern Area of thailand once belonged to Burma
Northern Area of thailand once belonged to Ayutthaya
Northern Area of thailand once belonged to Bangkok
And there's the French who once claimed that the area also belonged to them !!!

I hope you can see now that if everyone tries to claim things by using history, it's gonna be a never-ending story. So, please please stop this kind of rhetoric. It's not gonna get anyone anywhere.

You need to move on !!!

Quaid, I was merely making a point.

got it.

Many people in Bangkok has Mon anchestor ,are Mon burmese? Who are mon?

I know tai came down from china, Just wondering if they teach the origins of Issan people, just that part of history, not the when Thai and Lao didnt exist and the land was part of Khmers,
Move on? Quaid I'm just asking if they teach that part in school at thailand,

They are an earlier kind of people, AERO, The Mon are the earliest known inhabitants of lower Burma. They founded an empire, and introduced both writing and Buddhism into Burma.

In the year 573, two Mon brothers, Prince Samala and Prince Wimala, founded the Mon kingdom Hongsavatoi at the present site of modern Pegu. This kingdom flourished in peace and prosperity for several centuries until it was occupied by the Burman dynasty.

In 1757, the Burma ruler U Aungzeya invaded and devastated the Mon kingdom, killing tens of thousands of Mon, including learned Mon priests, pregnant women, and children. Over 3,000 priests were massacred by the victorious Burmans in the capital city alone. Thousands more priests were killed in the countryside.The surviving priests fled to Thailand, and Burman priests took over the monasteries. Most of the Mon literature, written on palm leaves, was destroyed by the Burmans. Use of the Mon language was forbidden, and Burman became the medium of instruction.Mon people were persecuted, oppressed, and enslaved, and countless people were burned in holocausts, like the Jews before the Nazis. Mon properties and possessions were looted and burned throughout Burma. Mons fled further south into Burma's Tenasserim Division and east into Thailand.

His Majesty King Bumibol the Great is said to have mon blood, as did King Chakri I.

Some images of Mon people:







a mon town in Mynamar (Burma)

By using your logic in 'history', then Laos and Cambodia all inertly belong to Thailand does it not? Considering Laos and most of Cambodia were under the political control of the Ethereal Great Kingdom of Siam no? Considering we defeated the Laotians in 1826 and conquored the three lao kingdoms of lauang prabang, savanakhett and viang chang (vientiane); as well defeated the Khmers and imposed our control over much of Kampuchea at the same time.

But you know what. That is history.

Then again..there are some of us that see Laos as a 'rogue province of Thailand'

No need to list names..

Another Logic of history is that Laos was given independence and is a soveriegn nation and has had a modern monarch. But you know that is history.

Care to discuss your beliefs of why laos is a rogue state of Thailand? You're welcome over to the Laotion forum.

interesting, I wonder if Isan and Lao people are treated as second class citizens

haha, Thailand will not bring up history on Laos..... Because the Khmer beat them to that.

There's a huge map developed by National Geographic that shows the ethnic distribution (Lao, Mien, Khmu, Yao, Cham, Siam, etc) that are scattered throughout the area of SE Asia. On the map, you'll see distrubtion of ethnic Lao in Thailand. Someone in America was gonna go to Thailand and gave it to someone, but they fear the Thai inspector will snatch it away.

^Thats a threat to National Security.

The Thai national assymulation (1930s) is a strong factor in keeping Thailand United. Thai=Free, wouldnt you want to be free?

Imagine if the Issan denounce there Thai Nationality. The Surins to the south of Issan do the same, along with the Mons, the Shans, and even the Chinese in the Cities.

That would be interesting.... If the Thais views the others as second class citizens, while the neighboring countries develope, that can turn around and bite them.

They are not second class citizens. Such ridiculous propaganda is typical of the impoverished government in Vientiane, which begs annually for economic aid in bangkok. Actually, Thailand does not need to take over Laos militarily, as we control the country economically.

ouch! i just came back from loas...man i didnt realise it but the language really is the same except they use slightly different words. why dont you both agree they came form the same place...whos to say who owned who?

lol. Im not denying the similarities, corky! C'mon..you know me better than that.

hahahah I Love all of your Replys Sirikittong.... just love em!

You say that they are not second class citizens, but you sound like Darth Vador.

Your comment denies it, yet your tone implies it.....

LOL. Darth Vader?? hahahahaha OH GOD I LOVE THAT!

C'mon..I dont hold any ethnic bigotries towards the honorable kon lao. They are our brothers; and are racially similar to us; we are all part of the tai ethnic stock. Lao, thai and shan and karen burmans are all ethnic tais. I hold great respect for that; however, I believe those regions would be better off under Thai administrative control.

My opinion.

No, Karen are part of the Tibeto-Karen stock within Sino-Tibetan. Karenic is sister to Tibeto-Burman which includes Burmese.

Karrenii burmans have intermingled so much with the ethnic shan; that they are basically tai ethnic now.

well charlee answered my question, thats all I need to know

I don't believe you I'm Issan. Issan area never belong to laos but laos ever belong to Siam ( call Thailand now ). So your topic is wrong.

Hahahahahah. I just love the Thai educational system. No wonder so many Thai members on this forum are clueless. In case you haven't seen it, listen to this Issan man. He speaks the truth and nothing but the truth. We live in the information age now, so the truth is coming out. Siam try to destory our Lao Lanxang and wipe out out from the map, but we still here. And now we're rising like the great phoenix from the ashes to reclaim what Thailand stole from us. Thailand can steal our land, steal our people, steal our Pha Keo, but Thailand can never steal our pride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Liwz91qG4

How do you feel about eskimos, Lanxan?

---oo0oo---

Having had a little bit of a web-search into Laos, which incidentally has its pown forum listing, and needn't really be added to the Thai sub-forum, but I gotta wonder where your youtube education has led you.

According to the Wikipaedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Laos , Laos got independence in 1954, as cut and pasted below:

Before full independence in 1954

In the 17th century Lan Xang entered a period of decline and the late 18th century Siam (now Thailand) established control over much of what is now Laos. The region was divided into three dependent states centered on Luang Prabang in the north, Vientiane in the center, and Champassak in the south. The Vientiane Lao rebelled in 1828 but were defeated, and the area incorporated into Siam. Following its occupation of Vietnam, France absorbed Laos into French Indochina via treaties with Siam in 1893 and 1904.

During World War II, the Japanese occupied French Indochina. When Japan surrendered, Lao nationalists declared Laos independent, but by early 1946, French troops had reoccupied the country and conferred limited autonomy on Laos. During the First Indochina War, the Indochinese Communist Party formed the Pathet Lao resistance organization committed to Lao independence. Laos gained full independence following the French defeat by the Vietnamese communists and the subsequent Geneva peace conference in 1954.

The period of the Kingdom of Laos

Elections were held in 1955, and the first coalition government, led by Prince Souvanna Phouma, was formed in 1957. The coalition government collapsed in 1958 under pressure from the United States. In 1960 Captain Kong Lae staged a coup when the cabinet was away at the royal capital of Luang Prabang and demanded reformation of a neutralist government. The second coalition government, once again led by Souvanna Phouma, was not successful in holding power. Rightist forces under General Phoumi Nosavan drove out the neutralist government from power later that same year.

A second Geneva conference, held in 1961-62, provided for the independence and neutrality of Laos, but the agreement was subverted by both the United States and North Vietnam and the war soon resumed. The government and army of Laos were generally neutral during the conflict. The United States and North Vietnam subverted the agreement by forming private proxy armies. Growing American and North Vietnamese military presence in the country increasingly drew Laos into the Second Indochina War (1954-1975). For nearly a decade, eastern Laos was subjected to the heaviest bombing in the history of warfare[1], as the U.S. sought to destroy the Ho Chi Minh Trail that passed through Laos. The country was also repeatedly invaded by Vietnam.

Shortly after the Paris Peace Accords led to the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Vietnam, a ceasefire between the Pathet Lao and the government led to a new coalition government. However, North Vietnam never really withdrew from Laos and the Pathet Lao remained little more than a proxy army for Vietnamese interests. After the fall of South Vietnam to communist forces in April 1975, the Pathet Lao with the backing of North Vietnam were able to take total power with little resistance. On December 2, 1975, the king was forced to abdicate his throne and the Lao People's Democratic Republic was established.


Also, from what I know, "laotian" is a word adapted by the American media sometime in the 1960s because Lao was too confusing to the American viewers to be accepted as the adjective for people and things from Laos. Would it be possible then that the reason that most Thai people do not know that Issan people were once laotian might be because the North-Eastern region of Thailand has been a part of the Kingdom since long before the word "laotian"was ever concocted?

I just love the youtube educational system. It takes away the desire for hallucinogenic drugs, for starters.



Please correct me if Wikipaedia is wrong on the 1954 date, and if I have misread the entry. I don't think there's any mistake on the laotian part though. Thailand has enough Macdonalds stores already without more American misnomers. Perhaps it is not the Thai education system that needs to be criticised. This is the information age after all. I have pride in Wiki.

I get ur point...I feel the same way with u.
but what the owner of this topic wanted to say is that
Not only the Land...but it's about the people..the people.
Most of ppl now who live in Isan was the Lao people who migrated to Isan just less than 200 years ago. (in 1828)

Talking about the Land well...the land used to be a part of Khmer Empire, then Lanchang and Then Siam.

But the point is the people not the land itself ...Lao ppl (most r from Viengchan) were forced to migrate to another side of Mekhong river during 1778 and 1828.
And now Thai citizen Lao ppl in Thai now more than 20 millions included Lao ppl who voluntarily refuge from war,
currently, 34,2% of current Thai population are said to be Ethnic Lao.

To be fair for both side....I will say that both Isan ppl and current Laotian ppl were Lanchang ppl.
coz we our ppl used to live in Lanchang Kingdom.

well here is the map of Lanchang Kingdom which include esarn, chiangmai, and some of nothern part of central Thai, before these part of Land and people belong to Siam.

Yes Isan ppl and current Laotian ppl share alot of similarity in either Language and Culture, Sticky rice, Papaya salad..etc
Cause once we were both Lanchang ppl living in the same kingdom.

Lanchang

i DO KNOW.

I always call e-sarn ppl LAO.

My e-sarn workers call themselves LAO too.

But e-sarns living overseas call themselves THAIS.

And younger e-sarn generations will punch you in the face if you call them LAO.

Only e-sarn ppl living in rural area still speaking LAO.

Young and educated e-sarn don't speak LAO.

An e-sarn friend who used to lived in Australia hates LAO ppl so much.

Because most of farm contractors are LAO and they taking advantage of e-sarn ppl who working illegally.

He told me to never trust a LAO.

He said it is like in the history books, LAO always backstabbing thais.

More than 20-25 millions Thai citizen Ethinic Lao ppl now are said to be living in Thai.

They are educated in the way that they even forget their own language(?)
Even of the same ancestors, the Lao of the west bank are taught to hate and look down on their own ancestors(?).
Is that racist?

No wonder why some Lao member here have prejudice on Thai ppl here, coz u guys look down and discriminate them.

you can tell your esarn friends that it's ok to be associated with lao people, ok. trust me on that because i'm the most trustworthy lao person on earth.

pretty obvious

there are reasons to that.

thai ppl won't dare to look down at LAO ppl, if they are rich.

it is not about race, history, culture or anything. it is about MONEY.

Oh...then I got it.

It's true that even now in many countries, there is still discrimination based on their races, color, history, culture or money rather than their personal charactor.
In the future, hopefully all race of ppl will be friendly to each other.

Anyway, let's end discussion of this topic.

.

Most Thais do know that Issan people are "Lao". It's only the ignorant ones that don't know. Issan people were called "Lao" until spread of Communism in South East Asia, that's when the Thai government decided to drop the word Lao and replaced it with "Issan". You need to research your history before you open your mouth next time.

http://www.geocities.com/siamsmile365/isaan/isaan.htm
"The Isaan people are of Laotian descent and until the 1960s, they were still called Lao. In fact, the Isaan region was actually a part of Laos until 1907, when it was partitioned under French colonial rule and ceded to Thailand.

Isaan dialect (also called North-Eastern Thai) is really nothing but Lao. It is virtually 100% Lao in vocabulary and intonation; in fact there are more Lao speakers living in Thailand than in Laos..."

Actually, I believe it was Prince Damrong(?) who started using "Issan" to describe the Lao people of the Northeast.

I dont know what is ur point? that Central Thais dont know the ppl of Isan are Lao? or the term Laotian?

Most ppl know Isan ppl are prodominately Lao, so not sure what the argument is?

See there is a Flaw on most Thai ppls arguments. Isan are Thai nationals, they cant be ethnic Thai, because Thai is not an ethnicity. Even so, If they were Thai ethnic's, then that would destroy any credibility of there being such a think as an ethnic Thai. because all of history knows, they are Lao.

THe reference of them being Lao goes, to the core of every manuscript of, Lanxang, Lanna, Burma, and ayutthaya, that suggest they are Lao. the fact that somehow they can change their DNA to being some sort of newly creaed ethnic race of ppl, is absolutely redicuous.

It wasnt until recent history, around that date 1950, that the Central Thais refered to the ppl of Isaan and Northern Thailand as being Ethnic Lao. The name Siamese ppl gave to the ppl of Chiangmai was the "Lao tong dam." and before the nationality was changed on ID cards to "Thai" vs. Siamese and other groups within the country. the Northern Thais and Isaan ppl's ID cards identified them as being ethnic Lao. This is still in recent history, most our parents were just born or are still alive at that point in time.

but there is no mistaken to the effort by the thai government to re-educate the population in thinking somehow there is only Thai. To the point, the Siamese no longer exist as a defined group?

I dont know one Thai person that refers to themselves as being Siamese? why is that. the thaification was so extreme, that even the Siamese ceased to exist, and the word "Thai" became some blurred group of ppl, who dont have any true starting point in history.

There is no mistaken the Thai's who were so worried about ethnic identify and pride, they did all they could to erase everything that wasnt this newly created theme, which is "THai" and "Thaification"; Khmer, Lao, Mala, Mon, all these ethnic groups that make up the actual Thai ppl, had to be erased. so since their birth, only a carefully crafted central Thai hisotry had been created and was taught, thus the begining of the history of Tai ppl ignored.

Which is Fine, but that is the past, there is a Thai Nation today, so my problem is, why still try to lie? Isnt thailand finally at a point, that it is comfortable in their own skin, proud enough of their own unity and identity, that the truth can finally be taught. or are they still insecure about themselves, that they still insist on teaching their ppl a false history.

that is all im concerned about. u cant have true unity under false premise. if Thailand can withstand telling the truth to their citizens, and keep that unity, only then will they become a true Nation.

I dont want anything from Thailand, they are my pi-nong, i care that they are stable, because what benefits their nation, benefits Laos, being that we are so close. By try not to lie about who u really are, is my concern. Like i said, doing so, u have this false Idea of who u are, and that isnt good. lets truely unite by telling the truth.

Yeh, you're right Siri, don't forget about Rama 2 and 3 too.

Isaan people can be a mix of real Thai, Laos, and Khmer...mabe mon too.

Straight to the point. I like that. What happend to our beautiful Luk Saut Falang, charlee???

Isaan people have still same tradision from Loas, like eat somtam, laab, and sticky rice all day long, and overbelives .
Still real thai people call isaan people " laaw" yes, whatever you write here , you cannot change thai oppinions p

Some lao members are denying that Issan people are ethnic Lao.

they are fool then lol, just like the khmer ( in USA) denied people of surin, sisaket and buriram is not ethnic khmer

I am Tai Yuan, (Northern Thai) I have to say that Thai in the North, North East, South etc. consider our self Thai, while we regonise our histories as a differents nation from the central Thai in the past. And also Thai in the North does NOT belong to the Lao of LanXang biologically or ethically. We belong to the Tai Yuan's Kingdom of Lanna (Million Rice Field). Inaddition, if peoples from Cambodia and Lao going to denield that the North Eastern peoples use to be their ethics group members, then why so piss about it when they insist that they are Thai. (Which they are Thai)

and sorry for my poor English. I have to write something because I cant stand this nonsense.

Your English is too poor to be a Thai.

Im sorry that my English is Poor because its my fourth Language that I learn at the age of 16. Now im 18. If you have me being a Thai and being poor in English, then you should learn the Thai educational system.

I think Sawan mean your English is good enough to be Thai, and I think you mean you are proud Thai and no one want to be Lao, right?