Hello all! This is my first post in Asiafinest discussion board.

I am writing a paper on the Philippine revolution and war. My thesis is as follows: Fueled by the writings of a national hero by the name of Jose Rizal; The Filipino independence movement successfully overthrew the Spanish with the help of the U.S. but America turned on the Filipinos and were out gunned and out manned do to the fact the Filipinos throughout the Archipelago could not banned together well enough.

I would like to hear your take on the move towards independance and the war. And if you believe the war helped unify the archipeligo and if you beleive that the Philippines is a well unified nation today or not.
All opinions would be appreciated. Thank You!

(as a side note i am not Filipino or asian for that matter. i am white. I do however enjoy learning about Filipino culture and was introduced to it because i take Inayan Eskrima as a martial art.)

I think the spaniards were the ones who unified the philippines and the name philippines itself was named after king philip II. luzon visayas and mindanao was united more than 300 years under the spanish rule.

if the revolution took place without the help of the americans, the philippines might be divided into three countries namely luzon, visayas and mindanao because their culture and people were really different. the americans bought the philippines from the spaniards that is why the philippines is still intact.

I think the philippines martial arts Eskrima is also Arnis and Kali.

Sunfatsi was always a regionalized state; with warring princely states that prevented total unification. It was only with Spanish arrival that the region was unified. Good poits Mart.

inayan escrima?

does that mean mother? ina?

and what is sunfatsi?

Thanks for the replies. I think perhaps i should have worded my quiestion diffrently.

Do you feel the Philippines has a sense of national identity (now)?

Do you think that the Philippine revolution against the Spanish gave filipinos more of a sense of national identity?

How much do you think Jose Rizals writings influenced the revolutionary movement and what it means to be Filipino?

Do you think that The Katipunan(rebel movement) would have had greater success had there not been so many animosities between people of different regions in the Philippines?9based on my readings i think yes)

It is called Inayan Eskrima because it was founded by mangisursuro Mike Inay.

I think the writings of Rizal greatly influenced the philippine revolution because he had a lot of followers including Andres Bonifacio the leader of the KKK (Kataastaasan Kagalanggalangan ng Katipunan). his writings were distributed in luzon region but im not sure if it was also distributed in visayas and mindanao.

I think the philippines had an identity when the revolution took place because the filipinos realized that they can be independent and the philippines belongs to the filipinos not by other countries like spain or the united states.

True. but i think it's interesting how Rizal never wanted a revolution he just wanted reforms. The katipunans even asked him to join and he wouldn't.

True. but i think it's interesting how Rizal never wanted a revolution he just wanted reforms. The katipunans even asked him to join and he wouldn't.

Rizal had only wished that the Filipinas must have a direct representative in the Spanish Cortes and not under the subordination of the Viscount of Mexico. All the other Philippines heroes wants independence through revolution.

Sulu was never completely conquered by Spanish, the Sultan only gave up it's sovereignty in 1915 to the Americans by signing the Carpenter's Agreement....only in the Maguindanao/ Lanao area who is under the Spanish rule before 1898.

Jose Rizal & the "La Solidaridad" agenda:

-That the Philippines be a province of Spain

-Representation in the Cortes (Parliament)

-Filipino priests rather than the Spanish Augustinians, Dominicans, or Franciscans

-Freedom of assembly and speech

-Equal rights before the law (for both Filipino and Spanish plaintiffs)



Staff of La Solidaridad in Barcelona, Spain, José Rizal, Marcelo H. del Pilar, Mariano Ponce

Rizal & the Propaganda Movement

http://countrystudies.us/philippines/10.htm

Do you feel the Philippines has a sense of national identity (now)?

Of course yes, unfortunately some ignorant louts who grew up in another country think its not and accepts it as a fact.

Do you think that the Philippine revolution against the Spanish gave filipinos more of a sense of national identity?

Actually, its the Hispanic culture that gave Filipinos from different regions realize a sense of commonality and unity. Eventually it became the national sense of identity.

How much do you think Jose Rizals writings influenced the revolutionary movement and what it means to be Filipino?

It was the major influence, the firestarter..Bonifacio, the founder of Katipunan loved Rizal's book so much because it truly mirrored the Filipino situation under the Autocratic regime. Rizal's book inspired the Supremo (Bonifacio) to wage a revolution againts Spain.

Do you think that The Katipunan(rebel movement) would have had greater success had there not been so many animosities between people of different regions in the Philippines?

First of all, the Katipunan's war againts Spain was victorious,. so what failure are you talking about? However, just after the Philippines gained independence from Spain, Americans took over the country with the guise of an "ally", when in fact, they were colonizing the country behind Aguinaldo's back.

No, the Katipuneros were not victorious against the Spanish.....in fact it was to the Americans that the Spanish surrendered.

Actually Filipinos never won any war against any of it's colonizers. (Spanish, British, Americans & Japanese)

but filipinos were beating the spaniards, right?

Winning some battles but not the war......it was the Americans who destroyed the Spanish fleet and some fortification around Manila

thats because your a stupid @$$hole! The Philippines won the Spanish-Filipino war ..stooopeeeedd dalawapo!!

I feel sorry for your ignorance......if you disagree with me then teach me how the Katipuneros have won the war.

dude!! the filipinos were winning the war against the spaniards so much that the spaniards were holed up in manila completely surrounded by filipinos

how cunning of the americans to attack the spanish fleet while the filipinos did the brunt of the work

the only reason the spanish surrendered to the americans is because they had a secret agreement with the americans that they will surrender to them and not filipinos simply due to the fact that americans were white unlike filipinos who were nothing stupid brown monkies

the spaniards thought that by surrendering to white people and not to stupid brown monkies they could uphold the honor of their military

thats your problem if you feel sorry for my "ignorance"..i know my history, what about u? from another US-sponsored History textbook?


idiot, the US like taking credit for that, but i have to tell you that even before the "Treaty of Paris"-->(the treaty that bought the Philippines, Puerto Rico and Hawaii by US for $20 millio dollars and in return-US should defeat Spain with honor..Spain during that time was the world power so a coloized people wining the war againt a superpower is an embarrassment to the world.) Aguinaldo already declared independence in the Philippines, which is why the Philippines is celebrating its independence from 1898...In short, the idea that Spain lost the war from the Americans is nothing but a"show"! Its just so happens that the invading Americans came to Manila at a time when the Spanish-Filipino war for independence was ongoing and the Spanish forces were bottled up in Manila, facing an imminent defeat....

As I have told you they are winning some battle but not the war......you see the difference ?

The filipinos only proclaimed independence in 1898 but never achieved it until 1946. How could you proclaim victory in 1898 when you never assumed sovereignty, there was no central authority at that time that commands the Filipino revolutionaries (Aguinaldo and Bonifacio is on dispute).... The Americans only first attacked the Spanish fleet because of the dispute in Cuba, after the fall of the Spanish Navy it was months until the the U.S. troops landed in Manila because the Spanish forces are still in their fortifications along the beachfront stretches from Cavite to Intramuros (what was the beachfront is today the Roxas Boulevard).

Whatever info you have written I think is innacurate, unles you state your reference.

Ahhh...it always fascinates me if somebody becomes an instant expert in Philippine History.. I am only a Knight of Rizal 1st degree based in the International Headquarters in Intramuros who always take a peek at the National Historical Institute for a weather forecast. I don't need books ! perhaps it's you who should get a refund on the garbage that you're reading.

filipinos were winning the war against spanish and not just "some battle"

filipinos did not the win the war because the spanish wanted to surrender to the americans as soon as possible to avoid humiliation

I won't argue about the whole independence thing because you are right about that

Before everything gets out of hand here......it is undoubtedly we are as Patriotic as anyone else here, being a fellow Filipinos. But this topic has been in parallel or somewhat related to my research years ago and the unfinished work of Ambet Ocampo, a fellow Rizalian and Chairman of the National Historical Institute. We are both writing unpublished articles about the German Imperial Navy involvement in the Battle of Manila Bay in 1898....what really happened between George Dewey and von Deidrich. The battle of Manila bay is the determining factor of the future of the Philippine and the continued struggle of the Filipinos which later become the Filipino-American war.

I must say that I have never heard of the knights of rizal. exactly what is that order's purpose?

I hope I don't offend you but I think in my opinion jose rizal should not be the national hero. I mean I think he is a great guy and still a hero of the philippines.

oh and do you think the new pic on my sig is too big?

In 1898, Andres Bonifacio is no longer exist. He was executed by firing squad under the order of Emilio Aguinaldo in Mount Buntis a year earlier. So, Bonifacio and Aguinaldo were no longer in dispute on who's gonna lead the revolution. After Bonifacio's execution, Aguinaldo took over as the sole overall leader of the revolution. However, because of Aguinaldo's stupidity, the revolution came to a halt because Aguinaldo made a pact with the Spanish. This is probably the biggest mistake on his side, the Spanish military at that time is becoming weaker, so that's why they decided to negotiate with Aguinaldo and offered him large sum of money which Aguinaldo accepted it. This is now known as the "Pact of Biak-na-Bato."

In 1898, when most of the Philippines are in the hands of the revolutionaries, Aguinaldo declared the Philippine Independence, and proclaimed himself as a dictator, but later change the dictator government to revolutionary government until Jan 1899, when it became as the First Philippine Republic. At the Malolos Congress, Aguinaldo was proclaimed as the president.



Spain and United States were never in dispute over Cuba. However, the U.S. was secretly helping the Cuban revolutionaries. United States only declared war against Spain when the American battleship, USS Maine, was sunk in Havanna Harbor. Their slogan, "Remember Maine, The Hell With Spain."




Before the battle, the Spain secretly negotiated with the United States because they don't want to lose face. So, instead of surrendering to the "indios" they'd rather save their dignity than being humiliated. They were already humiliated when they lost their empire in the Americas.

It's true that the Americans waited months before they came ashore in Manila, but that's because they don't have enough soldiers. The Filipinos, on the other hand, had already surrounded Manila and want to attack the city, but the Americans warned them not to attack Manila. When the American reinforcement arrived, they attacked the Spanish and then after a few hours of fighting, the Spanish raised a white flag as a signal of surrendering. The Filipinos, who have been patient but keen to attack Manila, were left out.

The Battle of Manila Bay or better known as "The Mock Battle of Manila Bay," is like in boxing where the promoters and mangers of both camps already know who's going to win the fight. Only the audiences are the ones who don't know about it, yet. In this case, the Filipinos are the audiences, while the U.S. and Spain are both the managers and promoters.

Sunfatsi was the term the Ming and the Qing dynasties placed on the Philippines. Considering China at the time period of pre hispania had cultural and political supremacy of south east asia, their naming of your country has some kind of weight, considering the country was not united to make a national name.

Some battles??? the Spanish were finished in the Phillippines, they had been kicked out and humiliated in every province. With the exception of Intramuros they were already pretty much defeated.

Americans were a lot worse than the Spaniards. Do you guys even know what happen during the american occupation.


American Policy during that time were to:

"to kill as many Filipinos as possible"

But I will hazard a guess. Our policy in the Philippines was genocide. We were not, there to liberate or even defend a "liberty-loving" people; we were there to acquire those rich islands and if we had to kill the entire population we would have done so. Just as we had killed the Indians in the century before (some of our best troops in the Philippines were former Indian fighters) and as we would kill Southeast Asians later in this century. To deny that our policy was genocidal in these three instances is to make a fool of history on the order of that recent scholar who said that no holocaust took place because six million Jews were not killed. When pressed on this, he said that he had proof that only 5.2 million Jews had been killed; presumably, this is just under the holocaust level.


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/6787



Mark Twain:

"entrance fee into society--the Society of Scepter Thieves." "We do not intend to free but to subjugate the people of the Philippines," he wrote. "We have pacified some thousands of the islanders and buried them, destroyed their fields, burned their villages, and turned their widows and orphans out of doors."


They even design the "COLT .45 HANDGUN MODEL 1911 TO KILL FILIPINOS OR INDIOS"

1.4 million filipinos or indios murdered.

General Douglas MacArthur- " inferior race"

Yea the Spaniards are protrayed as Villains because many Filipinos are brainwashed.

Datu Mandub change your name to "Monkey Servant of the US Propaganda Machine".
You actually believe it was the US who did all the fighting against the Spanish, hilarious.

whoa general macarthur said that?!

can you show me link or something? it's not that I don't trust you it just because my father speaks very highly of him as if he was some sort perfect, shining knight hero to the philippines. now I can throw that to his face

"I shall return"

You should read more on the FIL-AM WAR(BOOK). There is an editorial cartoon saying "ages over 9 must be killed"

Thanks for all the replies.

Here is a quote from the book The Philippine war 1899-1902 by brian McAllister Linn "The katipuneros were able to sieze control of most of the Tagalog area south of Manila. But they could not consolidate their gains ; personal and regional animosities were so great that participants drew knives and revolvers at councils of war. At a conference on 22 March 1897, a faction from Cavite province replaced Bonifacio with one of thier own, Emilio Aguinaldo y Famy. The deposed supremo was quickly arrested, tried and executed by Aguinaldo's supporters........Having frittered away their temporary success on internal squables, the Katipuneros were ill prepared to meet the counter offensive"

it is a long book so i have not yet read the whole thing but if anyone has any information the katipuneros inability to unite due to regional and socail anomosities this would be very very much appreciated. I need evidence to support the statement that because of these animosities The Katipunero were unable to fight off the U.S.

In one part of the book it talks about how the Moro people fought seperate from the Katipuneros is this because of the animosities between the Moro people and Christian Filipinos?

Do you beleive the Filipinos had a hard time pulling together to fight off America in part because of a lack of national identity?

Thanks all for the replies! I hope i don't seem to much like a broken record. i just need more opinions and facts and info.

^^wow aguinaldo is a bastard

seems like he'd be a perfect politician in modern philippines

EJI, thank you for taking the trouble to respond......I am a Datu in the Royal Hashemite Sultanate of Sulu, I hold a rank of Chief Herald of the Royal Family that was descended from Sultan Esmail I (1947-1973), meaning I am one of the keepers of Tarsila. I think I have more reason to despised the Americans after what they have did to the Tausog.

Obviously my point is who holds the power of the sea in the Battle of Manila Bay holds the future of the Philippines.

I know there are several websites regarding KR that might be helpful.

here I copy paste some:

To study the teachings of Dr. Jose Rizal;
To inculcate and propagate them among all classes of the Filipino people, and by words and deeds to exhort our citizenry to emulate and practice the examples and teachings of our national hero;
To promote among the associated Knights the spirit of patriotism and Rizalian chivalry;
To develop a perfect union among the Filipinos in revering the memory of Dr. Jose P. Rizal; and
To organize and hold programs commemorative of Rizal's nativity and martyrdom.


The Knights of Rizal was established under Republic Act 646. meaning it is protected by law and holds recognition from other state.

Admittedly some say that Rizal was a U.S. sponsored hero....but in my opinion he was the greatest man the Malay race has ever produced.

I did not apply to join the KR but I was recommended to join non the less by the KR Wilhelmsfeld Chapter, Germany. Wilhelmsfeld is borrough where Rizal stayed while studying at the Heidelberg University.

Glad that you are interested in the subject. But here's what I know and mind that you take some of what people say in here with a grain of salt.

First off, the Americans hardly did the fighting against the Spanish. the Americans promised Aguinaldo, which is testified by Hongkong's british consulate who translated for him with Dewey or one of the American ambassador, however Aguinaldo was just used as a pawn (this is after they destroyed the armada off manial bay). When the Spanish garrison were about to fall from Filipino siege, the Spanish held off the Fiipinos and made a quick settlment with Americans for several millions of dollars all of Philippines.

Second, i think i do agree but not really when your thesis said that pinoys did not succeed because of lack of nationality. first is yes nationalism, as it was anywhere int he world, only started as a solid idea during the late 1800's. the problem with it is that most Filipinos before and after the revoultion were only Filipinos because of the Spanish control. so yes i agree that lack of national belonging was there.

but my problem with that is the fact that "nationality" in the filipino ideals before hand was really not natural anyway. because before spain there was no filipinos. there was no oneness. even tribes weren't unified, since filipino socities existed mostly in the barangay and barangay confederacy mostly before the foreigners arrived. some did have more elaborate govt. but even those weren't as complicated even. thus even nations (mostly then identified with what language they spoke) didn't mean that it was organized.

so many would say, it is because they can't put their shoes together is true, in many accounts. but the fact that they never had a shoe to begin with is kinda weird. and the weirdest part of that is Filipino was Spanish. meaning it's a created identity, yet the very same thing that held them were the ones they're trying to fight off, which to me was very intriguing.

and also, much like it was in the American revolution, many of the subjects also were loyal to Spain. and that some families were like the Whigs, some were moderates like Rizal.

you are right Rizal didn't want outright independence or at least radical change. i thought it was because rizal was more educated than many and saw that quick independence from spain will result like what happen in many former spanish colonies ie Mexico and also like in the revoultion in France (which in fact was what moved bonifacio to rebel), a tragedy anarachy and possible oligarchy of big landowners/hacienderos. also i've read that Rizal didn't believe that filipnos would not be organized enough (he wasn't wrong) and believed that it would become just another blight both to the citizens and to revolutionaries (more killing, more destruction, and animosities). but as we know, at least Rizal believed in what he thought was right until the end. he showed his bravery and his gentlemanness without even lifting a sword.

Well thank you for the history lesson.......I must have sparked some quick research on the members.

[quote=oanari,Jan 4 2006, 07:11 AM]
In 1898, Andres Bonifacio is no longer exist. He was executed by firing squad under the order of Emilio Aguinaldo in Mount Buntis a year earlier. So, Bonifacio and Aguinaldo were no longer in dispute on who's gonna lead the revolution. After Bonifacio's execution, Aguinaldo took over as the sole overall leader of the revolution. However, because of Aguinaldo's stupidity, the revolution came to a halt because Aguinaldo made a pact with the Spanish. This is probably the biggest mistake on his side, the Spanish military at that time is becoming weaker, so that's why they decided to negotiate with Aguinaldo and offered him large sum of money which Aguinaldo accepted it. This is now known as the "Pact of Biak-na-Bato."

Ever heard that Bonifacio still had some loyal troops ? as I have said the revolutionaries cannot claim a complete victory because there was no central authority.

In 1898, when most of the Philippines are in the hands of the revolutionaries, Aguinaldo declared the Philippine Independence, and proclaimed himself as a dictator, but later change the dictator government to revolutionary government until Jan 1899, when it became as the First Philippine Republic. At the Malolos Congress, Aguinaldo was proclaimed as the president.



Spain and United States were never in dispute over Cuba. However, the U.S. was secretly helping the Cuban revolutionaries. United States only declared war against Spain when the American battleship, USS Maine, was sunk in Havanna Harbor. Their slogan, "Remember Maine, The Hell With Spain."
Before the battle, the Spain secretly negotiated with the United States because they don't want to lose face. So, instead of surrendering to the "indios" they'd rather save their dignity than being humiliated. They were already humiliated when they lost their empire in the Americas.

The U.S. has it's eyes on Cuba before Maine.

It's true that the Americans waited months before they came ashore in Manila, but that's because they don't have enough soldiers. The Filipinos, on the other hand, had already surrounded Manila and want to attack the city, but the Americans warned them not to attack Manila. When the American reinforcement arrived, they attacked the Spanish and then after a few hours of fighting, the Spanish raised a white flag as a signal of surrendering. The Filipinos, who have been patient but keen to attack Manila, were left out.

The revolutionaries cannot achieve notable success even on Aguinaldo's growing influence, they want to topple the Spanish government but their final intentions of the American is unknown......in the end they have to give in to the Americans because to their lack of means and organization

American ground forces (from Guam) consisting 2,700 men, landed in Manila on July 1 1898


Anyway.....my conclusion. The scramble for the Philippines that took place in 1898, when the Spanish colonialism was in it's death, the Americans won the war through the treaty of Paris.

On June 12, 1898 the Philippine Independence was proclaimed by Gen. Aguinaldo but eleven days later Aguinaldo's government was changed to revolutionary.... why ? because even after the battle of Manila bay that ended that on May 1, the Spanish Governor General is still at Malacañang Palace receiving foreign visitors and diplomats as such.

hahahaha, how embarassing..it always fascinates me that a man who claims to be a member of----> Knights of Rizal slash National Historical Institute for a....weather forecast!?!?!? bwahahahaha..assumes he knows-it-all and do not need books..Idiot, unless you lived during 1898 in intramuros then i would seriously believe you wouldnt need it..the war between Spaniards and Filipinos is a legal war and not just a battle since they have defeated the Spanish seat of power/outpost in the Philippines which was Intramuros..This is the only war that the Filipinos won, (however, the Filipino-American war is a different story)...

I think it was his father who said that cuz his father was stationed in the philippines 1900's.... the reason why General Mcarthur("i shall return") grew up in the philippines.

Congratulations for successfully informing us all how sick you are......you are now excused on all of your future stupidity. I have seen no evidence that you can handle a mature discussion.

Oh.....Intramuros is not the seat of power in the Philippines. now go and find out why !

Im cheering for Datu Mandub!

No, you just cant handle the fact that just because you think you are a member of the Fairies, i mean, Knights of Rizal, you actually still need books to get your facts straight. LOLz! Btw, i happen to read your "historical explanation" about the origin of the word "MALACAÑANG" in a thread of this forum somewhere and im sorry to inform you that now you are a member of the Hobbits of i mean, Knights of Rizal, doesnt give you the infinite knowledge of Philippine History books. Malacañang actually came from the tagalog sentence, "May Lakan Dyan" which is actually a short answer for "May Lakandulang Nakatira Diyan." NOT "May MAHARLIKANG nakatira dyan."..use the first phrase in heavy Spanish accent and you'll get Malacañan. In short, you need books real baaadd right now, your membership of the Orcs of Rizal is dumbing you!!



Oh yeah? and what is the seat of power back then, your hometown in Jolo, Sulu? Mwahahahaa! Oh and btw, the whole of Maynilad back then is what is now the small enclave of Intramuros today.

EXCERPT:
"Spanish Rule
In 1565, Spanish conquistadors led by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi began to set foot on Maynilad. Legaspi and his men waged clashes with the natives before they were able to finally establish themselves in the area and have a peace agreement with the local leaders, who, in turn, turned over Maynilad to the Spanish. Citing the strategic economic, political and military importance of Manila, Legaspi promptly declared Manila as the capital of the then new Spanish colony of the Philippines on June 24, 1571. The King of Spain, delighted at the new conquest done by Legaspi and his men, awarded Manila a coat of arms and declared it Insigne y Siempre Leal Ciudad ("Distinguished and ever loyal city"). Planning in the City of Manila was first manifested in the Spanish period plan for Intramuros, which was based on King Philip II's Royal Ordinance issued on July 3, 1573 in San Lorenzo, Spain.

Intramuros served as the center of political, military and religious power of the Spaniards during the time that the Philippines was a colony of Spain."

mulawin are u a last remenant of spanish surviving in the philippines and your white skin? is it scarey to be surrounded by brown people and always have to be reclusive from the asian tropical sun that birth tan color to its subjects?

Hehehehe, the forum loser is delighted! I guess this is already the happiest of the happiest moment of his $hitty life..congratz to you, i bet this is even better than your gay-porn collection, eh? ...

indeed it is a monumentous occasion that lifft my spirit thata spanish guy in the philippines has been humilated

hahahaha, of course...being into Malay fetish that you are, i bet you cum a whole lot reading his reply didnt you? nyehehehe, its good that you finally have the the most pleasurable orgasm in your sexually-frustrated life...Lolzz!

Theres an Earthquake that demolishes Palacio de Gobernador in Intramuros & so they move the Spanish governor-general office & residence from Intramuros to Pasig Malacanang

Also the American Governors General planned to reconstruct the old Palacio at Intramuros, but the plan was later abandoned. Instead, they continued to improve and enlarge Malacanang, buying up more land, reclaiming more of the Pasig River, raising the ground level (to keep above flood waters), changing wood to concrete, and beautifying the interiors with hardwood paneling and magnificent chandeliers.

Thanks again for all the replies.

Im sorry that it has now turned into an unfriendly debate.

mulawin why are u such a spanish symphazier? u know u would be under them instead of as a revolutionary mentality where u are under no one but yourself. ur oppressing yourself gleefuly!

Thats because your a white american @ss-kisser like your Chamorro people.