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prahok
does anybody know any facts about him.. i also want to know if he was a thai puppet..thanks
NumIsan
In no way was King Sethathirath a thai puppet.

When the the Burmese captured all the surrounding kingdoms their kings all bowed down to the King of Kings of Hongsa(Burmese kingdom). But not King Sethathirath. He continued to say he was the King. He later kicked the Burmese out of his Kingdom.

He was king of both Lanxang and Lanna.
prahok
i see.. do you have any links where i can read about him? he was very aggressive towards cambodia.. he invaded and tried to conquer cambodia twice.. i thought he was a thai puppet cuz he tried to conquer cambodia and after his death..the thai army invaded cambodia in retaliation and pillaged udong..
NumIsan
I'm sorry. No links. i just wrote off the top of my head. Haha I didn't know he tried to conquer the Cambodia TWICE! Man, the Khmers just never got a break. I feel for you guys. Haha
prahok
haha..but he failed twice miserably.. this was at a time cambodia was really weak..setthathirat was killed during the 2nd invasion of cambodia.. most of his men were slaughtered and drowned in the mekong river..

i didnt even know cambodia had a war with laos back then.. the territories laos gained earlier was due to the help of the khmer army.. lan xang and angkor had good relations until the reign of king setthathirat..

QUOTE
War with Larncharng

It was at this moment that Cambodia's attention was turned for some time towards Larncharng (Laos), when King Setthatirat launched two attacks against Cambodia.

King Setthatirat son-in-law of King Mah Chakrapat by marriage with Princess Tepkasatri, daugther of the famous Queen Suriyotai who died in 1555 helping her husband fight the Burmese, sent an elephant of enormous size with two ambassadors and 1000 men to Cambodia, challenging Borom Reachea to find an elephant to fight his. The defeat would mean that Cambodia would have to acknowledge Lao suzerainty. He was so sure of victory since there could be no elephant that size ever to be found again. The Cambodian elephant was two cubics shorter, but it did put the Lao elephant to fight. Borom Reachea kept both elephants and the 1000 Lao escorters as slaves and sent back the two mandarins alone to announce his victory. Setthatirat could not lose face. He at once invaded Cambodia by land and boat. 50,000 of his men descended the Mekong River and 70,000 men by land in 1570. The first army met Sattha, Borom Reachea's son, at Srey Santhor and was defeated. The second army was met by the King in person at Phnom Sonthok and was routed. King Setthatirat was not baffled by this. He invaded Cambodia again in 1573 with 20,000 men and met the Cambodians north of Phnom Penh. This time Setthatirat lost his life, and most of his men heavily butchered or drowned in the river.
Sipsongpana
First time 120,000 men and second time only 20,000? What was he thinking? LOL

I'm wondering whether he messed around with Dai Viet during this time.
Me_Myself_And_I
King Setthathirat was probably an ally of Ayutthaya. I think this was a time when Lan Xang and Siam were still good friends. The bad blood between two countries started with the whole Chao Anou/ Rama III era...
prahok
i want to read the war lan xang had with hongsa..the burmese kingdom..
prahok
i found this.. funny, in this link it said he disappeared haha.. not the same as the khmer account..
QUOTE
Briefly in the mid-16th century, the kingdom of Lan Na, centered on Chiang Mai in northern Thailand, was absorbed into Lan Xang. But the Lan Xang king at the time, Xetthathirat, was renowned more for his valiant defiance of the Burmese than for ruling Lan Na. Twice during Xetthathirat’s reign, Burmese armies ravaged Lan Xang, and twice they were driven from Lao soil. Xetthathirat moved the Lao capital south to Vientiane, a site more defensible than Louangphrabang and more central, for by this time Lao settlers had migrated into southern Laos (Champasak) and across the Khorat Plateau into what is now northeastern Thailand. Xetthathirat beautified his capital by building the great That Luang stupa and a temple to house his own favorite Buddha image, the Emerald Buddha. At the height of his power, however, Xetthathirat went too far in his military ambitions. He invaded Cambodia and disappeared when his army was routed. In the ensuing anarchy, Laos fell to the Burmese.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761551958_8/Laos.html

why do some sources say setthathirat disappeared after he invaded cambodia and not killed? did he really just disappeared??
QUOTE
In 1571 King Setthathirat disappeared when coming back after his invasion into Cambodia. Lan Xang delined rapidly without a leader, the kingdom was attacked constantly by the Burmese.

http://paradissa.com/laos/history.htm

found this also..i guess he was an ally of ayutthaya..
QUOTE
Setthathirat married a princess from Ayutthaya (Thailand) and formed a political alliance with the Thai against their common enemy, Burma. During a Burmese invasion in about 1565, Setthathirat's military strategy preserved the autonomy of his kingdom. Still regarded by the Lao as a national hero, Setthathirat is a central figure in the spiritual cult of some mountain peoples in southern Laos.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9066923
prahok
something isnt right.. a lot of sources say he died in 1571.. but from a khmer account, it said he invaded cambodia again in 1573 and was killed.. i think from the lao account, they didnt know he invaded cambodia twice.. maybe thats why he came back with only 20,000 men.. confused.gif or maybe khmer people bust some black magic on him confused.gif confused.gif
Sirikittong
Hmmm...yes it was a sad loss to have his armies routed by the khambujian army. The general of the khmer kingdom must have been an able military man to have sustained such blows, yet survived the lan xang onslaught. However, not strong enough to survive the army of Ayudhaya, which conquored Khambujia completely. sure.gif
Vince
QUOTE (prahok @ Jan 5 2006, 11:44 PM)
King Setthatirat son-in-law of King Mah Chakrapat by marriage with Princess Tepkasatri, daugther of the famous Queen Suriyotai who died in 1555 helping her husband fight the Burmese


I don't think King Setthatirat ever got to marry Queen Suriyotai's daughter. The marriage was prevented by Phisanulok's governer who sided with the Burmese. If you watch the movie "Suriyothai" you might get some hints that Phisanulok's governor (Maha Thammaracha) won't stay loyal to Ayutthaya after the queen's death.

However, Lan Xang and Ayutthaya did try to ally against the Burmese agression in the mid 15th century. But it wasn't so successful. Eventually both kingdoms fell to the Burmese (and so did Mon Hongsawadi, Shan states, and Lanna).
Viesnabotkampujia
QUOTE (Sirikittong @ Jan 6 2006, 08:52 AM)
Hmmm...yes it was a sad loss to have his armies routed by the khambujian army. The general of the khmer kingdom must have been an able military man to have sustained such blows, yet survived the lan xang onslaught. However, not strong enough to survive the army of Ayudhaya, which conquored Khambujia completely. sure.gif
*



icon_rolleyes.gif eye! This one! your talking is as fat as your physical figure. I wondered if your $hit is as big as an elephant $hit.
Sipsongpana
Hongsawadi was the ruler of the Mons?
Vince
QUOTE (Sipsongpana @ Jan 6 2006, 01:42 PM)
Hongsawadi was the ruler of the Mons?
*


Hongsawadi (or Hamsavati in Pali) was a Mon capital in lower Burma. It was the center of Mon civilization until the Burmese conquered it in mid 15th century and made it capital of their kingdom.

The Mon revolted in 18th centery and was free for a couple of years until the Burmese burnt down the whole city into ashes.

A new city was rebuilt some time later. Today it's known as Pegu (or Bago).
Sipsongpana
I watched the Legend of Suriyothai; so the guy who invaded Ayuthaya was a Mon ruler? Hmmm
prahok
QUOTE (Sipsongpana @ Jan 6 2006, 02:15 PM)
I watched the Legend of Suriyothai; so the guy who invaded Ayuthaya was a Mon ruler? Hmmm
*

are you slow? he said the burmese conquered the mon capital in the 15th century.. so it was a burmese ruler that invaded ayuthaya not the mon..
Sipsongpana
Then who invaded Ayuthaya in the late 16th century?
prahok
QUOTE (Vince @ Jan 6 2006, 09:56 AM)
I don't think King Setthatirat ever got to marry Queen Suriyotai's daughter. The marriage was prevented by Phisanulok's governer who sided with the Burmese. If you watch the movie "Suriyothai" you might get some hints that Phisanulok's governor (Maha Thammaracha) won't stay loyal to Ayutthaya after the queen's death.

However, Lan Xang and Ayutthaya did try to ally against the Burmese agression in the mid 15th century. But it wasn't so successful. Eventually both kingdoms fell to the Burmese (and so did Mon Hongsawadi, Shan states, and Lanna).
*

are you sure? in another source, it said he did.. maybe the movie Suriyothai isnt as accurate as the stuff written down in books..
QUOTE
Setthathirat married a princess from Ayutthaya (Thailand) and formed a political alliance with the Thai against their common enemy, Burma. During a Burmese invasion in about 1565, Setthathirat's military strategy preserved the autonomy of his kingdom. Still regarded by the Lao as a national hero, Setthathirat is a central figure in the spiritual cult of some mountain peoples in southern Laos.
NumIsan
QUOTE (Viesnabotkampujia @ Jan 6 2006, 08:25 AM)
icon_rolleyes.gif eye! This one! your talking is as fat as your physical figure. I wondered if your $hit is as big as an elephant $hit.
*


LMAO
Vince
QUOTE (prahok @ Jan 6 2006, 02:34 PM)
are you sure? in another source, it said he did.. maybe the movie Suriyothai isnt as accurate as the stuff written down in books..


He didn't get to marry Queen Suriyotai's daughter. He tried but it wasn't successful. Here's some timeline regarding the 1550 to 1600.

"Suriyothai movie"
- Burmese King Tabinshwehti of Tongoo captured Mon capital of Hamsavati.
- King Tabinshwehti moved his capital to Hamsavati and launched attacks from there to the East. His army is comprised of Burmese, Mon, and other ethnic people.
- King Maha Chakkapat of Ayutthaya fended off the Burmese but lost his wife Queen Suriyothai in an elephant battle.
- Maha Thammracha was appointed to be Phisanulok's governer (second-most important Siamese city after Ayutthaya) and was married to one of King Maha Chakkapat's and Queen Suriyothai's daughters.

After "Suriyothai movie"
- King Bayinnaung succeeded King Tabinshwehti. He would become one of the greatest warrior kings of Southeast Asia.
- Queen Suriyothai's bloodline became highly prized because of her heroic death.
- King Setthatirat of Lan Xang requested to marry a daughter of King Maha Chakkapat and Queen Suriyothai.
- King Maha Chakkapat sent Lan Xang a princess but she wasn't queen Suriyothai's daughter. So King Setthatirat sent her back and requested Suriyothai's daughter again.
- Ayutthaya sent Lan Xang one of Suriyothai's daughters. But Maha Thammaracha of Phisanulok switched side to join the Burmese and was able to prevent the princess to go to Lan Xang. So King Setthatirat NEVER got to marry Queen Suriyothai's daughter.

The Fall of Siam and Lan Xang
- Ayutthaya fell to the Burmese. Maha Thammaracha was appointed by the Burmese to be the King of Siam. But his son, Naresuan, was sent to Hamsavati as a captive. Nevertheless Naresuan would later reclaim Ayutthaya's dependence.
- After losing its ally, Lan Xang also fell to the Burmese. I'm not sure about King Setthatirat though. He probably fled to somewhere else and died there. Lan Xang regained independence from the Burmese in 1583

How Cambodia got involved with this Burma-Mon-Siam-Lanna-LanXang mess
- Cambodian King Sattha sent troops to support prince Naresuan (soon to be king) to fight off the Burmese in Chiang Mai. King Sattha would broke off the alliance with and invaded Siam when King Naresuan was still busy fighting the Burmese.
- After King Naresuan successfully pushed the Burmese back to Burma, he took revenge on King Sattha by invading Khmer capital of Lovek. Lovek fell to Ayutthaya in 1594
- King Sattha fled to Luang Prabang and died there in about 1596 (but some records said he was captured and executed by King Naresuan).
- The Spanish (yes, the Spanish, and they were sent from Manila !!! ) installed one of Sattha's son as King of Cambodia but he wasn't so popular. Eventually Sattha's brother, backed by Ayutthaya, became the King of Cambodia.
- The Khmer will later move their capital from Lovek to Udong and that will get them involved with a new and increasingly powerful neighbor - Vietnam.


whew.. this is long.

Anyway, King Setthatirat is a very interesting character. He did three signicant things.
1. When he addicated the Lanna throne to become a Lan Xang king he also moved the Emerald Buddha with him from Chiang Mai to Luang Prabang
2. He moved Lang Xang capital from Luang Prabang to Vientiane and again moved the Emerald Buddha with him to his new capital
3. He built That Luang pagoda in Vientiane which today has become the national symbol of Laos. This is probably the main reason why he's regarded so highly in Laos today.

biggthumpup.gif biggthumpup.gif biggthumpup.gif
prahok
very interesting.. thanks for taking your time to write all that stuff down vince.. biggthumpup.gif beerchug.gif
Point_Dexter
^ Never seen the movie, Now i gotta see it
Vince
QUOTE (Vince @ Jan 7 2006, 12:51 AM)
The Fall of Siam and Lan Xang
- After losing its ally, Lan Xang also fell to the Burmese. I'm not sure about King Setthatirat though. He probably fled to somewhere else and died there. Lan Xang regained independence from the Burmese in 1583


Ok, I think I found how King Setthatirat ended up after moving his capital from Luang Prabang to Vientiane. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia (but keep in mind that wikipedia information could sometimes be slightly inaccurate).

QUOTE
"In 1572, a conspiracy between a Lord Phya Nakhon and the former abbot of Wat Maximavat, who held personal grudges against Setthathirath, led to the king's murder in the southern frontier of the country. He was 38 years of age.

Because Setthathirath left only a toddler as his heir, the child's maternal grandfather, a military commander of common birth named Saensurin (or Sene Soulintha), declared himself king. This began a period of turbulence, with different men ruling unsteadily for short periods, which saw the country finally conquered by Bayinnaung (the Burmese would rule Laos for eighteen years)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setthathirath

Some more interesting facts -
Before Setthatirat became King of Lan Xang, he was already a king of another kingdom !!

Since Setthatirat also has Lanna royal bloodline (probably through his mother), he was selected by Chiang Mai nobles to become their king, which he accepted. However, some years later his father King Pothisarat of Luang Prabang died. Setthatirat decided to leave Chiang Mai and went to succeed his father as King of Lan Xang instead.

icon_wink.gif
Reagan
damn the thing is who knows if all this is true, and if its made up, nobody can prove it only articles and stories =/
VisitingAlien
QUOTE
(Sirikittong @ Jan 6 2006, 08:52 AM)
Hmmm...yes it was a sad loss to have his armies routed by the khambujian army. The general of the khmer kingdom must have been an able military man to have sustained such blows, yet survived the lan xang onslaught. However, not strong enough to survive the army of Ayudhaya, which conquored Khambujia completely.


Do you have a source to back it up? According to evidence, the army of Ayudhaya never conquored Cambodia completely at all. In fact, the Khmers even fought the Siems back in the day while enlisting the Viet help to counterbalance the Siems. I mean your statement is illogical because if the Siems already conquored the Khmers, then how come the Khmers continue to have their country and able to fight back the Siems. Please check your source. Below is my source from Cambodia: A Country Study

QUOTE
Cambodia's Struggle for Survival 1432-1887
(...)

Following the fall of Angkor Thom, the Cambodian court abandoned the region north of the Tonle Sap, never to return except for a brief interlude in the late sixteenth century. (…) During the sixteenth century Cambodian armies …invaded the Thai kingdom several times.

In the meantime, following the abandonment of the Angkorian sites, the Khmer established a new capital several hundred kilometers to the southeast on the site of what is now Phnom Penh. This new center of power was located at the confluence of the Mekong and the Tonle Sab rivers. Thus, it controlled the river commerce of the Khmer heartland and the Laotian kingdoms and had access, by way of the Mekong Delta, to the international trade routes that linked the China coast, the South China Sea, and the Indian Ocean. A new kind of state and society emerged, more open to the outside world and more dependent on commerce as a source of wealth than its inland predecessor. The growth of maritime trade with China during the Ming dynasty (1368-1644) provided lucrative opportunities for members of the Cambodian elite who controlled royal trading monopolies. The appearance of Europeans in the region in the sixteenth century also stimulated commerce.

King Ang Chan (1516-1566), one of the few great Khmer monarchs of the post-Angkorian period, moved the capital from Phnom Penh to Lovek. Portuguese and Spanish travelers who visited the city, located on the banks of the Tonle Sab, a river north of Phnom Penh, described it as a place of fabulous wealth. The products traded there included precious stones, metals, silk and cotton, incense, ivory, lacquer, livestock (including elephants), and rhinoceros horn (prized by the Chinese as a rare and potent medicine). By the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, Lovek contained flourishing foreign trading communities of Chinese, Indonesians, Malays, Japanese, Arabs, Spanish, and Portuguese. They were joined later in the century by the English and the Dutch.

The Thai, however, had dealt a fatal blow to Cambodian independence by capturing Lovek in 1594. With the posting of a Thai military governor in the city, a degree of foreign political control was established over the kingdom for the first time. The Thai capture of Lovek marked the beginning of a decline in Cambodia's fortunes.  A new Khmer capital was established at Odongk (Udong), south of Lovek.

In 1620 the Khmer king Chey Chettha II (1618-28) married a daughter of Nguyen Phuc Nguyen, one of the Nguyen lords (1558- 1778), who ruled southern Vietnam for most of the period of the restored Le dynasty (1428-1788).

There were periods in the seventeenth and the eighteenth centuries, when Cambodia's neighbors were preoccupied with internal or external strife.. The Vietnamese were involved in a lengthy civil war until 1674. Thailand…was itself involved in a new conflict with Burma. In 1767 the Thai capital of Ayutthaya was besieged and destroyed.  The Thais recovered.

A renewed struggle between Thailand and Vietnam for control of Cambodia [took place] in the nineteenth century.  Cambodians led several widespread rebellions against Vietnamese incursions.  After two years of fighting, Cambodia and its two neighbors reached an accord that placed the country under the joint suzerainty of Thailand and Vietnam. At the behest of both countries, a new monarch, Ang Duong (1848-59), ascended the throne and brought a decade of peace and relative independence to Cambodia.

Persuaded by a missionary envoy to seek French protection against both the Thai and the Vietnamese, King Ang Duong invited a French diplomatic mission to visit his court.  In August 1863, the French concluded a treaty with Ang Duong's successor, Norodom (1859-1904). This agreement afforded the Cambodian monarch French protection in exchange for giving the French rights to explore and to exploit the kingdom's mineral and forest resources. Although the Thai attempted to thwart the expansion of French influence, their own influence over the monarch steadily dwindled. In 1867 the French concluded a treaty with the Thai that gave the latter control of Batdambang Province and of Siemreab Province. Loss of the northwestern provinces deeply upset Norodom, but he was beholden to the French for sending military aid to suppress a rebellion by a royal pretender.

In June 1884, the French went to Phnom Penh, Norodom's capital, and demanded approval of a treaty with Paris that promised the establishment of French résidents in provincial cities. The king reluctantly signed the agreement. Local elites opposed the treaty and they fomented rebellions throughout the country during the following year. Though the rebellions were suppressed, and the treaty was ratified, passive resistance on the part of the Cambodians postponed implementation of the reforms it embodied until after Norodom's death.
YouStink
Siam never completely conquered Khmer Kingdom, for trespassing to the eastern half of Cambodia would be a challenge of Vietnamese protection of Cambodia. The Nguyen dynasty at times routed the Siamese invaders and went as far as kicking them out of Battambang on the western side. However, the natural sphere of influence has been Siam on the western half and Vietnam on the eastern half.
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