pure austronesians look allot like people in southern china

not really. "not a lot like" at all. The predominant population of Southern China nowadays consists of descendants of those who migrated from the north throughout history.

BishoujoHunter, are you and dalawapo related?

no,were not
i mean the thais,malays and southern chinese really do look alike allot

Do you know what southern Chinese look like?

yes,i met one in guangdong,china when we were in vacation in hongkong the tour guide she looks austronesian

the difference is between Levo and Deteuro Malays..... Pinoys are more of Levos.

read about the second wave of people that arrived after the aeta they look like southern chinese
http://members.asianavenue.com/APAT_NA_ALON/

I am Southern Chinese. I know Malaysians and we don't look a thing alike.

but proto austronesians look like southern chinese

Looks are a weak form of identification. Southern Chinese look like many different races. People say I look Korean or even Japanese when I am from Southern China. I have never seen natural Southern Hans have 'Malay' looking traits unless they directly have Malay blood in them from their parents.

Chinese never look like Malay. Dont joke.

Here is a picture of a pure malay

Based on my understanding however,
I would like to make some notes on the site presented by Bhunter:

1. Although, the wave theory has been discounted years ago, the author makes a fair description of the migrations; quite better than others who still claim accuracy of the "wave theory".

2. The Aetas (Negritos) and other pre-Austronesian populations ARE NOT a cross between Afro-Asiatic and Australasian groupings, I must make that clear. I don't know where the author got that idea! What a major time-slip that would've been!!! Sheesh!
The Aetas, before adopting Austronesian tongues, may have spoken Indo-Pacific languages, which was dominant in the Pacific and SE Asia before the arrival of the Austronesian mariners and other Austric groups from the mainland. As you go further away from Taiwan and the larger Malay archipelago, the less Austronesian, and the more Indo-Pacific the people are (whether by genetics of linguistics). It's like an Austronesian layer over an Indo-Pacific substrate; a mongoloid one over a melanoid one. Oceanians for example - they appear to have a split lineage: an Indo-Pacific mtDNA and an Austronesian Y-chromosome. The only surviving Indo-Pacific tongues spoken today are those of the hill tribes in Papua New Guinea, Tasmania and the Andamese Islands.
There is however a *known* hypothesis that they (Aeta Inc.) may have spoken an Austroasiatic related tongue (like the Semang and Sakai etc). But it is still unclear.

3. The so-called Malays are NOT of Mongol descent. Definitely NOT Altaic Mongol of Mongolia, neither mongol as in mongoliform. Most do however have many mongoloid traits (the so-called "Southern Chinese" look), but this is mainly through the flow of Sino-Tibetan peoples from the north to the south and NOT of direct descent as suggested by the author. Proto-Malays, or Levo-Malays are less "mongoliform" than the later Deutero-Malays.

Race, is now, mostly a sociological concept rather than a biological/genetic one.

That's all for now.

This Q.A. might help in our queries.
[quote]
> 1. In our elementary textbooks, they say that
> the first Austronesian-speaking Filipinos came from
> the Malay Peninsula sailing Borneo up to Palawan and
> into Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao. But doesn’t the
> the latest evidence suggest that they came from the
> Asian mainland via Taiwan and not via Malay
> peninsula.

Yes, it appears that they sailed south into the
Philippines first. The movement into the Malay
peninsula seems to have been part of the last
movement, moving from Sumatra into Peninsular Malaya.
This is why the Semang and the Senoi managed to
survive in interior Malaya.

> So, does that mean that the Malays (Western
> Austronesian-speakers right?) were here (in
> the Philippines) first before spreading to Borneo,
> Java or Sumatra.

The people who spread were Proto-Malays, who split
between Central Eastern and Western Groups. The
Western Group is found in Celebes and Borneo, moving
along the Island Chain from Bali, west and east. The
Central Eastern Goup is found in the Moluccas,
Halmahera and Western New Guinea (in the Bird's head
or Vogelkopf Region). This was the group that gave
rise to the Oceanic group from which the Polynesians
derive.

> Does the fact that Austronesian languages are more
> fragmented there in Indonesia and Malaysia than in
> here help the idea (There are no other indigenous
> non- Austronesian languages here, but plenty in
> Indonesia-Malaysia). Correct me if I’ve been
> mistaken please.

My understanding is that Austronesian is more
fragmented in the Phillipines than it is in either
Malaysia or Indonesia. This would support the theory
that Austronesian has been in the Philippines for
longer than it has in Indonesia and Malaysia, with the
result that all the so called Negritto groups today
speak an Austronesian language. Like the Pygmy groups
of Africa who speak a Bantu language - they appear to
have lost their original languages (which may have
been a form of Indo-Pacific!)

> 4. From where do the modern-day Austric
> speakers get their more Chinese look? Besides the
> modern Malays of obvious part-Chinese descent, ¿is
> it possible for a mass of genetic *mongoliforms* to
> have swamped the earlier "Australoid" type in SE
> Asia? But obviously, not all SE Asians look like the
> Southern Chinese. A wide range of varied physical
> types is still prevalent; some more mongoloid, some
> more australoid, and some intermediate. What do ya
> think?

The so-called "Chinese" look you refer to is "Southern
Chinese". Northern Chinese look quite different.
There is also a genetically different form of
dentition - the Sinodont and the Sundadont. See
Openheimer's "Out of Eden" for a good description.
The peoples of South East Asia contain a mixture of
htese peoples, over an Indo-Pacific Melanoid
substratum.

> 5. Are the Aetas or Negritos original
> Austronesian speakers or is it more plausible to
> suggest that they are of Indo-Pacific origin
> (genetically, and until the Austronesian expansion--
> linguistically too).

I would say the latter.

> Obviously, they don’t look like the majority of
> Malays (who resemble S. Chinese more). Could the
> Aetas and other earlier inhabitants
> be Indo-Pacific in genes but Austronesian in
> language? I can say the same for Oceanians.

Yes! Oceanians have a mixed lineage. The MtDNA
suggests an Indo-Pacific lineage. The Y Chromosome
however suggests a straight Austronesian lineage.

> 7. What are Levo and Deutero Malays?

Levo Malays are often called Proto-Malays. They tend
to have been people of the neolithic cultures that
spread from Formosa. Deutero-Malays are speakers of
Sundanese related languages that spread with the use
of iron tecnologies. It is said that the Levo-Malays
have the highest proportion of Melanoid genes.
Deutero-Malays tend to be those you describe as "more
South Chinese looking".

------------------------------------------]

btw, may i ask? who is pure among us anyway???

peace

Haplogroup B is the Mtdna found in West coast Amerinds,koreans,Malayo-Polynesian,koreans,japanese,Southern chinese and Miao
Haplogroup F is the mtdna found largely in mon-khmer groups

If I may add, Taiwanese Austronesians, Micronesians, Melanesians, and Polynesians are NOT Malays! Taiwanese are called Formosans, and the rest have their own names. They are all Austronesian/Malayo-Polynesian, YES, but we have specific names for specific groups. To say that Polynesians are Malays, is just as innacurate as saying Indonesians are Micronesians.

eastern shang dynasty people cluster w/ austronesians and hmongs in maternal lineage

<<<eastern shang dynasty people cluster w/ austronesians and hmongs in maternal lineage>>>

maybe it's the "austric" substrate in southern chinese...

Mtdna lineage
Haplogroup B(Ina),F(Fufei) and Y(Yumi) are austric but why does austric MTDNA also cluster w/ the european MTDNA haplogroup U,J,T,K

Haha, doesn't look like a S. Chinese!

Yep, yep, yep!

He does look like southern chinese but because of skin tan he does not look like

Skin Tan? That's the least of it.

Dalawapo asked me to post this message on his behalf. I don't know why but I am more than happy to render him the service.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whitewatcher you are a very knowledgeable indivdual. i am saying this after reading your "Post:


QUOTE
Apr 16 2004, 09:26 PM - Based on my understanding however,
I would like to make some notes on the site presented by Bhunter:.."



Although, i must argue your statement:


QUOTE
"If I may add, Taiwanese Austronesians, Micronesians, Melanesians, and Polynesians are NOT Malays! Taiwanese are called Formosans, and the rest have their own names. They are all Austronesian/Malayo-Polynesian, YES, but we have specific names for specific groups. To say that Polynesians are Malays, is just as innacurate as saying Indonesians are Micronesians."



I believe it is very damaging of the Austronesian people as a whole to accept the horrible divisions which were created by Foreigners and other European Colonialists who merely cut up the GREATER MALAY ARCHIPELAGO & PENNINSULA and renamed sections of it to identify their individual colonial possesions JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH AFRICA..

As you know, the "Philippine" islands are merely one section of the Greater MALAY ARCHIPELAGO that was cut out of the "MALAY pie" and named "PHILIPPINES" after some fat fauck from spain. it does not mean the inhabitants are "Philip's sons" etc.

the word "Indo-nesia" was created by dutch who thought they had landed somewhere in India and "-nesia" merely means "islands" in greek. But it does not mean the inhabitants are GREEK INDIANS...

"Malaysia" on the other hand, has a more appropriate name, though created by a white man who comibined the word "MALAY" which were the inhabitants of the country to be formed and "SIA" which was taken from"A-sia" But still, this term has consequently led IGORANT people; both Malay & non-Malay alike, to form the misconception that an Ethnic "Malay" person comes only from "Malaysia" or that people are led to believe that "Malays" both (Proto-Malay & Deutero-Malay) must have originated in "Malaysia" because of the name....

Let me just say here that it would be very BENEFITAL in the 21ST CENTURRY for us Malays of the Western Branch of the greater Austronesian family to recognize Malay Brotherhood in no other dire time then now because as you know The foreign religions various Malays have adopted; Islam & Christianity has created a horrible enviornment of BROTHER Malay killing BROTHER Malay because we have been concentrating too much on the Foreign adopted differences then our Same Austronesian roots that we all share. We are essentially born into religious Castes destined to fight one another as enemies and your caste determined by wheter you happened to be born on one island which is prodomineately mulsim or another island 2 hops away that is christian. Read the history of the Maluku Archipelago of Indonesia, where Christianized Malay and Muslim Malay are killing each or read about any other Region within the Malay world where Christianized Malay and Muslim Malay are "SHARING" the same plot of land. This situation is something so contradictory to OUR NATIVE Austronesian Morals and Customs of BROTHERHOOD, FAMILY, EXTENDED FAMILY.... We are also throwing away, disregarding our beautiful Austronesian Culture and supressing our honorable and sophisticated customs such as Matrilneal lifestyles because this, and certain other Austronesian customs contradict and are not "mandated" our adopted Foriegn religions such as Islam which we are trained to think of as CIVILIZED whereas our indigenous beliefs is deamed "Savage" or "backward."

Let's extend this frame of mind of "Brotherhood" to the Austronesian peoples further East. As i have read:

Micronesia merely means "small-islands"
Polynesia merely means "many-islands"
Melanesia merely means "black-islands"

And i have learned that in MICRONESIA, specifically the Marianas & present day Palau region, Malays were the first to inhabit the area sailing from the Philippines and were later met by migrations of Polynesians who interbred with them...

And Polynesians are merely Malays who mixed with Melanesians to form a relatively homogenous racial & cultural mix.

And Melanesian islanders are the same as Papuans who just settled on certain islands.

I believe WE Austronesians of the Western-Malayo-Polynesian Family (indonesia, malaysia, philippines, CHAM, MADAGASCAR, MERGUI, etc") SHOULD LEARN FROM THE EASTER-Malayo-Polynesian of the greater Austronesian Family (south Pacific isanders) and the Austronesian concepts of BROTHERHOOD which remain intact and venerated by them as we have obviously LOST it...

GOD. i love their concept of this "Polynesian Triangle" Why can't we have a triangle to express our common Austronesian bonds, ourselves?

I propose it be from Taiwan to Madagascar to Micronesia.

After all, we are in the region where the damn concept originated. But most importantly, we are the ones who need to stress our SAME brotherhood to thrwart inter-malay hatred spurred by religious differences; religions that are not even endemic in our Malay region. We also need to do this in order to SUPPORT our fallen, unfortunate, and FORGOTTEN Austronesian brothers who need our HELP. Those Austronesian such as the
LANDLESS CHAM , the MOKEN ISLANDER OF MERGUI/PHUKET who are dictated by recent border laws as their ancestral lands are split; one belonging to Myanmar and the other to Thailand, the NAGA striving for independence and soverignty to their lands whose people are also split as their ancestral lands are sandwhiched between India & Myanmar, and the MALAGASY striving to bond with their Malay brother and their Austronesian orgins in Insular Southeast Asia. But how the hell can they do that when we Malays of Insular Asia are killing each other and hating each other?

I have found that we Malays where the Austronesian culture originated need to learn from THE Malays who ESCAPED the ravanges of Foriegn invasion, dominon, & cultural geoncide because Madagascar people are trying to revive the Austronesian heritage, & South Pacific people continue to practice teh Austronesian heritage in its relatively pure form.

I believe these two are the Key to re-establishing this Austronesian bond between us all. As we Malays of Insular Asia, the birth place are all confused thanks to foreign dominon in our islands which has diversifed our regional cultures, religions & even CONCEPTS OF IDENTITY etc. and has conquently MADE US THINK OF EACH OTHER AS STRANGERS OR EVEN ENEMIES..

BEWARE OF THE RELIGIOUS WAR IMPENDING my Malay Brothers. do not take arms! do not kill your brother. WE MUST WORK QUICKLY TO REVIVE OUR BROTHERHOOD THROUGH OUR SAME AUSTRONESIAN ROOT CULTURE & LANGUAGE, if not through our Malay ethncity, AS I FEAR THERE WILL BE A WWIII... a war of religions, and the Malay World has the potential to be the hardest hit. Do not be pawns in the hands of Religious zealouts/extremists/terorrists.........

Here is a great way to revive the great Austronesian brotherhood:


QUOTE
2003 Festival of Austronesian Cultures in Taitung, Taiwan

Dates : 2002/12/21 ~ 12/31
Place : Taitung County
Sponsors : Tourism Bureau, Ministry of Education, Council for Cultural Affairs, Council of Indigenous Peoples
Organizer : Taitung County Government, National Museum of Prehistory
Associate : IOV Taiwan

Among the various tribes around the world, the range of distribution of the Austronesians is the second only to Indo-European tribes. The distance they cover from the east to the west is over half of the earth`s circumference, covering from the Easter Island in the western shore of South America in the east, from the Madagascar in the eastern Africa in the west, from the southern area of New Zealand in the south, and the northern shore of Taiwan in the north. According to the Australian archeologist, Mr. Peter Bellwood`s research, it shows that the Austronesian languages of Taiwan`s aborigine peoples contain many ancient language elements, Taiwan is viewed as the homeland of Austronesian languages and possibly even the place where the Austronesian people originated.

The third "Festival of Austronesian Cultures in Taitung", designated as one the Twelve Major Local Festivals in Taiwan, is held at the National Museum of Prehistory in Taitung. Attractions include the Exhibition of Austronesian Musical Instruments, Tribal Experience Camp, Flotsam Creation of Installation Art, and Ceramic Creations

Some of the most popular events of the festival are the music and dance performances by visiting Austronesian cultural groups. As the international coordinator, IOV Taiwan invited groups from the four major Austronesian cultural regions: Indonesia, Micronesia, Melanesia and Polynesia, including performers from Madagascar, Palau, Papua New Guinea, the Cook Islands and Easter Island. The most special thing about the festival this year is that it provided a rare opportunity for groups from the westernmost (Madagascar) and easternmost (Easter Island) areas of Austronesian culture to come together for a grand exchange of experiences with Taiwan`s aborigine peoples in Taitung.

http://www.iov.org.tw/english/event_2002/event200212.htm



& to Bonjou... The ultimate homeland of Southern China is lost to us. the Culture & people far sincized. It is Taiwan that we must look to our origins as the aboriginese have retained their Austronesian culture.

let us venerate not only them, but all our Proto-Malay ancestors & their ability to preserve the Austronesian Culture despite the many attempts of Foreigners and converted Deutero-Malays to subjegate them:

the Taiwan Aboriginal
the Igorot of Luzon
the Lumad of mindanao
the Iban/Dayaks of Borneo
etc...

Let us also look to the Naga of Nagaland as they are vary reminiscent of the Austronesian culture, though their language & features appear to be quite different, no doubt as a result of regional assimilation.

-------------


--------------------





AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE & LANGUAGE WAS BORN ON TAIWAN. TAIWAN ABORIGINAL R THE MALAY'S ANCESTORS; NOT YUET WHO R SINCIZED.

http://www.taiwanfirstnations.org

http://www.atayal.org

whitewatcher,
i have a question, do you know where the austric group came from? the mon-khmer people are austroasiatic. the malays are austronesians but were the mon-khmer and malays once the same people? i understand that the word austro/austric is a greek term meaning south. austroasiatic literally means south asia. austronesia literally means "southern islands" in greek.

tais and hmongs are related Malays

thanks doan du!

angkorwat19, yep yep! i'd say so. Austric (I call Asiatic) might have originated as distinct from Australasian, and Indo-Pacific in the SE Asian mainland, coming from the west. There, it diverged into the Mon-Khmer, Ainu-Jomon, Hmong-Mien, Austronesian and Daic languages we know today. perhaps in the distant future, they may diverge again.



"we were once just one people... from one womb, one land; from one mother... i think we still are, no matter how different we have become."

All the people who think this man doesn't look like a S.-Chinese, please raise your hand.

Americo-Austro-Tai
Americo-Austro-Tai uses numeral classifiers infrequently the Americo-Austro-Tai people built large megaliths and created large pyramids in ryukyu island

Me, I don't think he looks S. Han Chinese.... look at his nose and head shape. definitely NOT a Han to me...

note: looks aren't everything!

Actually he looks more hmong or korean

what Korean?????

My reaction exactly. I was thinking more along the lines of native South American Amazon tribal than Korean.

Yes,korean look since the malays and koreans have some genetic similarities

but not very much i believe... maybe for some.

I for one have seen plenty of Koreans, and none of them resemble him. Maybe in comparison to white Europeans or black Africans. I think he resembles South American natives more.

i'd say so as well...

Now Koreans are related to the Malays as well?

Comparison between a Korean Man and a Malay Man:

Korean:


Malay:

What hmong use to be malay?

*look around*
And "All the people who think this man doesn't look like a S.-Chinese, please raise your hand"

*raise hand*
for me he dont even look nothing close to Han Chinese.

They are related in Maternal DNA

they resemble each other

Bhunter, we CANNOT always assume things.....

some Koreans may tie up with Malays in their mtDNA, but some may not.... actually, most do NOT. there are many lineages to be addressed.

yes, they resemble each other... they're both human aren't they? :lol:

The two photos: I can't see any resemblence either. There facial features are quite different.

they do not resemble each other at all.

They do not resemble each others at all.

Yes quite since ancestors of koreans that are related to malays mixed w/ Tungus people that is why they look tungid and Miao-Yao people are closely related to Austro-tai people

Creo que....

I believe it's the other way around.... Koreans are more "Tungusic" than they are "para-Austronesian"... so technically, the para-Austronesian is "just" a substrate of it's "ALTAICness".

I believed the person who started this thread is the same person: Orang Malayu, Pnoi Lyk Hoi,and using different alias than Bishoujohunter in AF. He is also in Cham forum. His goal is to claim the rest of the world are mixing with Malay.

no,I am not Orang Malayu he is racist i am saying this because of Maternal DNA and similarities in mythology of polynesians and koreans the myth of an egg as the birthplace of royalty and open syllables