If the basics of the belief don't concern you then it is obvious that you are a person who gets your priorities wrong.

Without these basics of belief about God, a person would not be a Muslim.

wahhabis are not Muslims.



A girl is able to get pregnant once she has menstruated - that means she is able to be a mother.

But it is your belittling societies that keep youth busy with being stupid for many years until when they get to their last year of uni in medical science that they find out that their brain has been atrophying all that time and it will never be as good as it was again.



Surat an-Noor, Verse 31 orders the woman to cover their adornment except what is apparent and to cross their head cover over the opening of their clothes.

“Except what is apparent” was explained by both ^A-ishah and ibn ^Abbaas to mean: “The hands and face.”

A'isha did not say a woman must cover her face.

That is another exposure of your ignorance.

And the indonesian vice president is not a person to take Islam from.

Mut^ah is rejected.



As for your supposed interpretations of the Hadeeth, do people live without houses?

Did the Arabs go without horses?


Perhaps the meaning is about worldly pleasures and attachment to them and forgetting about the Hereafter because of them.

The woman who lives her life according to the rules revealed to the messenger of her time will be successful in this life and in the Hereafter.

Being successful does not mean wearing a suit while exposing parts of her body to people she does not even know or might not want to expose in front of - as is the case with many women who succumb to such social pressures.

Being successful does not mean drinking alcohol at what are called by some "formal dinners" because you want to please your boss.

Being successful means realising the proof that the Creator Exists, teaching others about Him, believing in the Prophets of God and living as God Ordered regardless of the hardships that one may face. Dying on the state of piety and entering Paradise because you died as a believer.

I am speaking of general principles but your quibblings nevertheless confirmed my point. I have been with my girlfriend's female relatives and have not once even made an inappropriate remark, let alone gestures or touchings. Their men's presence were not necessary.

---------

Those beheaded Christian girls were not murdered for fame but simply because they were Christians.

====
But the beheadings of those Christian girls were religiously motivated. Just because you disagree with whatever interpretations of the Quran and duties of a muslim, that does not negate the religious influence and motivating factors. Even psychopaths kill for a reason, no matter what they might be. Only the mentally insane kill for no reasons.

====
I beg to differ.

http://www.usindo.org/Briefs/2003/Doug%20R...%2009-08-03.htm
As if buildings cannot be repositories for ideologies.

====
The Shi'ites believe the banning of muta'a by the second caliph Umar is invalid. This is an intrafaith dispute and as such it remain largely an Islamic issue. Similar to the Catholic-Protestant contentions on many Christian issues but none of those contentions render the Catholic or the Protestant any less 'Christian'.

====
You may call it religion if you wish. Social scientists acknowledge every human society is essentially social engineerings.

====
Then we can say that the hijab or the burqa is effectively an unjust indictment of women since the burden is upon them to cover themselves lest they be deemed 'sluts' since the circular logic employed by muslim men is that only 'sluts' goes uncovered.

====
What good are degrees if your gender is barred one manner or another from making full use of those degrees? It is only recently that Saudi Arabia has a woman pilot. As for other countries where Islam is the dominant religious and social force, has the progress made by these degreed women any equal to that of the secular West? And as for muslimahs not allowed to drive, nowhere have I said so. I have referenced Saudi Arabia.

Who are you?

A weak, biased human who does not know much except for what you learn in the proportion of your day which you set aside for learning - and from who? The tv? The internet?

No wonder you have the wrong ideas about things.


You completely disregard the fact that from Adam to Muhammad there were Messengers of God who taught the people to believe in God and told them the rules to live by. Such Messengers were supported with miracles such as curing the blind, curing leprosy, bringing back people from the dead to go on and live and have children, having a camel come out of a rock, having the moon split, having the wooden tree stump moan, having the trees and rocks greet one, having a deer speak the testification of faith, having a baby speak.

All these were witnessed and stood as proof for Prophethood and there are many more.

It is not my place whether to call a muslim as such or not. For the ummah, as long as a person recite the shahadah, he/she becomes a muslim. If I tell you I am a Rastafarian and speak of the religion appropriately, you have no choice but to accept my word that I am a Rastafarian.

====
I do not dispute biological laws. But for modern day societies, we realized that biological imperatives are the result of base animal instincts for the need of survival of the species. That is why we have evolved the definition of 'adulthood' to include such items like emotional and psychological maturity, greater physical development and life experience. Are you, a woman, telling me that as a 9 year old girl, you were as 'matured' as a 19 year old woman? Do I need to search and bring to you the medical complications resulting from early pregnancies by very young girls in Third World countries where child brides are allowed?

====
So now the intellect is equated with the vagina. Use it or lose it, is that it? Else I am unable to decypher this comment of yours.

====
Did I made up that verse from Abu Dawud?

====
He must have taken 'his' interpretations of Islam from somewhere. Certainly not from the infidel West. The fact is that as a political figure, he is aware of the practice and is making no efforts at improving the lives of women in Puncak, a region under his rule. Do not quibble with me about his vice presidency. Even as a VP, he can do a lot of good but he chose not to do so.

====
Who am I? One who does not subscribe to superstitious nonsense like you have just espoused.

As for your claim that the christians were killed Islamically then you obviously overlooked the fact that if there was a caliph for the Muslims, there is such thing as a peace treaty between christians and Muslims.

wahhabis do not care about Islam, they care about image.

If they cared about Islam then when showed the proof they would have repented of their ways - the fact that the proof is clearly against them yet they refuse to come back to ahlussunah shows that they are not interested in the truth.

Don't think wahhabis are so numerous.

Ahlussunah waljamaa3ah are hundreds of millions of Muslims. wahhabis are about 1 or 2 million.

in Bosnia ahlussunnah fight the innovation of wahhabis.

In Lebanon they do also.

In Egypt too.

In Medina.

In Indonesia.

In Yemen.

In USA

In london

And in Australia.

The Muslims know that wahhabis are not of ahlussunah which is why the wahhabis tried to change their name to salafis - but it doesnt matter what they call themselves, the proof is against them because their aims are claimed to be under the banner of Islaam but in reality they contradict the rules of Islam.

a person with experience in fighting misleaders will know who are the misleaders and who are not.



You have just belied christianity as well as Islam.



Are you so closed that you do not hear except what you want to hear?





Let me correct you:

A person who recites the shahaadah while holding in his heart something which contradicts it does not become a Muslim.

An example which contradicts it is the incorrect belief in God such as to attribute to Him body or body parts - these are attributes of creations - not the Creator.

--------------------
As for your claim about young girls in 3rd world countries: let me point out a few things which you are using to bias the conversation.

A girl who is underfed will have problems during pregnancy.

A girl who is living in bad conditions and not in relaxed conditions will also have problems.

If the girl has menstruated and she is not underfed. She is not a skinny stick figure like many western 9 year olds are or even 9 year olds of countries of famine.

If she is living in relaxed conditions then no the pregnancy will not be a problem.

I have seen girls half my age who look as old as me. Age is not the issue here - the issue is whether the body has developed its mechanisms or not.


--------------------------
Nothing will happen to you if you don't use your private part.

Where the problem is is if you do not use your brain.

If you do not use your brain to logically prove the existence of the creator.

To debate such ingorance that is spread on the internet and in other places in society.

When you lose the capacity to do that - that is where the big loss is.

-----------------------------------
Abu Daawood narrates Hadeeths. If you can't even get that right then I do not think that you got the Hadeeth right.

---------------------
Just because a vice president sees a deviant ruling which has already been refuted many times - still being practised, it does not make it right for him to adopt it.

The ruling against mut^a has already been proven and it was not because of ^Umar - no. It was a law which was abrogated by Revelation during the lifetime of the Prophet.

The existence of wahhabis does not mean they are valid just as the existence of people who practise fornication while calling it mut^a does not mean it is valid.

---------------------------

I aleady replied to this but it seems like you don't want to listen.

UNCOVERING IS NOT EQUAL TO SLUT

Uncovering is a small sin.

slut is a major sin.

To call an uncovered woman "slut" if she never did fornication is A MAJOR SIN.

I will repeat: TO CALL HER SLUT WOULD BE A MAJOR SIN.

Is it loud and clear?

----------------

Islam does not stop women from putting their degrees to use.

Had you researched a bit more you would have known that there are many female doctors in Arab countries, many university lecturers, many dentists, many engineers.

wow that was quite a mistake.

Where do you live? lol.

But why should there be a need for a caliph anyway? Is the ummah that bereft of intellect that the muslim cannot see the need for religious tolerance? Face reality, it is not possible for a wahabbi to convince a Buddhist, or an atheist or Hindu to commit murder in the name of Islam. Only a muslim can convince another muslim, and another and another to abduct those Christian girls and beheaded them.

====
I am not here to defend wahabbism, I am here to debate Islam in general and the oppression of women under Islam in particular.

====
So what? The Bible is also another book of superstitions.

====
And I have no way of knowing what is in the heart at the moment of the recital of the shehada. And neither do you.

====
Prove it. Girls in the West are generally well fed enough except for extremely isolated cases of abuse. I want to see a consistent statistical pattern from an internationally recognized health organization that shows NO physical problems during pregnancies by very young girls, as early as 9 or 10 years old girls who married to adult men.

====
Thank you for clarifying your comment. And so far, no one has been able to prove the existence of a creator of the universe.

====
I know Abu Dawud is a narrator of the hadiths. I am asking you that did I make up the verses about Aisha......Here Aisha seems to tell women that Allah will not hear their prayers if their faces are not covered with a veil. You are saying that the face covering is un-Islamic.

====
According to the Shi'ites' arguments, the abrogation verse must come after the original establishment of the practice, and the allowance of mut'a was when Muhammad emigrated to Medina while the banning of the practice was spoken was when Muhammad was in Mecca.

====
Like I said, if being uncovered is so minor a sin, then why have such enforcement laws in the first place? The point which you seemed to missed is that I used the word 'slut' in the pejorative, as in insulting, not descriptive, as in actually meaning the woman is sexually promiscuous. Even in the permissive West, one of the worst thing I can call a woman is a 'slut'. That does not mean I am aware of her sexual history and lifestyle. It simply means I am associating her reputation to that insult. So when I say muslim men calls any uncovered woman a 'slut' I am being accurate as to their attitude towards this woman, not that they accuse the woman of any sexual impropriety.


====
Where do I live? In the US where, unlike Islamic countries, women are allowed to do as they wish. Even be astronauts. No mistake here, I am aware that despite the presence of women in universities and even in the engineering profession, the problematic question for you remains that how is it that despite all these degrees, the lives of women under Islam is still less than those of their secular or Christian sisters. Are you telling me that you can do whatever you want?

Why do we need a caliph?

So in school they didnt teach you why there is a government?

------------------------



A wahhabi only convinces stupid people to suicide bomb with him.

Anyone who learn Islaam know that suicide bombing is not allowed.

And know that such killings as what you mentioned are not FOR Islam, they are AGAINST it.

PROOF THAT THE CREATOR EXISTS

The sound mind can not accept the existence of writing without a writer,

or buildings without a builder.

The sound mind can not accept creations without a creator.

------------------------

Stop confusing Islamic practises with wahhabi ones.

-------------------

wahhabis have already shown their incorrect belief in God.

If you need a caliph in this day and age to teach you about religious tolerance, the ummah is indeed in a very sorry state of being morally adrift.

====
Not according to the murderers. They who beheaded those Christian girls and toss the heads miles from the bodies did it in the belief it was for the greater good of Islam.

====
That is no proof. I hope this is not the result of university degrees from Islamic institutions. If it is, then it is no wonder that Islamic countries are so far behind that of the rest of the world.

====
Like I said, I am not here to defend wahabbism. They are YOUR problem for it is they who claims to be muslims.

--------------------------

It is not superstition to believe in miracles.

God Exists & He sent Messengers with miracles.

Those miracles were witnessed by many people who reported it to others - their number was so great that it would be illogical to reject their report.

Just like it is illogical to deny many well-known things that happened in wars.

------------------------
So are you trying to tell me that you believe writing can exist without a writer - maybe a big bang will come and put a newspaper together for you?

--------------

I am not immoral so that I can feel happy to leave people on blasphemy without trying to tell them the way to Paradise.

That is worse than letting a person go down a road where there is a sniper you know about.

-------------------

The fact that people like you and the media keep saying to the Muslims "wahhabis are your problem not ours" and yet you keep portraying them as if they represent all Muslims.

That's sad and a let down and shows that such people have a goal in their mind which is to use wahhabis to attribute bad things to Islam just because wahhabis claim to be Muslim and WE TOLD U THEY R NOT.

Their act is rejected in Islam.

Allah sent messengers? So then by your arguments we should include Odin, Thor, Mithras, Quetzacoalt, Zeus and just about every gods ever created, existed or 'seen' by man since all them could have been sent by Allah. Again, that is no proof. You have failed.

Inferences are not proof.

====
And yet Mahathir of Malaysia have no problem being inline with the Saudis in believing in a global Jewish conspircay to control the world.

--------------------
Yes, I don't see how my life is less than any other woman's life.

I live in Australia and have been to Lebanon.

I do Medical science in Australia and my sister in law is a radiologist in lebanon. She is also studying to be a historian.

My other sister in law owns a store and works there.

My other sister in law works in her father's supermarket.

Many girls in Lebanon go to uni and work and have good jobs.

Maybe this is not enough for you.

Maybe now you will say to me that doing whatever you want includes going to night clubs and having sexual partners out of marriage.

Well I don't want to do that stuuf because it is not freedom it is a form of oppression. Over there is a social influence and a desire to please the crowd.

Don't tell me that I know nothing about it because I was born and raised in Australia and I know what I'm talking about.

I am in a position to make a comparison and get it right because I'm talking from experience.

You however are in no position to do that because of your extremely limited knowledge of Muslims.

--------------------------------

What logic concludes is a proof.

Logic concludes that if you see writing there is a writer.

Are you prepared to deny that?

-------------------------
Sharing an opinion with a wahhabi about something does not mean that you accept wahhaabism. You may not even know what wahhaabis think of that and yet still hold that opinion. I don't think wahhabis are the ones that made up that idea lol

------------------------

There is a difference between greek mythology and the people of the book and Islam.

Let me first explain Mssengers. They are humans.

There is only 1 God.

All Messengers taught that there is only 1 God.

So, no the greek mythology that rejects the belief of only One God is not accepted.

Moreover, there is a chain of narration which proves the witness of certain miracles. Also recent karaamahs for pious people happen as a miracle for the Prophet they follow (in this age Prophet Muhammad).

And that has chains of narration.

Not through one route or 2.

Through twenties of people telling twenties of people telling twenties of people and so on.

There were some mircales witnessed by thousands of people such as the karaamah of Ahmad ar-Rifaa^iyy during Hajj time.

Look it up
-----------------
Good night

Geez. nomad, i am nursing a hangover and after seeing you on this thread, the hangover just got worse...

What makes you think monogamy is the only way of life for our civilization?

I am heading for the beach now to cure the headache.

Samy, you stand right up to the guy for your beliefs and convictions. He's no different from you really!

Love, ginger..

You are able to say that you can do as you please because the government of Australia ensured your civil rights while Islamic countries will work hard to control you. I have been to Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait. I have seen enough of the lives of women in those countries. I have lived in the UK for 3 years and in those years have travelled to several European countries. I have toured East Berlin when it existed. I am fully capable of assessing and declaring that my secular West is better for women than what Islamic countries can do for women. Do not say that socializing is a form of oppression for you have to consider that abiding to your religion is a form of desiring to please other muslims as well. I was once a religious person. I know the mentality. Do not attempt to mislead me by saying you strive to please only your god. That line is stale.

====
No I do not deny that. But logic alone is not proof. The atom was hypothesized with the ancient Greeks. But proof of it did not come about until much later. Logic also demands that if you do not see something or unable to replicate its effects then whatever it is that was hypothesized it does not exists. So if you are willing to say that djinns and angels exists then you must also make allowances for gnomes, elves and unicorns as well.

====
So you do not believe Jews are evil and that they are not trying to control the world?

====
You are being totally illogical. You have no basis for accepting the words of one group of people over the words of another. So what if one group says there is only one god and many others agreed with him? If mass belief is sufficient, then why do muslims rejects the divinity of Jesus and demote him to status of mere prophet and not the son of God? There were witnesses to his resurrection from death and ascension to heaven. How do you know for certain that Odin, Zeus and Thor are only physical manifestations of the same god? If that is true, then these ancient gods are no less valid for worship and respect than Allah.


If you are willing to share your husband with another woman, then do not cry foul if your husband sees all of you as little more than semenal wastebaskets.

You said:

"You are able to say that you can do as you please because the government of Australia ensured your civil rights while Islamic countries will work hard to control you."

But I had already mentioned women from Lebanon so I don't see how that could have been your reply if you had actually read what I wrote.

The fact that just like me, women in Lebanon have educations and jobs, is completely against the whole image you are trying to portray of Islaam.

It doesn't matter how much you try, you can't change the fact that in Islamic countries there are a large number of women who make a career for themselves and they do it to show that they can.

-----------------------------

No I don't do worship to please people because that is actually the sin of insincerity.

Unlike some people, I don't care what anyone thinks of me if I am doing what God ordered.

There are many instances where this is proven because I am not always in front of good Muslims, sometimes not in front of Muslims at all.

I know there is a Hereafter and I know that God Knows all - even the intention with which I do things.

So, your argument is yet again refuted.

I'm not like you - I don't do things to gain praise of people.

You, being a disbeliever, think that it is this world and that is it.

Well if you think that then you will also think that the primary thing which matters is what you show to people.

You don't feel shy to hold evil in your heart as long as you don't tell anyone about it.

In this way you blacken your heart even more than it is black and you indulge in this world wishing for it not to end.

But every person is going to die and whether you believe in the Hereafter or not does not change the fact that it is whatthe Messengers of God ALL taught the people.

---------------------------------

------------------------------

When I say logic I mean sound intellect. Not some philosophical sequence that does not make sense to anyone.

When you see writing you know there is a writer.

In the same way, when you see creations you would be contradicting the sound intellect if you do not admit there is a Creator.

The sound intellect is a witness to the truth of Religion.

-------------------------
Jinn and Angels exist.

That is known because the Prophets of God told us and some people have seen jinn and Angels.

You obviously don’t have any experience with such people so don’t try to make a conclusion now.

No one in the world believes that gnomes and elves exist.

------------------------------
Every blasphemer who denies the Creator and who belies the Message is a committer of the biggest of evils.

That is why they will be tortured in Hellfire forever if they die that way.

And just for your information, wahhabis were started by the british in order to destroy Islam:

http://aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English...OfMrHempher.htm

And tony blaire seems to know a man called amr khalid who is a big misleaders but goes on tv a lot and tells the people that Palestine is for the jews…

------------------------

I have a basis for accepting the words of one group over another if one of them contradicts the sound intellect.

When Christians come to us and they don’t even have their original Book (which if they did have it would not be different to ours in belief), and they also contradict basic sound intellect by saying that God or part of God died, and by worshipping a body then they are rejected.

The body can not be the Creator because it is itself created. It has a certain size and shape and hence is in need of one to specify it as such as not as something else.

God is not a body; He is the Creator and not a creation.

Change is impossible on Him because that which changes is a creation.

God is Eternally Perfect and hence change does not apply to Him.

Hence it is not as you think probably from tv or from Christians that God takes the forms of creations.

That is rejected because it negates Godhood.



---------------------------

As for your disgusting comment it just goes to show how ignorant you really are.

I do not know how you can claim to have gone to so many places and yet expose yourself by making statements such as those.

Personally I think that even if you did go to an Arab country you did not see anything of what you are saying. All what you say now is a result of tv and not of experience.

If you had even mixed for 1 day with practising Muslims then you would have corrected yourself.

But who wants to mix with you? A biased person who thinks so highly of himself and thinks he knows what happens in everyone’s family without even meeting them.
-----------------------

nomad, I think its about time you picked up your things and left.

Stop wasting my time.

The more secularized a government, the less able a religion can oppress the citizenry. This fact seems to have escaped you and this is common among those who are excessively religious. They are not able to see the necessity of a line between state and religion in order to have a just society. Lebanon is not as free as Australia, free in the sense of civil liberties. Without the sizable population of Christians in Lebanon, to the point that a political office is guaranteed for them, Islam would overrun Lebanon and the women of Lebanon would be like that of Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. For Lebanon, the office of the Presidency MUST be reserved for a Christian, the Prime Minister MUST be a Sunni and the Speaker of Parliament MUST be a Shi'ite. This is a weak form of government and a barely functional democracy. Civil liberties are not morally ingrained. In these Islamic countries you speak so highly of, can women apostate without being under some form of death threats? No, they cannot apostate (murtad). Here is a letter, from a Lebanon Islamic authority, regarding murtads...So a male murtad can be put to death but not a female murtad, some consolation for your gender, I supposed. In this, it is highly unlikely that the civil authorities in Lebanon will prosecute or even investigate the killer of a murtad for in doing so, this weak government could incur the wrath of both Sunnis and Shias. Yes, of course, a woman in Lebanon can have a university degree and hold a well paying job, but if she examine her life, her intellect and her spirituality and decides that Buddhism is more appropriate and apostate, she can be imprisoned or even put to death in Lebanon. You call this civil liberties? You say that I am critical of Islam, specifically regarding women, based upon my ignorance. I would say you are naive about women under Islam based upon your own ignorance despite the fact that you are a muslim and I am not. I do not need to be a muslim to recognize religious oppression when I see it.

====
It is only your opinion that I am refuted. I did predict that you would deny any possible peer-pressure. There is no way for me to know with 100% that you practice your faith without considering some measure of peer pressure, just as there is no way for you to know that I am what I am because of peer pressure as well. But it is an accepted psychological analysis that peer pressure plays an important part in our lives. Peer pressure, aka approval, compels us to excel, to conform to certain standards, to obey the laws and yes, to gain entrance to heavens. I am positive that if you read your Quran you will find passages in there that exhort muslims to 'support' each other in faith.

====
So you feel that as a muslim, you hold divine right to call people 'evil' as you see fit, especially if they disagree with you. I am not offended, actually. I have come to realize that this is nothing more than a psychological defense mechanism by religious people.

====
Wrong. We know that writing and its associates are artificial constructs. We do not know but can only infer at best that the universe is also an artificial construct. For all we know, and evidences so far support the hypothesis, is that natural laws enabled the universe to be as it is today. Nothing miraculous about it.

====
That is an argument of the brainwashed and full of logical fallacies. I no more and no less than you or anyone here have any experiences with jinns and angels or gnomes or elves. And from what basis can you categorically declare that gnomes and elves do not exists? Because you simply made the statement -- No one in the world believes that gnomes and elves exist. -- and that should be the end of discussion? You are insulting the intelligence of the participants here. I could say that when I was in Ireland I saw a leperchraun and other Irishmen have reported they have seen these creatures as well. How do you that is the truth?

====
On behalf of most people here I thank you for calling us 'evil' people just because we are not muslims. Or is it that because I am not one of the fawning admirers in this discussion and that I have posed difficult questions that I have earned such a label? So how many of these fawning admirers converted? None? Well then, do they not qualify as 'blasphemers' also?

This is just too funny.

====
Not interested in conspiracies.

====
You are making nothing more than assumptions about the godhood that are no more or less valid than that of the Christians regarding their definitions of what is the godhood. Take the molecule H2O for example. Most people would call it water, but in truth 'water' is only one state of this molecule, the other two physical states are 'ice' and 'steam'. So if the molecule H2O can have multiple physical states and if you believe that all are created, then how can you place limitations on what physical states God can possess? If God created H2O to have 3 possible physical states, would it not make sense that God himself is much more capable and can have any form or bodies of any size He wishes? Your contradictions are so glaring.

====
And yet the religiously minded have no problems at all calling people they have never met 'evil' or that we are going to hell.

====
I can assure you, your time will not be wasted. I have my own copy of the Quran, the hadiths and other commentaries to challenge you. You can do what most muslims generally do, absent any insults but unable to face tough questions, you can cry to the moderators that I have 'offended' your Islamic sensibilities and request my expulsion from a supposedly 'free speech' environment.

How many times do we need to explain to you about the difference between wahhabi Taliban wahhabi authority and between true Islam.

I think you know the difference you just don’t want to understand.



------------------------------

Why would a Muslim male or female want to take themself to Hellfire?

----------------------------

------------

Like I said, doing things for people's praise is a sin in islam. A major sin.

It is insincerity.

----------------

-------------------

Someone who denies their creator has committed the greatest evil.

------------------------

--------------

Even if you were to accept the theory that the world exists by natural laws.... where did the natural laws come from?

Why do they work in the way you claim?

Nothing creates itself and there is no creation without a creator.
----------------------

------------------------

Actually you have made a false generalisation.

There exist many people in the world who know about jinn and Angels.

Ever heard of an exorcism?

Do you think it's just a movie or something?

Don't you know that asians also know about black majic which is forbidden sorcery that involves jinn.

I think you are short of talking to people.

Or maybe you always talk to the same people....

I have never in my life met anyone who believes in lepricorns however you spell it. Yes they might say a fairytale about it but at the same time they would be admitting in not to be true.

-------------------------------------

You want to be blind?

http://aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English...OfMrHempher.htm

"Memoirs Of Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East is the title of a document that was published in series (episodes) in the German paper Spiegel and later on in a prominent French paper."

-----------------------------------

-----------------------------

God is the One Who deserves to be worshipped because He is not weak and has no imperfection.

He is not created.

Therefore He is not a shape, or size or subject to any such specifications.

Change from state to state is a sign of need. And hence a sign that that thing is not God.

--------------------

The Qur'aan and the Hadeeths do not challenge me, they agree with me. The issue is whether or not you get your sources correct - wahhabi or not wahhabi.

So far we have talked for I don't know how many pages and I have replied to many of your questions but you seem like you are here to make trouble only.

You didn't exactly come here and post that article about that rich guy to be friends with me.

And how many times have I told you I am not here to defend wahabbism? In my previous post I did not mention wahabbism at all. If this is your tactic to avoid answering tough questions, it may work with other gullible and fawning admirers in this discussion but it will not work with me.

====
Again you are being evasive. It is their choice to become an apostate or remain a muslim. The point I made is that Lebanon is not comparable to your Australia where you can apostate one day and return to Islam the next and the Australian government will protect your CIVIL rights to do so as many times as you wish. Your muslimah sisters in the Middle East, even in Lebanon, enjoys no such protections. Do you support the death penalty for apostasy?

Sura 9:73......Here Allah is instructing Muhammad to hunt down apostates and kill them if necessary.

Bukhari......If there is 'no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out from error' as you so piously claimed and fawning admirers gushed over you, then why should there be any compulsion in remaining a muslim? AM I MAKING UP THESE VERSES? Are you going to accuse me of confusing wahabbism with 'true' Islam? Is Bukhari a 'wahabbist'? Or is this hadith NOT considered sahih?

I present to you, and the gullible and fawning admirers of this discussion, the Lina Joy situation of Malaysia. Lina Joy apostated and wanted to remove the 'muslim' from her identification status. She became a Christian. In the West, and that includes Australia, the government does not care. But in Malaysia, considerable efforts by all branches of the government to block the finalization of her apostasy, which is to publicly documented her new religious status.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1178882006
...The truth is that Lina Joy MUST NOT win her case in the Malaysian court. The ummah is psychologically insecure about itself, therefore it has to resort to threats, violence and even murder to keep its membership. British pop singer Cat Stevens converted to Islam and basically disappeared from the music world. Many people were understandably sad as Stevens was truly talented. He changed his name to Yusuf Islam and supported the death sentence, a fatwa, against writer Salman Rushdie, who wrote The Satanic Verses, a mocking novel about Islam in general and Muhammad in particular. The fatwa was issued by Khomenei or Iran. Stevens, aka Yusuf Islam, has nothing to do with Iran. And yet he was willing to support murder FOR Islam. Salman Rushdie went underground for ten years to protect his life. Khomenei was not a wahabbist and neither was Khamenei, his successor who reaffirmed the fatwa. Muslims may couch it in religious term but essentially the death fatwa was an order for muslims everywhere to murder Rushdie. Do YOU support the death penalty as proscribed in the Quran and in the hadiths for apostasy?

So much for 'no compulsion in religion'.

====
Yes, yes...But we have no idea to what goes on in your mind, do we?

====
Thank you for calling billions of people 'evil'. And how many of these 'evil' people have you met?

====
Natural laws are exactly that -- natural. They need not be created. Assuming that the Big Bang hypothesis is true, natural laws were created at that time.

====
No. The one who is making the generalization here is YOU for saying that jinns and angels exists when you have NOTHING but hearsay. I have heard of a religious rite called an exorcism. But so what? How does that prove a demon exists? Because someone says so? It is sad that you do not see the illogic in your responses.

====
Again...not interested in conspiracy theories.

====
No. You are the one who is setting limitations on God. Read your own words. He created you so why can He not appear in your form?

====
And so far you have failed to prove I brought you false sources. It is neither the Quran nor the hadiths that will challenge you but it is I who will use the Quran and the hadiths to challenge you.

====
Pretty much as I predicted about what you will say of me. You have failed to adequately answer my questions. You have avoid many of them. Truth is that you are behaving like many muslims I debated -- avoidance -- and later try to portray yourself as a victim. If asking tough questions is making trouble for you I suggest you retreat to the intellectual safety of the home and not try to prosyletize.

Which questions did I avoid?

Tell me.

Or is it just in your opinion that my answers were not answers?

Stop blaming Muslims for wahhabi oppression of women. Blame yourself for not differentiating between wahhabis and true Islam.

--------------------------
You said: "If there is 'no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out from error' as you so piously claimed "

Really? I claimed that?

It appears that we have another misunderstanding.

In Islam, blasphemers will be tortured in Hellfire if they die that way. All accountable persons are ordered by God to embrace the Religion He ordered them to embrace - Islam.

Disobeying the order to embrace islam results in Hellfire.

Which questions? Pretty much ALL from my last post.

------------------------------------

If there was a caliph in the first place then it would be correct to apply the punishment for the apostate by the caliph. To give the apostate a period of time to embrace islam and if he does not then he is executed.

But again due to your lack of knowledge I need to correct you. No, that rule is not applied in Lebanon.

No, that rule is not applicable if there is no caliph.

Stop exposing your ignorance.

It is pretty blatant for anyone to see right now.

--------------------------------



------------------

No actually I am answering those questions of your last post now.

Even if you were to accept the theory that the world exists by natural laws.... where did the natural laws come from?

Why do they work in the way you claim?

Nothing creates itself and there is no creation without a creator.

Who is the one avoiding questions eh?

------------------
He is not created.

Therefore He is not a shape, or size or subject to any such specifications.


asking why it is not possible for God to be a shape is like asking why a car can not be moving and stationary at the same time.

Obviously because it is mentally rejected.

The sound mind deduces that it can not be.

Something with specifications must have one who specified him and hence is not the creator.

-------------------------------

A person who for one second doubts about Islam becomes a non-Muslim.

There is not paper to sign or declaration to make. God Knows what is in the hearts.

---------------------------------

No the big bang theory is not true.

This whole world is not the result of an atom which exploded.

Where did the atom even come from according to them?

They have no answer.

----------------------

It is sad that you don't see how you avoid large paragraphs of my replies.

----------------------------------

Good heavens....You do not know your own 'holy' texts?......I do not mean you personally, but I mean 'you' as a muslim.

====
Thank you for finally admitting that the death sentence for apostasy runs counter to what muslims often piously claims -- no compulsion in religion -- as shown by Yusufali et al. And if you dispute the death sentence for apostasy in Lebanon, then please show us all how that letter is wrong.

====
Natural laws came from...NATURE...? But if you claim nature and natural laws are 'created' by a 'creator' then show proofs, not inferrences. We can go round and round all day and all it will prove is that you need to take some true science from a science teacher instead of religious pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo from the imams.

====
You are in a logical trap called 'infinite regression' regarding the creator and the created. If there is something then there must be a creator, so you say. Then if Allah exists, who or what created Allah? Then who or what created the creator of Allah? And so on and on. The only way out is to cheat by simply declaring that Allah is 'not created' and leave it at that. It solves no problem. It is an intellectual cop-out.

====
But that person should be put to death anyway. Thank you for showing us all how fallacious is the phrase -- no compulsion in religion.

====
Showed you have not read about that hypothesis for anyone to take seriously your empty declaration that it is not true. Take some real science instead of religious mumbo-jumbo.

====
No. Everyone can see that I quoted and address your points. You just simply do not like the fact that I disagree with you.

====

-----------------------

So you feel confident to call something a theory when you don't even have knowledge about it.

-------------------------------

In Islam, blasphemers will be tortured in Hellfire if they die that way. All accountable persons are ordered by God to embrace the Religion He ordered them to embrace - Islam.

Disobeying the order to embrace islam results in Hellfire.


THAT is from my Holy texts. Not the faulty interpretation which you provided and accused me of saying when I never even said it.

-------------------------------

Don't you know that asians also know about black majic which is forbidden sorcery that involves jinn.

I think you are short of talking to people.

Or maybe you always talk to the same people....

It seems you included this in your quote from me but did not reply to it.

------------------------------------

I think you forgot that I study science.

Maybe you need to eat some sultanas to help your memory.

The big bang as they teach it in uni is an unexplained theory.

They say that the whole world came because of an atom undergoing some kind of fusion.

But yet again you avoid the question - where did the atom come from?

-----------------------

-----------------------------

As for your supposed analysis of my logic, you missed an important point.

There is no specification without one who specified it with that.

Specifications are for bodies, shapes, sizes and colours.

Everything other than God is subject to those specifications.

God, the one Who specified them is not subject to specifications.

He exists without a beginning without being created. There was no non-existence before His existence.

--------------------------------

Nature is specified with working in a certain way. It is specified by God.

------------------------
Yusuf ali is not trustworthy, neither is the one that starts with P and I have never in my life heard of the third one.

See with people like yusuf ali, you get the wrong interpretation of the Qur'aan.

For example, alif laam meem does not mean A L M.

And there are many examples of places where such interpretations fail to give the correct meaning. Obviously because they are done by the wrong people.

Ever heard of a book called mistakes of yusuf ali?

Look it up.

-------------------------

I do have knowledge about it. May be not as a professional scientist in that field, but based upon my own scientific education and technical work, I am confident that the process in which REAL science came to that hypothesis is more valid than religious mumbo-jumbo. I also have read about the plasma origin of the universe as well. It is a competing hypothesis that also follows the same REAL scientific process. And what do YOU know about it to say that it is wrong?

====
Again, I do not mean you personally but you as a practicing muslim. And show us all how are Yusufali, Pickthal and Shakir wrong in their translation?

====
So what? It is superstitions? If jinns and angels exists, then where are they now? Strange that they 'disappeared' at the advent of the Industrial Revolution.

====
Atom? Fusion? The fact that you used those words indicated to me you must have forgotten what you learned despite the availability of information about the theory. Correct yourself and we will continue. But I can also use the same style of argument as you did for Allah. 'It' was just there waiting to explode. Like Allah, no one or nothing 'created' this thing that expoded.



====
I never said that God is subjected to the limitations He supposedly 'created' for the universe, did I? I asked why are you saying He cannot adopt them for His own use? It seems I have a greater respect for God than you do.

====
Yes, yes...We can agree to that if there is a God. But so far there has been no proof of even jinns or angels, let alone God.

====
Show us all how is Yusufali, Picktall and Shakir in error of Quran [2:256] -- There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

Simply saying 'he is wrong' is insufficient.

Okey dokey...I am going explain this one more time. There is a difference between you, samsparky, a person behind the computer screen, and you, a muslim here speaking about her religion. I do not know the person behind the computer screen, but I can say that I somewhat do know the religious person in which I am having a debate about a religion. When a religious person speaks about his religion, often he will cite certain pertinent texts from scriptures or interpretations of pertinent scriptures. This is what happened back on page 7......So when aisyah said 'faith is not compulsory' she (?) is doing exactly what I expect of a religious person would do -- making an interpretation of pertinent texts -- which in this case is Quran 2:256...There is nothing wrong with lumping you, samsparky and aisyah together as it seems both of you are PRACTICING muslims.

Get it now?

=============================

The forum moderator had better ban me quick before this gets any more difficult for samsparky.

Actually when I said "So you feel confident to call something a theory when you don't even have knowledge about it."

I was referring to the fact that you called the memoirs of hempher a conspiracy theory. Do you have any proof of that?

Why was it published in episodes in German and French newspapers?

Don't try to speculate because your speculations have no value.
-------------------------------

Faith is compulsory.

If it wasn't compulsory then no one would go to hell for not having faith.

------------------

The proof for the Existence of God is what actually comes first.

Like I said, it is against the sound mind to say that a creation came with no creator.

The big bang theory is refuted because it says that something came without a creator.

----------------------

--------------

"God adopting limitations for his own use" as you claimed.

That means you are saying that it is possible for God to be limited.

That negates Godhood.

--------------------------

-----------Back to the big bang again.

Yea it was fusion.

They said that protons (they are inside an atom if you didnt know that) started fusing and producing other elements.

The protons have a shape and other specifications.

Hence they are in need of a creator.

God is not in need of a creator because He is not subject to specifications.

----------------------

---------------------------

Jinn and Angels didn't disappear.

It is just you who refuses to research about it and other superstitions as you claim them to be.

You just shrug them off without checking it out.

Are you scared or something?

That you will turn out to be wrong.

Why do u keep avoiding to check.

--------------------------

------------------------------
Yusufali, Pickthal and Shakir are wrong in their translation because they contradict the Verses which talk about Hellfire for the blasphemers.

And the Verse which means: The only Religion accepted by Allaah is Islaam.

And weren't you the one who was refuting their mistranslation?

Or maybe you forgot.

----------------------------

Now it gets a little clearer. I call it a conspiracy theory because you are trying to say that somehow the British 'created' wahabbism which is not true. The British, for their own reasons at that time, decided to favor a man named Wahab. So what if wahabbism came to dominate Saudi Arabia and is increasingly popular in Asia? I am not here to defend wahabbism. I used it to point out one aspect of applied Islam. No more. The origin of Wahabbism or Salafism has nothing to do with our discusion. If Islam is so great for women, then why are women in Islamic countries still lead lives that are not as comparable to their Western kufar sisters?

====
Thank you for admitting that Islam endorses forced conversion. Either that or you have a serious misundertanding of 'compulsion'.

====
You have refuted absolutely NOTHING.

====
Wrong. I neither said nor even implied no such thing. If God is so powerful to create a rock out of nothing, it would be easy for him to assume the form of a rock and back again. No limitations there. Again...It seems I have a greater respect for God than you do.

====
Nonsense. That is NOT what The Big Bang hypothesis says. You get an F.

====
Research what? Hearsay? A thousand people saying angels and jinns exists and not once did any of these beings appeared to prove these people right. Not too long ago the whole world believed the Earth is flat and it is on record that they believed so, does that make the Earth flat? More illogic from you.

====
Source for what you claim, please. And I am not refuting their translations, I am refuting the muslims' claims that Islam is tolerant. Muslims will use Quran 2:256 to say that Islam does not endorsed force conversion I am saying that in practice, there are compulsion in Islam, so much that murder is supported.

wahhabism is not as aspect of applied Islam - so get that right.

And we already discussed that Muslim women in Muslim countries are successful it is just you who wants to be blind to that fact.

-------------------

A "forced conversion" as you called it, is not a conversion at all.

In order for one to become a Muslim there must be the conviction in the heart and no one is able to force that.

-----------------------

---------------------------

Are you sleepy or something? Do I need to use extra clear sentences for you?

It is against the sound mind to say that a creation came with no creator.

You agreed to this when you agreed that there is no writing without a writer.

The big bang theory is refuted because it says that something came without a creator which is logically impossible.

-------------------------------

--------------------

In your opinion doesn't a rock have limitations?

God is Perfect without imperfections.

He doesn't change because if He did then He would not be Eternally Perfect.

---------------------------

-----------------------

I am just relating to you what the big bang teachers taught in uni and high school. If you want to call it nonsense then I agree.

-------------------------

If there is such thing as an exorcism then obviously this is something seen.

If there is such thing as black majic then it is also something seen.

You keep avoiding avoiding avoiding and asuming assuming assuming.

But no reason not to check....except that you are scared.

-----------------------------

----------------------

Surat Al ^Imraan, Verse 19 means : {The only Religion Allaah accepts is Islaam.}

Of course it is applied Islam. It is based upon the Quran, not the Bible or the Kama Sutra.

====
No I can see the issue quite well, thank you. If women are so successful under Islam, then why is it only recently that we see ONE muslimah pilot?

====
But you yourself say faith is compulsory. Here......Perhaps you mean faith is mandatory. Compulsion is to compel or to force. To be mandatory means that faith is a requirement once the person entered the religion.

mandatory -- adjective: required by rule.
compulsion -- noun: using force to cause something.

Do you see the difference? So...if faith is mandatory and not compelled, then Yusufali's, Pickthal's and Shakir's translation of Quran 2:256 is correct, that there is 'no compulsion in religion'. But then again, the Quran contradict itself with Sura 9:73......Here Allah is instructing Muhammad to hunt down and persecute apostates.

And......Here we see an important muslim leader ordering the murder of an apostate.

So I am asking you again. If there is to be no compulsion in religion, then why are there compulsion to remain in the religion? Even to the point of death? I do not care if there is a caliph or not. I am talking about principles. Are there Jewish hit squads hunting down people who were once Jews? Are there militant Catholics murdering Protestants? And yet we see many incidences of people who wants to leave Islam being under death threats or faces persecution like Lina Joy in Malaysia. DO YOU SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY FOR APOSTATES?

====
You have refuted NOTHING. I can repeat that all day.

====
Perfect without imperfections...redundant, is it not? If something is perfect, OF COURSE IT WILL HAVE NO IMPERFECTIONS !!!. If God is omnipotent, He can do anything He wants. And how do you consider a rock 'imperfect'? Why can't God assume the shape and form of a perfect rock? If God assume the form and shape of a diamond, would you know it? I will say it again...It seems I have more respect for God than you do.

====
I do not know what you were taught but it certainly was not the version I learned. The Big Bang, as the hypothesis goes, does not come from an atom. If that was what you were taught then indeed it is nonsense, but not mine.

====
Calling me 'fearful' only serves to reveal the paucity of logic in your arguments. It is YOU who assumed that jinns and angels exists without demanding more proofs. To you, proofs simply means mindless repetitions, I supposed.


====
How does that proved Quran 2:256 is wrong?

wahhaabism is refuted using the Qur'aan and Hadeeths.

wahhaabis tale parts of the Qur'aan and interpret them in ways which contradict other verses.

Hence they can easily be refuted.

----------------

umm is a pilot your icon of success?

I have not even met one non-Muslim lady who is studying to be a pilot.

There are more important jobs.

--------------------------------

Personally, I do not see anyone hunting anyone down and killing them because they left Islam.

I have never heard of it even in Lebanon.

Thus I bring forward my point - when there is no caliph, no one has the right to enforce the punishments.

When there is a caliph, the apostate (whether known by witnesses or by his own admission) is given a period of days to return to Islam. If he does not he is executed.

Surat Al ^Imraan, Verse 19 means : {The only Religion Allaah accepts is Islaam.}

This shows that those who choose for themself a Religion other than Islam will be in Hellfire in the Hereafter.


No one is ABLE to force a person to believe (have faith) in Islam because that is something in the heart.

That does not mean that no one should try to reason with a blasphemer. It does not mean leave the person to go to Hellfire without trying to save him.

--------------------------

----------------------

There is something called logically rejected.

It is logically rejected that the Creator change.

Because change is either for the better or the worse.

Nothing changes & stays the same.

Change for the better or for the worse is an indication of imperfection before and after respectively.

------------------------------

What do your teachers say about the big bang?

Oh yea I just remembered lol - the big bang theory is rejected in like over a hundred universities in USA loool

Maybe they changed it now.

----------------------------

No actually I didn't ASSUME that Angels and jinn exist.

You ASSUMED that they don't.

-------------------------------

good night

We see Quran 2:256......This is the verse that pious muslims trotted out prosyletize. But why muslims do not bring out the hadith, a recollection and story about Muhammad, that said the opposite...The word sahih is meant to denote a book is scriptural, it means it has been considered 'valid for instructional purposes' by scholars of the faith. For all practical purposes, sahih means the story about the central character is highly accurate, if not %100 true, and whenever Muhammad is concern, whatever is considered sahih it might as well be %100 true about Muhammad. Questioning an imam about a sahih text can be detrimental to one's health. So here we see Muhammad telling people that he was ordered by a god named Allah to wage war upon strangers and non-believers, to FORCE them to convert and finally to force them to pay a tax (zakat). What happened to 'no compulsion in religion'?

====
Easily? Get to it. Show us some examples. Bring it, don't just sing it.

====
Why shouldn't a commercial pilot license a measure of success? Are there more important jobs? Importance can be relative. The President of the US is the most powerful man in the world but once in the air, the pilot/captain of Air Force One is as equally important as the man he serves. Can you see how? I doubt it. You do not need to meet a non-muslim woman pilot to know that they exists. Or are you saying that since you have not met any, they do not exists? This is from a person who automatically believes in jinns and angels. The point here is that regardless of how many women pilot you or I or anyone may meet or may never even meet, the opportunities for women in the secular West far outnumbers those for muslimahs living in countries where Islam is the dominant social and political force. It is telling of the mental and emotional oppression to women from Islam that while there is now ONE muslimah pilot in Saudi Arabia, an Islamic country that is far more oppressive for women than Australia, but yet out of all the muslimahs living in Australia, the US or Europe, we see how many? Can we say statistically insignificant proportionate to their population? But guess who gave muslimahs the best opportunities to become MILITARY pilots? Iraq (under Saddam) and Pakistan, two oppressive military regimes !!!



The irony cannot be missed. It required the iron hand of the military to grant muslimahs the opportunities to do what their non-muslims sisters of the West have been doing for decades.

====
I have posted a letter of authorization to persecute an apostate in Lebanon. Please review it. But the point is not about Lebanon and it seems you are focusing on Lebanon because that is the only country outside of Australia you have travelled? What about Lina Joy of Malaysia? What give the government the right to deny her public status as an apostate? You can dodge and weave all you want. I have supported my indictment against Islam as somehow so beneficial for women.

====
Fine. But that still does not prove somehow Quran 2:256 is wrong.

====
Change is not automatically for better or worse. Which is 'better' or 'worse': water, ice or steam? None is better than the other. Each state has its uses as far as we are concerned. Steam would burn us but we use it to power many machines. Water could drown us as well as sustain our lives. Ice preserves our food. But each is a state of the molecule H2O. If God is omnipotent I say He can give Himself any form He wishes, even human ones. If Jesus can turn water into wine, He can certainly turn Himself into a cow if He wanted. Jesus the cow not only would He be the most powerful Cow ever in the universe but also simply the most powerful being in the physical realm. So in that, the nature of the godhood has not change, only His appearance. Again, it seems I have a much greater respect for God than you do.

====
Care to give a source on that? Oh, that's right...You have none...Other than empty statements.



====
More illogic. If you believe at face value from hearsay that jinns and angels exists, then it is logical that you have assumed they did exists. And yes, I do not believe jinns, angels, the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause exists. So it is YOUR burden to prove to the public that jinns and angels exists if you are going to tell us to believe in them. You receive an F for formal logic.

The meaning of the verse is not "no compulsion in religion"

The meaning of it is that if there is a thimmiyy paying the tax of jizya to the caliph then he is not forced to enter Islam.

------------------

Questioning an imam about a sahih text if it is to know the chains of narration is valid.

Questioning him about the actual meaning is valid.

Belying the Prophet is not valid and is blasphemy.

There is no caliph so people can not take punishments into their own hands.

-------------------------

Zakaat is not a tax.

Zakaat is an obligation on whoever owns much wheat crop for example or many sheep.

It is not paid the the Prophet. It is paid to the 8 types of people mentioned in the Qur'aan.

-------------------------------

No actually you didnt post a letter of authorization to persecute an apostate in Lebanon.

You posted an answer to a question of the Islamic law of what happens if a person apostatizes.

Have you even been to Lebanon?

--------------------

If you want a refutation of wahhabis just read the 6 articles.

http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/Eng...iyyArticles.htm

---------------------------

Islam does not say that women can not work.

You are again on purpose using wahhabis and presenting them as Muslims.

Stop using saudi because it is full of wahhabis.

To me a pilot is comparable to a driver.

--------------------------

Water is not perfect.

Water is a creation in need of a creator.

That by itself is enough of an imperfection since we are talking about Godhood - not creations.

See that is the source of your problem.

You keep applying attributes of creations to the Creator.

Attributes of creations are indications of their status - creations.

------------------------------

Having a shape is a sign of a creation.

Change is a sign of a creation.

---------------------------



Obviously the big bang theory is rejected by some because there are other theories.

That is shown because I learned something here is australia and you learned something else.

If even scientists are not in agreement then that means the big bang theory and other theories are not proven.

They will remain teaching students whatever they want to teach them.

-----------------------------

again i will ask you - does anyone in the world other than children believe in santaclause? or the easter bunny?

No of course not.

But is there people Muslims and non-Muslims who know about jinn?

Yes of course.

Not every single person who believes in Angels and jinn came to that conclusion because they saw them.

But when a Messenger with miracles which can not be challenged comes and tells the people matters of the Hereafter and the things which we might not always see, it is against logic to bely him.

Just like I believe in Judgement Day because the Messengers of God preached that, I believe in Angels and jinn because the Messengers of God preached that.

I don't have to see Judgement Day to believe in it.

And if I wait until Judgement Day then I would have died a disbeliever.

To be fair, an attraction to, or sexual activity with, a 14 year old girl (or young lady if one prefers biologically) would not constitute the clinical definition of pedophilia. An important distinction the medical community believes, because humans that have moved into puberty and taken on sexual characteristics of physical attraction, are normal (depending on their level of physical development and beauty) to be attracted too (mean adults and post-pubescent peoples). Pedophilia is a psychological disorder connected to sexual attraction to children that have not entered puberty - and it takes on a strong addiction nature. Generally sexual attraction to girls 12 years old and younger are what consitutes pedophilia, and I believe sexual attraction to boys 14 years and younger constitutes homosexual pedophilia.

Ahhhh I think there is potentially the tension of passive-aggressive sexual attraction between you and nomad.

I have read and fully understand the APA's clinical definition of pedophilia. I am saying that despite what biology may compel our bodies to do, we have gone past the time when early pregnancies were the results of the need for the survival of the species -- shorter lifespans -- for one. A 16/14 years old relationship is not considered pedophilia for obvious common sense reasons. Today we call it 'puppy love'. But a 64/14 years differences? It may not fit the strict APA's clinical definition of pedophila, but I challenge any parents here willing to have their daughters walking arms in arms with a 64, 54 or even 24 year old man down at the local shopping mall.

The 7th century Islamic qualification for adulthood is first menstruation and biology tells us that could occur as early as nine years old. Muhammad, the founder of Islam, married a six year old girl and consumated the marriage when Aisha aged to nine and Muhammad was 50-something years old. The modern day INTERPRETATIONS of what is an 'adult' no longer confined us to biology. We have included emotional, psychological, intellectual and increased physical development other than the egg-producing uterus to call a female an 'adult'. Islam would have us regress back to the 7th century. And this is supposed to be a boon for women? I challenge any of the gullible and fawning FEMALE admirers of samsparky in this discussion to go down to the playgrounds or look at their younger FEMALE siblings and come back to this forum and tell us all that those 9 year old girls are PHYSICALLY, not biologically, ready for sex, child-bearing and child-birth.

The 7th century Islamic qualification for adulthood for boys is first emission of semen and biology tells us that males enters puberty later than females. That means under Islam, a boy of about 12 or so can become an 'adult' after he has his first wet dream. I challenge any man here in this forum to go to the ball fields or look at their younger brothers playing Tony Hawk on their X-boxes and come back to this forum and tell us all that their 12 year old brothers are ready to drive, to vote and even to work 40+ hours a week.

To marry, have sex, be pregnant, give birth and rear a child our modern day sensibilities tells us we should give those responsibilities to girls 18 years old or older. We all know some 18 year olds are more matured than some 28 year olds and we all know some 18 year olds whom we would rather give a good spanking to teach some needed lessons. But we have set the arbitrary number of 18 for that is the best number we can compromise between biology and common sense.

So if marriage and sex is 'adult' enough for menstruating nine year old 'women', how about killing in defense of one's country and beliefs? Would going to war and kill be 'adult' enough for 12 year old 'men'? I served 10 years in the military and can handle an M-4 very well while rucking 100 lbs of commo gear. Would any fathers and mothers here willing to send their early teenaged boys to face a fully grown, trained and armed soldier?

Quran 2:256 has nothing about dhimmis. Here...

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.htm
...And yet in Sura 7:93 we see Muhammad commanded by Allah persecute apostates......I am asking you to reconcile this contradiction. If there is to be no compulsion in religion, why should there be compulsion to remain in the religion? Looks like the only thing you are good at is to simply parrot selected verses without fully understanding your own religion.

====
Good, then ask your imam to reconcile Quran 2:256 and Sahih Muslim Chapter 9, Book 1, Number 33. The question is still the same -- If there is to be no compulsion in religion, then why should there be compulsion to remain? That verse in Sahih Muslim clearly had an Islamic leader ordering the murder of an apostate. The presence of a caliph is irrelevant. If Quran 2:256 tells the world that forced conversion is wrong, then why does Sura 7:93 and Sahih Muslim tells the world that it is acceptable to punish those who want to leave Islam? That is like the government of Australia tells the world that we welcome people to become Australian citizens but we will punish or even kill you if you want to leave Australia and become an American citizen. Why should a caliph punish any apostate? There are Christians who converted to Buddhism or even to Islam, but did the Catholic Church hunt them down to punish them? I fully expect these analogies to go 'whooooosssssh' over your head.

====
Zakat IS might as well be a tax no matter how much you want to quibble about it. It is supposedly giving to the poor but since it is mandatory and enforced, what else can it be but a tax? It is calculated as slightly more than %2 of a muslim's annual income. Under an Islamic government, there would be a collector of zakat, so it is a tax.

====
Yes, and why was it requested of an Islamic authority in Lebanon? May be because the apostate is in Lebanon? The point which you totally missed is that not just Lebanon but also on the other side of the world in Malaysia, apostates are percecuted and such persecutions are proscribed in the Quran. Nitpicking on Lebanon will not make the Lina Joy case in Malaysia go away and make your arguments any easier. The problem is larger than Lebanon or Malaysia. Quran 2:256 tells the world that there is to be 'no compulsion in religion'. If so, then why should there be compulsion to REMAIN in religion?

====
Again, I am not here to defend wahabbism, but to point out that what wahabbism is came from Islam, not Buddhism or Christianity. You said that the wahabbis was wrong in saying women has to veil themselves. I showed you a verse from a hadith that said Aisha, Muhammad's favorite, said women should cover their faces. According to Abu Dawud......So if you say that the order for women to cover their faces is wrong, then explain why is Abu Dawud wrong. Show us all here why is this hadith NOT sahih. Again, I am not defending wahabbism. I am saying that many of the oppression of women in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan have valid origins in the Quran and the hadiths.

====
That is funny. That is like saying Australia is just another island. Or that the kangaroo is just another type of rat. Or that a Space Shuttle astronaut/pilot is just like a bi-plane dust crop pilot. You cannot explain why the lot of women under Islam is so much less than their infidel sisters so the only thing you can do is to diminish whatever accomplishments women in the West have achieved. It is women like you who are complicit in their own oppression by men. I am a man and I can recognize that.

====
Wrong. Water as a state of the molecule H2O is perfect. There is nothing else but two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. We can have dirty water but the contaminants does not intrude into the actual make up of the molecule itself. So if H2O as as ideal as possible in this universe, water is perfect. So where is the creator? Natural laws. Merely repeating whoever told you what about science will get you nowhere. You get an F in science for the next semester.


====
And another F in science for samsparky. For the purpose of this discussion, I will use the word 'theory' somewhat loosely. The Big Bang Theory, henceforth shall be known as BBt, is the best explanation for available observed physical evidences in the universe. Facts do not conform to theory but it is theory that must conform to facts. A theory explains the facts, their relationships and their consequences. Scientists may disagree on the details of BBt, but they do not disagree with the LOGICAL PROCESSES that created BBt. And LOGICAL PROCESSES is what make up modern science, not religious mumbo-jumbo like how the Quran said the moon was split. There may be competing hypotheses for the origin of the universe, but to date, BBt is still the best explanation for observed evidences. With thought processes like yours, no wonder the Islamic ummah is so behind the rest of the world in science and technology.

====
You missed the point over and over. It is increasingly obvious that you are not capable of logic. If there are jinns and angels, it is not enough that you read about them but also that you see them as well, or at least detect traces of their existence. And no, exorcisms does not qualify. The issue is not about Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny, it is logical thought processes.

No I agree with you in the essence of what you are saying about a 14 year old girl not being an adult.

I'm only meaning to point out an adult male can (and its quite normal) be physically (not to read: mentally) attracted to a 14 year old girl - especially many of the 14 year old girls today who for unknown reasons as of yet are physically developing better and earlier than previous generations of young girls.

...samsparky...Please explain to these curious and fawning admirers the obvious contradictions between Quran 2:256......And Sura 7:93......If there is to be 'no compulsion in religion', then why should there be compulsion to remain in religion? Why should there be persecution of apostates? Do not try to evade by saying only a caliph could rightfully persecute and punish or even kill apostates. The question is why should apostates be punished at all, let alone executed for wanting to leave Islam? Why did you not tell these people that Islam forbids apostasy?

British writer Salman Rushdie wrote a satirical novel The Satanic Verses that did not portray Islam and Muhammad in a very flattering light. Iran's Khomenei, a Shi'ite not a wahabbi, issued a fatwa calling for Rushdie's murder. Whether Khomenei is a caliph or not is not the point, rather the point is that why is Islam so insecure that critics has to be violently silenced to the point of murder? British pop music star Cat Stevens converted to Islam, adopted the name of Yusuf Islam, supported the death fatwa. Stevens/Islam is not a wahabbi but call himself an ordinary muslim. Why or what is it about Islam and the Quran that compelled him to abandon all the liberal beliefs he once came from?

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271: ...Here we see an order to kill an apostate. Bukhari was a respected scholar of Islam and his work is considered sahih, correct? Again, if there is to be 'no compulsion in religion', then why should there be compulsion to remain in religion, even to the point of murder?

Correction nomad, although I already corrected you before by posting a link:

Q: Why did Prophet Muhammad marry ^Aisha at age 6?

A: He did not. He married her at 9, and copulated when she 14. And as she (^Aishah) said: “Every time when my night passes by, he used to go at nights to “al-Baqi^” (the graveyard in al-Madinah) thinking for the people in the graves (making supplications for them)”.


Females of previous times matured much earlier than these today.

There are still in some places, females who develop sexual features at young ages.


Had marrying A'isha been something so wrong as you make it out to be -then the blasphemers at Prophet Muhammad's time would have used it against him.

They did not because in that social context it was acceptable.

And don't think just by Arabs.

Not that many hundred years ago, it was normal for a 10 year old girl to get married.

No not because of a shorter life span lol.

The life span has actually become shorter not longer.

-------------------------------

The youth of today is different to the youth of the past because this society has made them so.

Driving it into their brains that they are still young and to be careless - you know what it has caused? It causes people to become 30 and still think they are young - and still act stupidly.

I know people that started work at a young age. At 9 if it's young enough for you.

I don't think you know anyone like that.

That is why you are so closed.

-----------------------

By the way in china the marriage age is like 22.

Do they think USA are stupid for letting 18 year olds have responsibility?

---------------------

Actually that Verse has everything to do with thimmiyys and I got my answer from the chairman of the Islamic High Council of Australia.

Why would I go and use some site that I don't even know the person who owns it.

----------------------------------------

No actually Zakaat does not depend on income. Get your info right before you talk.

Items subject to Zakaah:

Camels, sheep, cattle, goats

dates, raisins, and staple crops (e.g wheat, barley)

gold, silver, gold and silver ores, and golden and silver treasure-troves.

trade articles

+ Zakaah of FiTr.


------------------------------


The word khimaar in the Arabic language means head cover. Check in the dictionary.

The head cover is an obligation, the face cover is not.

I already explained to you al-Noor 24:31.

Look back and find the explanation.

Knowledge is not taken from the internet, it is taken from people of knowledge.

----------------------

Wahhabis are not from Islam, I already gave you a link to memoirs of hempher published in german and french newspapers in episodes.

but you still decide to ignore.

wahhabis are something new.

They started about 250 years ago. They strayed from the way of the Muslims and the Muslims to this day produce letters of refutation to them.

---------------------



If you want to talk to me about a Hadeeth, get it in Arabic because your translations are often wrong.

-----------------

Why are you mentioning pilots and not doctors?

Obviously because there are heaps of Muslim female doctors.

When you ask many parents what they dream their child to be do they dream of doctor or of pilot?

---------------------

Water is a creation - it is not God.

It is created by God.

It is not comparable to God.

------------------------

Nothing with a shape, size and other such properties comes on its own.

Water didn't come on its own and neither did nature.

--------------------

Which facts are the scientists going to use to make their theory.

They came to this world and saw the mountains already there, the seas and sky, everything around them.

What in the world gave them the idea that everything was squashed into 1 place and then exploded and made the whole world and the world is still expanding and it is now slowing down and later it will stop and scrunch into itself again and so on without a beginning and without an end.

Logically it doesn't make sense because there is no creation without a creator - that includes both objects and happenings.

A lot of these theory constructing scientists committed suicide -------> problems

----------------------

If you don't believe in anything until you see it then go and visit every place in the world before you believe in it.

How do you know that someone didn't lie about it in a book and make a digitally modified picture of it and make a fake documentary about it??

These are questions I want answers to.
--------------------------

If Muslims were like wahabis then yes they would be killing people now left right and centre - just like what wahabis do and have done for most of their existence.

When they debate with Muslims they have no proof so they kill them.

Had Muslims been like that, they would not have said: killing apostates if they do not re-embrace Islaam is only applicable when there is a caliph

They would have just killed them as what happens by ignorant people whether wahhabis or not.

If you want to ask the Chairman of the Islamic High Council of Australia the true interpretation of the Verse you keep bringing up, I already explained it to you. But if you think im lying ask him for yourself. Here is the site:

www.darulfatwa.org.au

Sahih Muslim, Book 8, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah)......Now why did Aisha took her dolls with her when it was explicit that images are forbidden to muslims for fear of idolatry? Because dolls are permitted only children. Here......Not only al-Bari but also ibn Hajar have concluded that dolls are permissable only for young girls for the purpose of preparing them for motherhood. It is highly unlikely that a 14 year old girl would be playing with dolls. Aisha was six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, a 50-something year old man, and the marriage was consumated when she was nine.

====
There is no credible evidences to back this up. If anything, puberty today comes sooner due to improved health care and nutrition.

====
So what? I do not deny that medical reality. But to me a menstruating nine year old girl is not an 'adult'. I challenge you to find anyone mother today who would call her nine year old daughter an 'adult'.

====
The laugh is on you for sleeping in science class. It is an accepted social theory that young marriages were because of shorter lifespans. In many places in Europe, a death at 45 is not unusual. Still, for Muhammad, supposedly a man of God, what was he doing marrying a six year old girl when he already has many other wives?......Basically, Bakr initially objected to the proposal as highlighted. As a father, he realized that what Muhammad was asking is at the very least questionable for such a man and a leader of a community. Bakr knew that there was no legitimately reason he can find for such a proposal.

====
So people back then were living well past the one hundred year mark? Please do not insult my intelligence.

====
So here we have it on record. A 21st century educated woman willing to regress back to the 7th century in a tacit approval of marrying a nine year old CHILD to a 50-something year old man. She seems to believe that pregnancy will make that CHILD an adult. What am I missing here?

====
You do know nine year olds who works 40 hours a week? Where? Sweatshops labor? Or are you just talking nonsense?

====
Age of marriage has NOTHING to do with what is legally an age of adulthood. For the Chinese, the legal age of adulthood is also 18. You are delusional if you think that only marriage make a person an adult.

====
Quran 2:256 has NOTHING to do with dhimmis......If you are talking about some other verse, I welcome clarifications.

====
Here...

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Zakat/
You can quibble all you want on whether zakat come from income or cattle. My point is that it is mandatory therefore it is a tax.

====
The muslims who made face coverings mandatory created those laws prior to the existence of the Internet. Here is what al-Noor 24:31 says......And here is what Aisha said.......al-Noor 24:31 does not say face covering is forbidden or even necessary, therefore al-Noor 24:31 does not negate the hadith where Aisha advised and admonished women to cover their faces. The wahabbis who created the sharia laws that said women must wear a veil is simply going above the minimum, which seems to be al-Noor 24:31. That proved my point that the veil is Islamic in origin, that the veil is not a figment of the wahabbis' imaginations as you claimed.

====
It does not matter if Wahabbism is new or old. What matter is the origin. That link you gave does not say the British 'created' Wahabbism, it simply said something to the effect that the British supported it. There is a difference. Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab was not a British spy but a muslim with his own interpretations of what is Islam, not what is Christianity or Buddhism. Therefore Wahabbism is Islamic in origin.

====
And so far you have failed to show me how or where the translations I bring are in error. Simply saying so just because you are a muslim is insufficient. My sources are muslim sources, not Christians.

====
Why do I mention pilots and not doctors? What difference does it make? The point is about opportunities and women under Islam has less of it, doctors or not. Heaps of female muslimah doctors does not negate the reality that muslimahs have less choices than their non-muslim Western sisters. You are not very good at logical thinking.

====
More lack of logical thinking. If God created a perfect diamond or a perfect blade of grass, that does not mean the perfect diamond or that perfect blade of grass has the same powers that God has. It simply mean God is powerful. Water is a perfect creation. Is this too deep for you?

====
I am not going to bother to go into Doppler shifts or cosmic background radiation in trying to explain BBt. Clearly you do not have even the most basic of science education from the highlighted. This is sad for the ummah. No wonder the Islamic world has not produced anything of scientific value for nearly a thousand years.

====
Fine, then show us all here a picture of a jinn or an angel and let science determine if the image is fraudulent or not. I may not believe everything I read but I believe in the scientific process, which it now plainly obvious you have not an inkling what it is and what it entails.

====
I never said that all muslims are Wahabbists, did I? I said Wahabbism has its origins in Islam. Still, so far you have not reconcile Quran 2:256......And Sura 7:93......And......Why are you avoiding my question, which is -- IF THERE IS TO BE NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION (Q 2:256), THEN WHY IS THERE COMPULSION TO REMAIN IN RELIGION ? Those are not 'Wahabbist' verses, are they?

Did I mention that I was going to make this discussion very difficult for you?

If you are so sure of yourself - why do you have in one place that he married her at 6 and in the other when she was 7?

According to your claims they are both saheeh - yet they don't agree with each other.

If you want to show me a Hadeeth don't show me dodgy english interpretations from people I don't even know.

SaHeeH Muslim is an Arabic book and I want to see the Arabic text because I don't trust your sources.

----------------------------------------------


You said: "puberty today comes sooner due to improved health care and nutrition."

And where are YOUR evidences to back this up?

------------------------------------


I didn't say that the veil (face cover) is not of Islam. I said that it is not obligatory.

wahhabis say it is obligatory.

-----------------------

You said:

"Quran 2:256 has NOTHING to do with dhimmis"

I say:

Liar.

I brang you the meaning and you rejected it.

Your sources are from the internet --> unknown author

My sources are known and valid and I even told you who said it.

--------------------------------

Again I will say no! wahhabis came up with their own beliefs and rules about 250 years ago.

They did not make up shariah law. Shariah law if you mean the laws that apply in the presence of the caliph, were there way before them.

All wahhabis do is use it when it doesn't apply since when it does apply it would be held against them by the caliph.

They went against all Muslims and they are rejected.

----------------------------

You said:

"Abu Dawud, Book 2, Number 0641"

Get it in Arabic and lets see if the word used is "khimaar".

If so then it means head-cover and not face veil.

And at the same time I would be exposing you unreliable sources of translation.

-------------------

A creation can be attributed with perfection as a creation.

But then to go and compare it to God and use it to attribute things to God is not valid.

The Creator is unlike the creation in any way whatsoever.

----------------------------

A bunch of scientists say: when you see snow on the tv it is background radiation and proof of the big bang.

That really proves it.

And as for your mention of doppler shifts, how would they figure out that the world is expanding outwards if according to them we and everything else are expanding with it.

Use your mind.

------------------------------

There is no picture of jinn and Angels but there are eye-witnesses.

Just like in the old days there was no camera and people believed in places by word of mouth.

word of mouth when it is by a large amount of people and through different chains is a valid evidence.

--------------------

A one year difference between accounts is nothing compared to your claim that Aisha was betrothed at nine and her marriage consumated at 14. Both accounts I presented had the marriage consumation at nine. If you are capable of using the computer, I can safely assume you are not that incompetent with any search engine. You can find the Arabic text yourself. Or is it more likely that you are just avoiding the issue.

====
Here...

http://faculty.smu.edu/jdbradle/LittleWomen.htm
If you had followed established science instead of religious mumbo-jumbo you would have find that there are many factors that can affect the time of the onset of puberty. Even obesity can induce puberty. What we call 'early' is merely a term denoting a timeframe reference to other females. But in general, countries that have poor health care and poor nutrition have later onset of puberty for their children. There is no evidence that Aisha reached puberty at the age of nine. It is only an assumption that if the marriage was consumated, she must have had her first menstruation. This is just ONE out of many similar reports.

====
No. You said the Wahabbist made it up. You said it was a 'figments of their imagination'. Here...But just because the Wahabbist made it mandatory and you disagree, it does not prove they are in error for making it mandatory in Saudi Arabia or in Afghanistan. It is a law that has its roots in the history of Islam from one of Muhammad's wives herself. Think about it. If you are a pious muslimah and a revered saint of your faith tells you that Allah will not hear your prayers if your face is uncovered, except for your husband, would you cover your face out of fear of Allah? Of course you would no matter what anyone else say.

====
Here is Quran 2:256 again...

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.htm
...Show me where does it say anything about dhimmis. Where is your source that says this is about making non-believers paying the jiza?

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I do not care if there is or is not a caliph to declare sharia. If a government full of Islamists call their laws Sharia Laws, it will taken as such.

====
Lookt it up yourself and bring it to us. But the point you have missed over and over is that the face veil is not of Christian or Buddhist or atheist origin but Islamic one way or another. And I said I am not here to defend Wahabbism but to show that they are not un-Islamic.

====
And I did not compared anything God created against God Himself, did I? But then again, according to the Christians, God Himself took on mortal form with being Jesus. It simply means that God is powerful enough He can do anything He want with Himself. He can even appear in human form if He wish and that would not affect His godhood in the least.

====
Snow on the telly is cosmic background radiation? The WORLD is expanding? You have no idea how much you are embarrassing yourself, do you? Use my mind? No, it is YOU who should be admonished to use her mind. With these gross scientific errors that come from a muslim, no wonder the Islamic world is so backward, even when muslims live with the modern sciences. Your mindless recitals of appropriate Quranic verses in earlier pages may have impressed some gullible people, but I sense it is becoming more and more evident, in their minds, that mindless recitals is all you can do. Science does not say there CANNOT be a Creator. Science is saying that based upon established scientific methods, the existence of a supernatural and omnipotent Being cannot be VERIFIED.

You are free to believe in Allah or Vishnu or Zeus or Odin or whatever you want. But if you come out and say that whatever you believe is THE definitive Creator of the universe, you must provide proofs under those established scientific methods. Simple mindless recitals of 'logical' inferences that everything must have a creator is not proof. And what did I say about the problem of infinite regression? If I exists, there must a parent, then there must be previous parents all the way back the family tree. Same logic can be applied to Allah. If Allah exists, then who created Allah, and who created that creator and so on and on. The only way to escape the problem of infinite regression is to simply cheat and say no one created Allah. This is not some esoteric form of logic but simple common sense.

====
Yes, and word of mouth is called 'hearsay' and in science, it is not evidence, let alone proof. Tell me, if you can, is the world flat? After all, many people believed the world is flat.

Has this clan turned into a Discredit the Qu'ran clan?

If u want to discredit the basis of muslim faith nomad, why don't you go to an Islamic forum where they can take on your judgmental attitude, @$$ hole?

Disparate as they may be in other ways, the world's constituted religions have all created their own formulations of the "Golden Rule."

Christianity: "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is law of the prophets." Jesus, Matthew 7:12.

Confucianism: "One word sums up the basis of all good conduct: loving kindness. Do not do to others what you would not want done to yourself." Confucius, Analects 15:23.

Hinduism: "This is the sum of the Dharma (duty): do naught to others which would cause pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517.

Islam: "Not one of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." The Prophet Muhammad, 13th of the 40 Hadiths of Nawawi.

Jainism: "One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated." Mahavira, Sutrakitanga 1.11.33.

Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it." Hillel, Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

Sikhism: "I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed, I am a friend to all." Guru Granth Sahib, pg. 1299.

Taoism: "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." Lao T'zu, T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.

Unitarian Universalist Association: "We affirm and promote respect for the independent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principle.

Zoroastrianism: "Do not to others whatever is injurious to yourself." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29.

Native American Spirituality: "We are as much alive as keep the Earth alive." Chief Daniel George.

Baha'i Faith: "Lay not on any soul a load that you would not wish to be laid upon you and desire not for anyone the things you would desire for yourself." Baha'u'llah.

Buddhism: "...Treat not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." The Buddha, Udana-Varga, 5.18.

In ascending their individual mountains of faith toward the same holy sky, the religions of the world have not only aspired to the divine but apparently their common humanity also.

Nomad, your line of questioning is simply dishonest. You can't use scientific logic in matters of faith. Stop being an @$$ and dissectiing the morals of a nomadic era. Can't believe you call yourself a nomad in the first place when you are so doggone lost in the common humanity of mankind.

Muslims in Islamic forums are known to ban anyone who posed sufficiently difficult challenges to their beliefs. So here we are seeing you support only one sided perspective of a religion and ready to cast insults upon those who will not be sheeps. Gullible and fawning indeed.

Continuing...

I find it amusing that my criticisms of Islam earned me the condemnation of being 'judgemental' and a mini lecture on tolerance via copy/paste of pithy sayings while you ignored the obvious fact that religions demands their followers to be judgemental and that devout religionists of all stripes are the most judgemental of all. Let me quote someone you admired and expressed her judgement of YOU...For the ummah, anyone who is NOT a muslim is an 'evil' person in the fullest sense of the word. You need not murder anyone or boil infants for dinner or engage in the most depraved of sexual acts but all you have to do is refuse to believe in Allah, that Muhammad is his messenger and do not recite the shahadah in order to be judged as an 'evil' person. So why are you fawning over someone who has already condemned you to Hell? Or why have you not recite the shahadah and become a muslim? Care to tell us here what is it about Islam that make you hesitant to convert? May be it is because that Islam is not so good for women after all as samsparky claimed?

I would think that those who considered themselves 'intelligent' people would be the first to realize that of all ideas in this world and given recorded history, religious ideas should be the top of one's list to be critically examined and questioned. I challenge you to examine the last few pages of this debate and point out to ALL where have I referenced Christian polemics to criticize Islam. I would think that 'intelligent' people would ask themselves that if Osama bin Laden is not practicing the 'true Islam' as claimed by Islamic apologists, then it would be logical to conclude that the sources for bin Laden and his ilk could not have been derived from Christian or Hindu or Rastafarian exegesis, then what else is there but Islam as the source? If the Christian Bible is not immune from interpretations then why should the Quran be exempt? Because the muslims say so? So far, samsparky have not managed to reconcile this ONE contradiction in her faith...Quran 2:256......And Sura 7:93......And......My question remains unsatisfied: If there is to be 'no compulsion in religion' as stated in Q 2:256, then why should there be compulsion to remain in religion, as in Sura 7:93 and in the hadiths of Bukhari, where we see Muhammad persecuting 'disbelievers' and a muslim leader ordering the murder of an apostate? Do you really think that this type of mentality is of a bygone era? Think again -- In Lahore, Pakistan, Nashir Ashraf, a Christian stone mason took a drink from a fountain reserved for 'all poor people' and was beaten by muslims for polluting 'our glass' and the muslims called him a 'Christian dog'. Muslim bystanders encouraged the beating because they believe that such encouragement would further help them earn a place in paradise. Ashraf was beaten unconscious and ended up in the hospital with a broken collarbone. There should be sufficient keywords there for you to execute an online search to see for yourself. So is there something in the Quran and/or the hadiths that could give muslims reasonable cause to believe that through the persecution of non-muslims they could secure a place in paradise?

In the US, a performance artist once displayed a crucifix immersed in his own urine and called the piece 'Piss Christ'. Christians were offended but nothing really happened. It was art only in the most abstract and was really nothing more than a man with little artistic talent making a living through shocking people. But here is what happened when Islam is criticized through mere caricatures of Muhammad...



samsparky has so far avoided addressing the issue of Salman Rushdie and Cat Stevens, aka Yusuf Islam. Care to pick it up?

You can embark on a debate with religion all u want if you follow the Golden Mean, i.e. don't insult if you do not want to be insulted. By calling others gullible and fawning for being members of this clan on this public forum, who's cast the first stone?




So, here's a girl who makes a quote from the ancient book of the Qu'ran and you judge her to be what? A murderer? A Torquemada? Christianity went through the same convulsion before it decided to let its theocracy disintegrate into sectarian divisions. And guess what?

'Retail Christianity' is all the more in-your-face than Islam ever is today. It's proliferating with the same sort of 'judgmental' and 'intolerance' about 'evil' and 'goodness' in people who do not subscribe or convert.

Please don't harp on the misguided notion that threats from a bunch of fanatics are representative of the muslim world-at-large. That is the realm of real-politiks, where religious tenets have been twisted to conduct an inquisitiion-style war over resources - oil - not souls.

The leader of the free-world uses the same sort of pithy sayings such as 'axis of evil', 'freedom' and 'democracy', 'our way of life' to conduct psuedo-religious wars abroad too.




I have grown up in communities where we lived with muslims side-by-side. Never have I ever felt a compulsion to convert, nor have I been made to feel as an evil person. Only these 'Retail Christians' as you call them in another thread do that - on the buses, in the shopping malls, school play grounds etc etc....

You asked if Islam is not good for women after all? Based on what? That it promotes polygamy instead of monogamy?

How many societies do you know ARE TRULY monogamous in reality even though it proscribes bigamy/polygamy? According to the last count done by evolutionary science, (the The Ethnographic Atlas by G.P. Murdock), there are 849 human societies of which

137 (16%) are monogamous
4 (1%) are polyandrous (females having more than one husband at a time)
708 (massive 83%) are polygynous (males can have more than one wife)!!!

Historically, in overtly monogamous societies like ancient Rome or medieval Europe, polygamy lurks under the surface too! How many rich noble men (not far different from the sheikhs of the deserts) had a de facto harem of female slaves or housemaids or their tenants' wives and daughters? What about the priests? Notionally celibate but sexually prosmiscuous?

Now in the modern society where political correctness reigns. You with the distaste for sexual inequality, what makes you think juz cuz you got a GF or wife, you aren't likely to have other sexual partners in your life? Get off your high horse about monogamy, for goodness' sakes. Just look at the USA for instance, in the state of Utah, with the Mormons.... are they are officially monogamous...?

You need to take the blinkers off your eyes and stop that nasty habit of yours that your logical conclusions are dogmatic truths.



What do you want the likes of Samsparky to do? Denounce their faith based on the mis-interpretations of the Quran by one deranged fanatic like Osama bin Laden?

Can you do the same - denounce your secularism if someone tells you GWB has mis-interpreted the Constitution of the United States?




You could cite a hundred thousand incidents of muslim inspired discrimination, and one can cite the same number of christian, buddhist, hindu, sikh etc..etc..inspired discrimination incidents.

The common humanity in mankind is we all commit the same follies.

Stop mounting verbal or written crusades..



Why can't you live with folks who want a certain boundary to the freedom of speech and expression? A few centuries ago, that same perforamce artist would have been garroted for blasphemy.

So, now we know there are limits to the muslim mind and soul. Should the division between 'Us' and 'Them' perpetuate? What do you wanna do? Convert their societies wholesale to secularism through a military venture?

We don't even see a desire on the part of muslims to convert your society to islam, except for a bunch of fanatics who have abused the tenets of their teachings and want the 'infidels' (a.k.a. western military forces) to leave their lands.

Why are u thinking along the same lines as these fanatics?



What is your agenda, nomad?

^ None whatsover.

I find u verbally and intellectually more attractive.. extra hour my man

Today I asked the chairman of darulfatwa about A'ishah.

He said the marriage contract took place when she was 6. She used to play with a doll because she was not yet pubescent at that time. She became pubescent at 9 and the bodies of females at that age back then were more mature than 9 year olds today.

Had this not been the case, the blasphemers of Prophet Muhammad's time all over the world would have used it against him. But they couldn't because in that context it was normal.

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Muslims who know their Religion properly did not support september 11.

They did not physically attack anyone when the cartoons were released. What they did was boycott.

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Yes: It is those damned wahhabis that come up with theses figments of their imagination and prohibit the woman from driving or from showing her face or speaking.

wahhabis say covering the face is an obligation. Muslims say it is something optional.

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