It is important for Indonesia to have strong ties with Australia. Australia is a large Western nation with an advanced economy and has significant influence in global affairs. On the other hand, I think Australians perceive themselves as being more powerful than they really are. Little Taiwan, for example, is roughly as powerful as Australia and has a larger population. So it's good to have Australia as a friend, but Indonesians shouldn't place too much emphasis on them when there are other rising stars in the region.

I think most countries percieve themselves as being stronger then they actually are. I would like to think that Australia and Indonesia are friends not only because of economic benefits. Although this is important, we are also neighbours and have many common intrests. Weather a country is "stronger" or "weaker", I wouldn't want any country using their strength to influence their neighbours. There will be times where Aust will be in a position to help Indonesia as there will be times Indonesia will be in a position to help Australia. I hope all help will be reciprotated with friendship.

I wish there were times when countries didn't use their perceived position of strength as a way to coerce their neighbors, but history has shown us that is very rarely the case. The Corby case is an example where the Australian population was deeply angered by the fact that Indonesia finally took a step toward a functioning legal system after the fall of the New Order.

As Purnomor pointed out previously, what you see on TV is sometimes biased both in Indonesia and Aust. Most (but not all) Aust feel that if she commited the crime, then she really should do the time. Most Aust are not angered by the Colby case, personally as an Aust I'm embarassed by her familys actions in Indonesia. What you probably don't know is that most of her family have had drug convictions against them as well as other offences. So I hope you will understand that when you see their behavior, you're not seeing the best of Australians. Most Aust feel she deserves what she gets, we're sad for her but if she did the crime she does the time. Everyone living in Aust should know SEA member countries stance on drugs. My feeling is that she should be grateful she's not facing the death penalty. In her favour though, I'm pleased to see that although she can apply to have her sentenced served in Aust, she has chosen not to. My feeling is that you should serve your punishment in the country you commited the crime in.
Personally I don't think Aust can coerce Indonesia and vice versa. I think both countries are aware of issues in their neighbouring countries and take steps to be sensitive towards those issues, the Papuan refugees is a case in point.

Crocodile Hunter Tewas Disengat Pari


BRISBANE, SENIN- - Steve Irwin (44) yang dikenal sebagai Crocodile Hunter ternyata harus mengakhiri hidupnya di laut. Ia akhirnya tewas setelah disengat duri ekor ikan pari dalam sebuah insiden saat membuat dokumentasi di sekitar Karang Penghalang Besar, Queensland, Australia, Senin (4/9).

Salah sendiri...kalau terus mengganggu binatang...

OMG...I am sad as he is quite exceptional in handling animals

exceptional....he's only disturbing animals....

I agree he went abit over the top when handling animals I thought but on the otherhand from what I understand alot f the profits he made from his companies he put back into the environment.

Four more Bali nine members to face death
Wednesday, 6 September 2006. 16:10

The director of the criminal division at Jakarta's Supreme Court has confirmed that four more members of the Bali nine have been sentenced to death.

After a day of confusion, clarity has come from Zarof Ricar.

He says that the court had agreed with prosecutors and annulled the earlier decisions relating to the three men known as the Melasti three - Tan Duc Thanh Nguyen, Si Yi Chen and Matthew Norman.

Mr Ricar says their 20-year sentences have been replaced with death penalties.

He also says the court has agreed with the prosecutors' appeal against the life sentence of 19-year-old Scott Rush.

Rush's sentence has been increased to death by firing squad.

The four men have the options of judicial review and presidential clemency still open to them.

while some rejoice to this conviction/sentence as a stern warning to those drug smugglers wannabees, we should also ponder when the bali blast terrorist were given a 18 year life imprisonment sentence for the bali blast. Where is justice when terrorist are given lighter sentence compared to drug smugglers??

And best part, during indonesian liberation anniversary, some of those terrorist are given a reprieve. how pathetic and where is indonesia in fighting terrorism??

Cheers to Victoria Bitter & Tooheys New!

Although in principle I agree with you, however it is still up to each country to set their own laws. Irrespective of what happens to alleged terrorists, the law in Indonesia on drugs is the death penalty, so the Bali 9 really should have known better. It is not up to us as foreigners to questions their laws but when we visit their country we have to respect them. WRT to the reprive I would hope that foreign prisoners would have the same access to pardons as local prisoners. Having said that the history is that death row inmates convicted for drug trafficking have never been pardoned, this is as far as I understand.

In Singapore they have very similar laws against drug traffickers and alleged terrorists as does Indonesia.

i'm quite aware that majority of asian countries do have similar laws and regulations and views regarding drug trafficking and such~
i think indonesia was rather more lenient than some other countries.. in singapore, don't they straightaway perform the 'death penalty'?? without having any further investigation or such thing as 'court' session?? anyway.. i think .. yes, every country has its own law and regulation and everyone should respect that. it does get really tense and more complicated now , hasn't it.. comparing to previous years.. since somehow.. lately, there have been a lot of cases regarding tourists or comers to indonesia ... with this drug trafficking issues.. -.-"

Not true, Singapore has the same judiciary system as in Australia. They also have the Presidents pardon which is similar to what they have in Indonesia.

Doesn't Singapore have a "mandatory death sentence" for all drug smugglers?

Yup, but I'm also fairly certain that they can be pardoned by the president but, like Indonesia this rarely happens.

You have an option to seek the pardon but it never happens in the singapore history but I think its similar to Malaysia and Indonesia. However, its true what purnomor says whereby in Indonesia, more time are given for you to deliberate the matter in court.

Can I ask something, what is the law in dealing with terrorism or murder on the 1st degree in indonesia, malaysia and singapore?

I imagine first degree murder must be mandatory death sentence since it's premeditated. Even if it's not premeditated, manslaughter also earns you a death sentence too.

Do you think Indonesia is kinda of lax on terrorists cos this is due to the government's need to garner the muslim votes?

I think in Malaysia, owning a gun or having a live bullet is also subject to the death penalty.

Interesting, some naughty Aussie journos try to play around with Indonesian law and got arrested

Silly to think they could sneak into a country with 5 people.

Still in an ideal world, they should be allowed to report as long as they report accurately and without bias.

^ They are free to report should they apply for permit.

Is a permit easy to obtain?

^ I don't know, but no matter whether it is difficult or not, Australian and other foreign journos must apply for permit. They have no option in this matter.

I agree, they should have at least tried to appy for a permit. One of the questions to ask though is that would the journalists be given the freedom to do their job.

I understand that a jorno from the Herald Sun was given a permit to be in Papua some time ago. I didn't read his article personally but, I haven't heard of his reporting being limited by the Indonesian govnt either.

LOL, this story turns out into a classic hilarious Aussie brouhaha..

tanga, doc, purnomor,

when I deliberated on the issue of terrorism vs drug trafficker....the focus went to the uniformity of each country punishing the drug trafficker of which everyone is aware of that. Later it was focused on murder, a cheesy bit of terrorism, having guns and so forth.... which also, carries the death penalty

But no one ask why the same death penalty was NOT given to terrorist when the law say, it is also punishable by death and that Indonesia gave a reprieve to one of them?

The perpetrator of Bali Bomb I were given the death sentence, while the perpetrator of Bali Bomb II were mostly shot dead by police during anti-terrorist raids. But, I agree, the court should give death penalty more often to terrorism convicts.

Mas, whats the thing about abu bakar bashir that the court failed to convict him.When he was released, I was guessing because the govt was afraid of the threats that will come if he was convicted and as what tanga says, the muslim votes...

Firstly, the terrorist bombings are committed by two Malaysians, Dr Azahari (dead) and Noordin Mohd Top, while ABB's involvement with the bombings is far from being proven. Secondly, evidence suggests ABB actually opposed terrorist bombings in Indonesia which is not a war zone. ABB said he approved of suicide bombings in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Palestine which is a jihad zone against infidel enemies, but he opposed suicide bombings committed by the Malaysians in peaceful Indonesian soil.

The govt might have had a deal in which Bashir will use his influence to get potential jihadists away from Noordin Mohammad Top's influence, instead telling them to blow themselves up in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I actually agree with purnomor here, there was no concrete evidence as far as I understand to suggest that the terrorists involved in the Bali bombings "sought the approval" of ABB, he was either not directly involved or smart enough to make sure that his direct involvement could not be proven. I don't know about him opposing terrorists attacks in Indonesia but, culturally Bali is quite different from the rest of Indonesia. From my understanding ABB actually got a harsher sentence then normal for the crimes he was found guilty of something not everyone in Aust actually realises.

Having said that, the fact that the Malaysian terrorists were able to hide out in Indonesia for so long before being caught would suggest that at the very least they had symphatisers in Indonesia, who had to be organised to some extent because from what I understand they moved house quite often when hiding from the authorities. There was also the bombing of the Australian embassy in Jakarta to consider.

Finally from my understanding although the bombs were made by Malaysians who were the masterminds the people who carried out the attacks were suspected to be local Indonesians. The Indonesian authorities from what I can understand have worked hard at catching the people responsible.

What ABB wants is an Islamic state of Indonesia based on shariah. The Bali and Jakarta bombings have turned-off many Muslims from Islamic law and severely damaged the prospects for sharia. That is why ABB is oppossed to the bombings which is sabotaging his efforts for implementation of Islamic law.

Makes sense. ABB hasn't been much in the news here, has he been in the news much over there?

Haven't heard much recently about "terrorists going ons" ie no recent arrests etc. You don't expect breakthroughs very often, this type of investigations I understand take a long time but could it because because its not a problem anymore or is it because "potential" terrorists are just lying low for the time being.


Whenever I think of this, I think, what an idiot, how stupid were they to try to sneak into a country, all five of them claiming to be tourists with all their recording equipment. I'ts embarassing how stupidly concieved their attempt was.

Not really.



There were some terrorists arrested a few weeks back and a shootout which killed two of Noordin Mohd Top's key aides on April.

Not just some terrorists --it's almost an entire support cell for Noordin Top. Revealed in the arrests also important informations on new key players and some operational methods.

RI-Australia Saling Curiga




JAKARTA, KOMPAS - Meskipun Indonesia dan Australia bertetangga, namun hubungan kedua negara tidak selalu mulus. Masyarakat kedua negara memiliki persepsi negatif satu sama lain.

Demikian hasil survei mengenai pandangan publik atas kebijakan luar negeri kedua negara. Survei dilakukan The Lowy Institute pada 19 Juni dan 16 Juli 2006 yang melibatkan responden dari Indonesia dan Australia. Hasil survei dipaparkan Ivan Cook dan Allan Gingell dari Lowy Institute, Selasa (21/11), di gedung Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Jakarta.

Berdasarkan hasil survei itu, warga Indonesia memandang hubungan dengan Autralia tidak hangat dan tidak juga dingin. Persepsi yang sama juga muncul di kalangan warga Australia. Mereka berpendapat hubungan Australia dengan Israel lebih hangat dibandingkan dengan Indonesia.

Warga Australia menganggap Indonesia masih dikontrol oleh militer (6,8). Mereka memandang Indonesia sebagai sumber terorisme Islam yang berbahaya (6,5) dan mereka melihat Indonesia sebagai ancaman militer (6,2).

Angka di atas menggunakan skala 0-10 di mana 0 berarti sangat tidak setuju dan 10 berarti sangat setuju.

Sebaliknya, warga Indonesia juga khawatir Australia sedang berupaya memisahkan Papua Barat dari Indonesia (6,8). Mereka menganggap Australia terlalu banyak mencampuri urusan Indonesia (6,7). Warga Indonesia juga menilai bahwa kebijakan Australia terhadap Indonesia dan kawasan sangat ditentukan oleh sekutunya AS (6,6).

Sejumlah akademisi dan tokoh yang mendengarkan hasil survei tersebut mengaku sedih dengan persepsi negatif terhadap masing-masing negara. "Setelah sekian lama berhubungan, kenapa persepsi publik kedua negara masih negatif seperti ini," kata Hadi Soesastro, Direktur Eksekutif CSIS.

Untuk mengubah persepsi publik yang negatif itu, para akademisi, berpendapat, kedua negara perlu meningkatkan hubungan antarwarga. (BSW)

December 19, 2006



Australian gets 4 years for sexually abusing 4 boys on Lombok
MATARAM (AP): An Australian man was sentenced to four years in jail on Tuesday for sexually assaulting four boys on the Indonesian resort island of Lombok.

Donald John Storen, a local hotelier, sexually abused the boys, ages 13 to 15, after promising them money and other inducements, presiding judge Ida Bagus Putu Madeg told a court in the island's capital, Mataram.

"The victims suffered trauma and the community as a whole suffered anxiety as a result of his crime," Madeg said.

The 58-year old Adelaide native denied any wrongdoing and said he planned to appeal.

In 2004, Australian William Stuart Brown was sentenced to 13 years in jail for molesting two boys on the tourist island of Bali, west of Lombok. Brown committed suicide by hanging himself a day after he was sentenced. (**)


Four years....a sentence far to low......he has to get minimal the double for abusing little kids....

US to build military base in Australia
Reuters | Feb 16, 2007


CANBERRA (Reuters): The United States is to build a new military satellite communications base in Australia, the government said on Thursday, after three years of secret negotiations between the two allies.

The new base will relay signals and intelligence to U.S. forces in the Middle East and Asia from Geraldton, 400 km (248 miles) north of the West Australian state capital Perth.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer told parliament the base, construction of which will start in months, would help underpin the close Australia-U.S. alliance.

But Greens lawmakers warned it would become a target for extremists.

"It will be hosted in the same basis as all other Australia-U.S. joint facilities and operate on the basis of our full knowledge and our full concurrence," Downer said.

The United States already has bases at Pine Gap, near Alice Spings, which provides early missile launch warning for Asia and the Middle East, and Northwest Cape in Western Australia, which carries signals to U.S. nuclear submarines in Asia and the Pacific.

There is another facility at Geraldton which intercepts mobile telephone signals and communications from Antarctica to Siberia, siphoning intelligence from Asian countries.

Greens Senator Rachel Siewert said the new base would be a prime target near one of Australia's major cities, Perth, which has a population of around one million.

"We're virtually talking about a Pine Gap on Perth's doorstep and I think the people of Perth and particularly the people of Geraldton should be very concerned," she said.

The minority Australian Democrats said the government was assisting a U.S. defence policy which was "deeply misguided and aggressive".

The alliance with the U.S. and the war in Iraq are shaping to be key issues in elections this year, with recent polls showing 62 percent of Australians oppose the government's handling of the war.

There are around 1,400 Australian soldiers in and around Iraq.

Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said Canberra was in discussion with the U.S. about other facilities, including a link to the US military weather satellite network.

The U.S. has also been given approval to store weapons and supplies in Australia's north for American forces based in Asia.

This just demonstrates that the people of Indonesia and Australia need to work at becoming better neighbours.


I agree, recognising this as a problem, Australia now has laws against its citizens going over seas to abuse children. So if Indonesia were to send him back to Australia he could be persecuted under our laws eventhough the crime was commited overseas.

Yes we do. Both countries need to work on a better relationship. But alot of Australians just seem to go out of their way to annoy Indonesians. Futhermore it is becoming politically incorrect to support Indonesia thanks to the Papuan Liberation movement. 'Indonesianists' are an endangered species in Australia.

Reading the article posted by Kopassus it is evident that the citizens of both countries are misinformed about the other.
Look at the examples he gave, Australians believing that Indonesia is still a military regime, that Indonesians are dangerous terrorists. In reverse, Indonesians believing that Australia supports the independence of West Papua, Indonesians believing that Australia interferes in Indonesian affairs. Now if you want to nit pick you could say that all of the above statements were true but we should all know that generally none of the above is true. Most Australians are not as the Indonesians believe and most Indonesians are not as the Australians believe. We are neighbours and we should be friendly towards each other.

The ignorant belief held by Australians about Indonesia (being a military regime or being dangerous terrorists) are definately wrong, but Indonesian perceptions that Australians meddle into our affairs and are sympathetic towards separatism are definately correct. So, the misinformation problem between the two countries is strictly one-sided, deriving from the Australian side.

It is with great saddness that I must agree with you. I love Indonesia and I love Australia. I want to see a healthy relationship between the two nations but the situation is as you have described it. It breaks my heart that this is so.

The strength of support for the Papuan rebels cannot be underestimated. Just try a websearch on 'west papuan liberation' and you will see how many websites this group is running. They have the support of the Democrats and the Greens (liberal left parties) and both affluent and poor who support that side of politics. This is a worry because that group is the moral concience of Australia and are the ones who get mobilised to protest and run campaignes. I can't talk with these people without them feeling the need to express their objections to Indonesian control of Iryan Jaya. It has become a popular cause.

Then there is extensive support for the rebels in the various churches. I've noticed articles in support of a free West Papua in church newsletters. This used to be just the extremist Christians but it has spread to most Chruches now. Howard himself has Christian extremist connections. So another component of Australia's moral concience is against Indonesian's political integraty.

Another problem group is Australia's young, politically minded Muslims. Many support Hizb ur Tarhir. HTI would like to overthrow the Republic of Indonesia and establish an Islamic state. When questioned about their views on Iryan Jaya, they say they don't support Indonesian control of that provence as Indonesia has a democratic government. Clearly they are at odds with the main stream in Indonesia.

Finally, there are the Rednecks and the media, but we know about them already. It has become very difficult to express support for Indonesia in Australia without being chastised and lectured. Infact it has got to the point where I have to keep my mouth shut for fear of offending people.

Indonesia does have friends in Australia, but we are an endangered species.

Pur & Fox,
It is not unreasonable for some Australians to think that Indonesia is still under military influence. Compared to other countries, in the recent past, the Indonesian military has had undue influence over the Govnt of Indonesia. Indonesian army officers(or ex) have in the past and still hold high govnt positions.
Australians have also specifically been targeted by terrorists in Bali, sure you could argue that the bombs were the mastermind of Malaysians but, who carried out the bombings? And what about the attack on the Australian embassy in Jakarta? It is definitely wrong to think of Indonesians as terrorists but based on what has happened it is not unreasonably to think why some Australians do but, this just stresses the point I'm trying to make that we need to be more understanding.
Has Australia meddeled in Indonesian affairs? In my opinion, no not really. If you talk about East Timor, although it was Australian troops who went in, it was still under the UN umbrella. The vote for independence also the UN, infact an agreement between Indonesia, Potrtugal and the US. Weather or not you believe that atrocities were commited by Indonesian troops in East Timor is up to you, in my opinion on the balance of probablilities I believe yes as does most of the rest of the world. Bearing this in mind the rest of the world could hardly stand back and do nothing. With regard to West Papua, what could we do when Wesr Papuan refugees arrive on our shores? It was not our choice that they come here. And as they did what could we do? We have already been criticised including on this forum of our treatment of refugees by sending them to "processing" areas. Furthermore, the Aust govnt has already said it does not support the independence of West Papua. The examples you gave of the Greens and Democrats, in every democracy, you will have people of differnt opinions, furthermore if there were no reports of alleged atrocities being commited there would be no calls for independence.
Purnomor, why is Australia definitely wrong and Indonesia definitely right?
Both countries need to be more understanding towards each other.
If Australians really believed that Indonesia really was a terrorist nation or controlled by the military, we would not have given million of dollars fort he tsunami disaster nor the Jakarta floods.

Swingdoctor,

I see what you are saying. Basically Australians are just human, like everyone else, and so we can be falible. When you say Indonesians should be understanding, I think you mean they should be patient and forgiving, like a teacher is with a docile student. I guess you have a good point. It would be nice if everyone in the world were more patient and forgiving. Perhaps Australians could learn to do it too?

I think you also have a good point about Australia coping the blame for things she is not responsible for. Perhaps we could expect our neighbours to be a little fairer in that regard.

However, I'm not sure you appreciate the gravity of the situation with the support of the Papuan rebels. Now, in addition to the websites I mentioned in my last post, there are TV advertisments and publicity stickers being distributed. There is no way the West Papuan rebels, by themselves, can be that educated and well organised.

A year or so ago, some Christian activists were handing out political fliers titled 'Australia Wake Up', calling for support of Christians not just in Iryan Jaya but also in the islands such as Ambon and the Moloccas. I know that there has been missionary activity in those islands, operating from Australia. Also, the first thing Howard did when he got office in 1996 was sell the transmitter (ex radio Australia) north of Darwin to a Christian fundamentalist group to broadcast missionary messages into Indonesia. There does seem to be elements in Australian society intent on formenting religious unrest in eastern Indonesia. This has been going on for over 10-15 years.

We do have a problem with religious political activism in Australia and I think it is time to recognise it and deal with it before it threatens our national security interests. The scary thing is, John Howard seems to be in on it and there is a connection with the right wing Christians in America.

There are human rights issue in Indonesia. But should we solve them though dirrect intervention or by supporting the appropriate elements within the Indonesian establishment to deal with them? We expect other nations to go though our human rights organisations and bleeding hearts to deal with issues like the situation of Australian Aboriginals, so I think we should behave the same way to other nations. A human rights issue is no excuse for an invasion.

It is unreasonable of us to ask Indonesians to be friendly toward Australia at this time. They would just be banging their heads on a brick wall. We must first acknowledge our problem with Christian activism and left wing idealistic bubbleheads and start doing something about it before we can reasonably talk about friendship. I feel that the Indonesians are quite right to be suspicious.

Dear Foxdemon,
In a democracy there will always be people who will have differing points of view. Will every Australian be completely satisfied with Indonesia, I would hardly think so but, would all Indonesians be completely happy with Australia, hardly likely either.
As long as there are reports in Australia of human rights abuses in one of our neighbours there will always be some who will be concerned and yes some will be politically active towards it. Me personally I hope Indonesia will sort out her own problems herslf, becuase if we had another East Timor, it would cost our country alot of money and we would be sending our soldiers into harms way. Neither of which I and I feel most Australians would want.
I know that someone here has mentioned about the ads for the West Papuan rebles, I've still not seen it personally myself, neither have I seen the flyers you mentioned, however, I personally wouldn't be surprised if this were true because it sounds like something that could happen here. Having said that you also have to remember that many Australians also helped collect money for the disasters that happened in Indonesia. So as there are people who suppor the rebels, there are also those who help Indonesia.
With regard to the Christian activities, I'm not sure what has happened because I don't listen to the Christian stations but I would assume that that was in relation to the abuses of the Christians at the hands of the Muslims and this was years ago. I read a report recently that some Muslim men were found guilty by the Indonesian courts of beheading 2 Chistian girls in their school uniform.
Australia and Indonesia are different in many ways, our culture and our thinking and how we approach things are different. Of all the things you mentioned I appriceate that Indonesians have grips against Australia, remember though that Australians have died directly at the hands of Indonesians.

At the end of the day though its this, we are neighbours weather we like it or not. We can continue being distrustful and harbouring anger towards each other or we can work towards forming a better relationship, it might take a while but the longest journey begins with the first step. Besides our govnts are working towards forming a closer relationship, why can't we as individuals.

Dear Swingdoctor,

You come across as a very reasonable person and I respect the approach to Indonesian/Australian relations that you are using. Indeed we are neighbours and we have to learn to live together. It would be wise to learn to live together in respect and cooperation. Your point about the lose of Australian lives is important. We should also remember the lose of Indonesian lives in East Timor (several Indonesian soldiers were shot) at the hands of Australian troops. Lets hope no more lives from either country will be lost in future.

Actually, three Christian school girls were decapitated, a fourth escaped. But there was outrage though out Indonesia at the event. Most Indonesian Muslims were horrified by it too. The perpetrators have since been caught.

The Australian missionary activity I mentioned preceeded the outbreak of sectarian violence in Eastern Indonesia around 2000. The Australian missionaries fled back to Australia when the violence broke out. Some point the finger of blame at the missionaries for inciting secterian tensions.

I just feel that my fellow Australians who like to stir up trouble in Indonesia are terribly irresponsible. As you say, though, Australia is a democracy. However, democracies do have laws. We have outlawed Australians going overseas and fighting as mercenaries. Maybe we could pass laws forbiding political or missionary activity in foriegn countries also?

We cannot afford a collapse of authority in Indonesia. It is not the most stable of countries and Australians ought to be more careful of the effect they have on Indonesia's internal affairs.

Once again, I commend your patient approach, trying as you are to get both sides to be reasonable. I think you are making a valuble contribution. But I also think that we need to admit our problems sometimes.

Dear Foxdemon,
I admit Australia has its own problems both internal and external as every country has both real and percieved. We need to accept that each country has its own problems and if we can help each other solve them and there will be things that each country does that the other country will disagree with but, we also have to accept this.
I'm sorry for any Indonesian soldiers who have lost their lives at the hands of Australian troops but, my understanding is that no Indonesian soldier was shot by any Australian soldier. The only news I have heard of this is of an Indonesian soldier shooting and wounding an Australian soldier supposedly across the border.
I agree that Australian missionaries should not stir up problems in any country they are in but, a missionary represents hir or her church/religion, their nationality is only incidental. As a matter of principle we cannot ban missionaries from leaving our country or from them coming in unless we know for certain that they are going to preach hatred. I'm unaware of any report of missionaries inciting violence in Indonesia and I would find this surprising as most of the violence was directed towards Christians. But again the main point I'm making is that Missionaries represent their religion, not their country. If they break the laws of the land they should be prosecuted. If they do cause problems, the govnt should ban them from entering Indonesia.
I agree with you though that we cannot afford a collapse of the govnt in Indonesia, an unstable Indonesia would only create problems not only for Australia, but all of Indonesia's neighbours. Indonesia's population of 700mil eclipses the population of all her neighbours combined, indeed 10 times the population of Malaysia, Singapore and Australia. So if there was a collapse of the govnt or civil war, none of Indonesia's neighbours would cope with the refugees etc.
Having said that this is highly unlikely to happen as Indonesia's govnt over the last 20 years has become more stable, more openly democratic and the military having a less influence over it.

Dear Swingdoctor,

There were infact several Indonesian soldiers shot on the boarder in East Timor. At least two, maybe three died. I'm not sure if an Australian soldiers were wounded in the firefight.

I thought Indonesia's population was around 300 million. That would be six times the size of Malaysia's, Singapore's and Australia's combined populations. But your point holds none the less.

Also, I think Indonesia has become less stable over the last ten years. There was the economic collapse of 1997, the riots in that year, Islamic militancy and sectartian violence between religious groups, the loss of East Timour, the separatist fighting in Ache, and now the trouble in Iryan Jaya. Things were definately more stable in the 1980's.

The way I see things, a collapse of authority in Indonesia would cause more problems than just vast numbers of refugees. The fighting would draw in global powers. The long term result would be one of the world powers gaining the upper hand and the nations of the region could well be reduced to colonies again. It would bring to an end SE Asian independence and set back regional prosperity for a very long time. This is why I think Australians who support West Papuan independence are being short sighted. The seperation of West Papua could well bring down the Indonesian government and set in motion the events I just decribed.

Anyway, our agument tonight does prove that Australians are concerned for Indonesia's welfare. So perhaps there is some reassurance for Indonesians in that.

The australian government seems to have this 'frontier mentality' when it comes to its relationship with asian states like Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia. Frankly, their present government is no different from the Bush administration in this respect. They see themselves as a vanguard against some kinda insidious threat or being overwhelmed by the mobs from asia. You could see it in their corporate outmaneuverings too, not just the religico-political moves.

The aussie govt seems to be at pains to distinguish themselves from asians.

The thoughtless promotion and export of democracy and free markets in places like West Papua is a prime example of how this could lead to ethnocentric nationalism and disastrous consequences such as the unleashing of genocidal sentiments amongst the indigenous populations over there.



It's like here in the Horn of Africa, so many christian missionaries and NGOs in Southern Sudan promoting democracy and rule of laws etc... amongst the tribes and clans, as a sort vanguard against the north Khartoum government. The islamic wahabbists and al queda are on the other side of the fence flaming the islamic value system, and now the chinese are providing the weapon supply in exchange for oil futures.

The animistic southern sudanese have been fighting a civil war with the Arab northern sudanese for the past 20 years now, and their warlords have not made peace anywhere closer in sight. War clouds are looming in the horizon once again for these folks.

Sometimes, people there say they already forgot what life was like before the civil war began. they have forgotten what living in peace is like. after 20 years of tragic war, chaos, disruption, destruction to their lives in their clan units, villages, families, rituals... they no longer know what the business of living is about.

Let's hope the West Papuans don't get suck into this sort of cycle of violence by themselves.

Or by proxy of others..