Should Indonesia give up Irian Jaya? Why?

And does anyone here think that Indonesians soldiers didn't kill/torture/assault etc any Papuans? Hey even I know the media and etc can bull$hit bigtime!

this Question is as stupid as a spam.

Hell No

so is your comment.

Of course not. Papua and West Irian Jaya provinces are integral part of Indonesia according to two UN resolutions and based on a UN-supervised referendum (Act of Free Choice) in 1969.

lolz. ofcourse there is no such Indonesian that would like its land be torn to pieces like the USSR. if we wouldn't want papua then why whould we make riots?

No way.....
Not in my lifetime....
Nggak bakalan deh....

Indonesians would never want our country to be torn apart.....

Fair enough. Just wanted to see peoples opinions.

I too think that Indonesia should keep it. I too believe the other countries just want it for their own greed.

AS I mentioned in another thread there was a pissweak protest here in Perth. I did yell out what I said in the other thread and I would like to have more info on the subject if challenged by these hippies from rich families who's great grandparents probaly contributed to the genocide of the Aboriginal race and stealing of their land and etc. The funny thing was that the only people attending the protest were mostly teens dressed in skateboard gear, hippies, druggies and other uninfluencial and undesirable types.

who vote yes? that guy is just crazy/Sinting or from another country, He's probably jealous becuz the Indonesia Gold mines are in west papua. I wish Papua would be called Irian jaya again

This is useless poll anyway, It is already Integral part of Indonesia and acknowledged by UN. Do not make assumption Irian Jaya case would be similar like East Timor. No countries would take it away from Indonesia since they know deep inside for Irian Jaya case if any countries dare messing around they will get lesson from Indos dearly.

Well duh, ands if any poll here is going to make a difference.


East Timor was part of Indonesia too wasn't it? I'm not making any assumption...people are already comparing this with East Timor. Your living in a dream world if you think not.



Wow, I hope your not talking about what I think your talking about. Anyway, Indonesia military are peaceful -rolleyes

East Timor was not acknowledged as part of Indonesia by the UN



If any foreign country try to intervene in Papua, Indonesia will exercise its right of self-defence to the maximum. In doing this, Indonesian govt will have the full backing of the 250 million Indonesian citizens.

Has Indonesia's population gone up to 250mn already? I tot it was under 200mn!!! Gosh!

Whatabout the accusation made that the referendum of Act of Free Will was not really fair justice to the Papuans, mas Pur? Can u tell us the Indo side of the story please? Thx!

What was the weak protest about? Independence for the West Papuans?

It's good that you take an active interest in the politics and look at both sides of the arguments with scrutiny.

In 2005, according to CIA Factbook, there are 242 million Indonesians. By the end of this year, there will be more than 250 million Indonesians.

That accusation you mentioned are baseless and reflects complete ignorance of history. The 1969 referendum "Act of Free Choice" was done according to 1963 New York Agreement between Republic of Indonesia and Kingdom of Netherlands, and was fully supervised by UN team lead by Bolivian diplomat Fernando Ortiz-Sanz. The result was duly acknowledged by two UN resolutions.

The integration of Papua into Indonesia is perhaps the most legitimate in history of the world. In comparison, for example, union of Sabah and Sarawak into Malaysia never went through any referendum at all. The people of Hong Kong was also never consulted on whether they want to be "returned" with China. If these other integrations were considered fair, then integration of Papua into Indonesia is the most fair and justified in recent world history. Papua and West Irian Jaya provinces are thus rightfully an integral part of Indonesian motherland. Indonesia will never allow any dismemberment of the motherland, and any internal or external group seeking such separation will be dealt with by our government and military with full backing from the entire 250 million Indonesian people.

exacly no!!!
why is howard being so greedy??
australia is rich enough!!
don't be like USA..!!!!!!!!!

Papua skrg menjadi 2 propinsi?

Yeap, ada propinsi Irian Jaya Barat (ibukota Manokwari) dan propinsi Papua (ibukota Jayapura). Rencananya akan dibuat propinsi2 baru seperti Irian Selatan (ibukota Merauke), Irian Jaya Tengah (ibukota Timika), dan Irian Jaya Utara (ibukota Biak).

I dun think Australia really needs Papua gold....Australia alone exports minerals and metals worth $200 billion a year...that's more than what the whole of Indonesia GDP/year...

The gold and copper mine in Papua (Freeport) is the largest gold mine in the world. I don't think your figure of Australian metals export is right, since Australian total GDP is only $642 billion, which is nearly $300 billion smaller than Indonesia's.

^Hmmm......from what i ave red.....no GDP in ASEAN exceeds $200 billion...maybe u used diffrent kind of GDP estimation....... coz as far as I know Austrlia's GDP is $400 billion ++...

To help Irian Jaya and Papuan provinces to catch up like others provinces, we need more people from densed populated island like Bali, Java and Madura which a lot of resources of highly skilled labour coming to these 2 provinces to help for further development. Hence secure Indonesia position in case any attack in this area from inside and outside.

But this transmigration policy sounds like what China is doing to Tibet and Xinjiang province, they are crowding out the native muslim and tibetan buddhists with han chinese population.

That is politically and economically the best thing to do to secure the borders of China, but is that morally good thing? Does it make China legitimate rulers in the eyes of the local populations?

does australia has interest in Papua too?



funny that rio tinto's top executive is now john howard's chief scientist, just reminds me of g bush's d!ck cheney

If Australia's GDP is 400 billion and its metal exports alone is worth 200 billion per year, that means Australia would've experience proposterous 50% growth rate p.a. The reality is, Australia's growth is only 2.5% per annum. It is clear your statement is false.

Indonesia's current GDP: $901.7 billion

Australia's current GDP: $642.1 billion

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html



Transmigrants from other parts of Indonesia has transformed Papua into rice-bowl of Eastern Indonesia, while almost the entire provincial economy is run by transmigrants, who now already made-up more than 50% of Papua's population and more than 60% of West Irian Jaya population (which is why separatists are making so much fuss now, as their separatism's future will die once transmigrants outnumbered native Papuans). Without these transmigrants, Papuan economy would collapse and native Papuans would end up unemployed.

Dang, dun ever say I am wrong,pur

Indonesia's GDP in terms of Current Exchange Rate Method is only $158 billion and Australia's $378 billion,

The one you use is the GDP through purchasing power parity method......that's why I say, u used different GDP estimation...

http://aol.countrywatch.com/includes/grank...CER&vCOUNTRY=79

Maybe Papuans shd ask their representatives to imitate the Malaysian New Economic Policy to protect and augment their social and economic position. What do you think?

^ Malaysian NEP is a failure, as the average Chinese is still three times richer than average Malay. I don't think a failed policy like NEP should be followed.



You are wrong and your source is ancient, by PPP Indonesia's GDP is $901.7 billion, by current exchange rate Indonesian GDP is $ 270 billion.

duh....does not matter...at least i've explained my point......at least i dun go telling other people doing false statements and go attacking other countries suddenly...I'm outta here anyway...

Pur, perhaps without something like the NEP in Irian Jaya, your average transmigrant from Java will be richer by 300 times above the average Papuans? Wouldn't that be a bigger failure?

The Aussie's GDP by current exchange rate is larger in size than Indonesia's.

That presumption that average transmigrant is 300 times richer than Papuans are ridicilous. I don't know how much is difference between income of transmigrants and native Papuans, so do not engage in empty speculation!

Indonesia already inject Rp 1 trillion per annum to Papua anyways, so I am sure there are lots of rich native Papuans (maybe limited to the political elite due to corruption).



But by PPP Indonesia's GDP is much larger than Australia's.

Of course I am speculating! If you don't even know how the income standards in Irian Jaya is, who else will know?

BTW, why are u using PPP to compare the size of GDP between countries? PPP is juz a measure for judging a currency's true value. It is different from the current market exchange rate. In real currency rate, the GDP of Australia is still larger than Indonesia's.

An upwardly mobile lifestyle in Indonesia is more expensive to maintain than in Australia, don't you agree?

PPP measures GDP according how much goods can be purchased by the differing income levels in different countries. If Indonesia's GDP (PPP) is higher than Australia, while its GDP (currency rate) is lower, that means goods and services are much cheaper in Indonesia than in Australia.

We know that already without having to look at the GDP using PPP as a measure. And unfortunately, this means also that Australians are economically better off than the average Indonesian. Indonesians need to spend more rupiah out of their income just to buy the same service or good, which would only cost a fraction of an Aussie's income.

GDP using PPP measure is meant to reflect true purchasing power of different countries by taking into account the differences in living cost between countries. Using GDP (real exchange rate) figures distort the relative size of economies, particularly since living cost in poorer countries tend to be lower (e.g. US$ 1 spent in Indonesia can purchase bigger bundle of goods and services than in Australia). Hence, economists prefer counting GDP using the PPP method, which additionally cannot be distorted by exchange rate fluctuations.

Since Indonesia's GDP (PPP) is much higher than Australia's, that means combined income of Indonesians has bigger purchasing power than combined Australian income. That also means the size of Indonesia's economy is much larger than Australian economy.

That's fine mas pur, so long as you don't try to pass off the GDP PPP as GDP in real exchange terms like in the statement below.

LOL in which part I said that figure is GDP in real exchange terms. As I said, measuring GDP using PPP method is most accurate in comparing relative size of economies of different countries.

Where is your source?!

Look data for 2004:
http://www.theedgedaily.com/cms/content.js...e80a60-a5521aff

"The 9MP aims to narrow the income gap between Bumiputera and Chinese from 1:1.64; in 2004 to 1:1.50 in 2010 and between Bumiputera and Indians from 1:1.27; in 2004 to 1:1.15 in 2010"

Is 1:1.64 equal to 1:3 for you?

And that numner 1.64 and 1.27 for chinese and Indians was taken by combining Malay and other indigenous group which is in Malaysian constituion being called Bumiputera.

Income of Malay (Melayu) would be higher than Indians if others indegenous Bumiputera are not take into account who make up most the lowest income among Malaysia citizen and the gap to Chinese income would be smaller than 1.64.

There are 11% of indegenous people in Malaysia from total of Malaysia population, hence it will make up almost 20% of Bumiputera. Basically any native SEA ethnic groups eventhough he/she is Thai or Filipino (for example) if become Malaysia citizen would be regarded as Bumiputra.

The federal government of Malaysia officially recognizes 28 ethnic groups as being "indigenous" or bumiputra:

* Kadazan-Dusun
* Filipino
* Serani (Orang Portuguesa Campur)
* Kwijau
* Murut
* Bajau
* Illanun
* Lotud
* Rungus
* Tambanuo
* Dumpas
* Bugis
* Mangka'ak
* Suluk
* Orang Sungai
* Brunei
* Kedayan
* Bisaya
* Tidong
* Melayu
* Indonesian
* Maragang
* Sino-campuran
* Sarawak-indigenes
* Filipina-campuran
* Orang Cocos
* Paitan
* Ida'an
* Minokok
* Rumanau

Off course no!

Ah...but weren't u comparing Australia's gold exports with their GDP? For such a comparison, i think Forrestcat was correct to use their GDP in real exchange terms.... correctum??

Incorrect, tante. Actually Australian annual mining exports is $28 billion, instead of $100 billion mr forrestcat mentioned.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lo...21?opendocument

RESULTS SO FAR:

17 (77.27%) SUPPORTING PAPUAN INTEGRATION INTO INDONESIA
5 (22.73%) NOT SUPPORTING PAPUAN INTEGRATION INTO INDONESIA

Sighz...whatever u say boy.. u are still dodging the correct form of GDP to use for comparison! Here I am trying to flog a dead horse. Forrestcat where are you??? Come back here!! hehe..

Me dodging what in a what what what..

hehehehe...

I GIVE UP! LOL!!

Papua should be not be given up. However, we as a nation have failed misreably with the Papuan and I am not suprised at the current distate on the Papuans on being part of Indonesia. We need to really work hard to prove to the Papuans that being part of Indonesia does not only mean Freeport taking the golds and sending the taxes to Jakarta while Papua is left in the stone age. Instead, we should make the Papuan strong by letting them keep a majority of the tax for their own development and spent as seen fit by their representatives.

No.

We all know that Papua and West Irian Jaya is part of our motherland. Why all the sudden UN resolutions said that Papua and West Irian Jaya is part of indonesia while they rejected east timor? Damn....I don't believe in UN $hit anymore.




I have so many papuan friends. They are pround being indonesians. It is just some stupid western people who want papua because there are so many natural ressources

no. indo might be corrupt in a lot of ways. but we're in this together. with that said, places outside of jave needs to starts tasting the fruits of indo richness as well. when equality becomes reality, there wouldn't be any talk of separation.

^ it is not that simple. those few papuans who talk of separatism are infected with toxic racism (as said by Australian Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone). they consider dark-skinned fuzzy-haired people like themselves as supermen, while the rest brown-skinned indonesians (which now made-up 60% of papuan population) as "vermin" to be extreminated. just read their websites.

Did u get the report today that HIV aids in Irian Jaya is rising at about 30% over the national average? Why is it getting so much coverage all of a sudden?

Papuans sentenced to jail over bloody protests against Freeport
JAKARTA (AP): An Indonesian court on Wednesday sentenced two Papuans to five and six years in jail over their roles in a bloody protest against U.S. miner Freeport last March, a lawyer said.

Selvius Bobi and Elias Tamaka were found guilty of using violence against authorities or inciting others to violence during the protest in May that left six security officers dead, lawyer Iwan Niode said.

The protest and Wednesday's trial took place in Jayapura, the capital of Papua province.

On Monday the same court convicted 11 protesters to jail terms of between five and six years over their roles in the same protest.

The protest was against New Orleans-based Freeport-McMoRan Copper and Gold Mine Inc, which operates a massive mine in Papua province that critics say pollutes the environment and gives little benefit to local people.

It ended in a violent melee during which a frenzied mob bludgeoned to death five policemen and an airforce officer. (**)