"According to U.S. intelligence reports, she was known as a skilled surgeon and protected by local resistance groups," he told the AP on a visit to Hanoi. "The documents indicate that she was targeted for capture or elimination to strike a blow at enemy morale. She already was a hero back then."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060403/ap_on_...war_diaries_lh1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vietnam War stories are always interesting.

During the Vietnam War, targeting enemy's physicians to cripple their ability to cure for the wounded soldiers was one of the major objectives of the U.S. The U.S with their hands tied behind their backs, deliberately bombed the hospitals of North Vietnam full of patients and doctors inside in an effort take out every physician that North Vietnam had. The death of Dang Thuy Tram was not a coincidence, she was on the hit list for quite a long time.

^And they fail, big time!

I admire her for her love of the country and her sacrifices but if she's alive today, I'm sure she'll be very disappointed with her many beliefs thru VC propagandas. Take Duong Thu Huong for example, she fought with her heart and she's alive after the War but ask her what she think of the Communist Party.

"She rages against the Communist Party for denying her and her mother party membership for years because of their "bourgeois origins." "The saddest part of the hardship is that I still have not found fairness ... still have not won the struggle with the bad traits which dishonor the members of the Party and break the spirit of the people who work at the clinic," says an entry dated June 15, 1968."

No wonder the Communist Party runs mostly by people who haven't finished 5th grade.

I read one part in her diary that during the raid at the temporary clinic, all the VC leaders/officers ran but she stayed with her patients.
"16.6.70
Chúng mình đang sống trong những ngày căng thẳng tột bậc. Bệnh xá đã bị đánh phá, địch tiếp tục uy hiếp dữ dội bằng đủ loại máy bay. Nghe tiếng máy bay quần trên đầu mình thấy thần kinh căng thẳng như một sợi dây đàn lên hết cỡ.

Không có cách nào giải quyết khác hơn là mình vẫn phải ở lại cùng anh em thương binh. Buồn cười thay đồng chí chính trị viên của bệnh xá từ chối không dám ở lại cùng mình trong tình huống này. Vậy đó, lửa thử vàng gian nan thử sức. Mình cũng đành chịu đựng trong hoàn cảnh này chớ biết nói sao hơn?"

I'm sure there are lots of people like her but too bad there aren't many in the leadership positions.

I got an email from Mr. Whitehurst few weeks ago:(2nd down the page)
http://guestbooks.fotki.com/thunder510/public/

I had a relative who was a very skilled surgeon and later joined the Vietminh at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. During the war, he worked for one of these underground hospitals, and was later interviewed for a history documentary. He survived the second war, became a personal physician for Ho Chi Minh, and had a street named after him in Hanoi, next to the medical school.

I wonder if those Russian anti-aircraft defense system is still operable.

cool story!
many intellectuals joined the Vietminh to fight the French but never want to join the Communist Party.

Well, it appears that my family pretty much disowned him and broke off all ties. He remained in the North, and after the war, he did not make an effort to help my father and uncles in avoiding the reeducation camps. Hence, the family bitterness.

I believe Vietnam now gets the latest Russian SAM (Surface to Air Missile) that can even shoot down UFO's!

I don't blame some of the people for joining the VC. Heck, if I was a young man then and get bombarded with VC propagandas, I might go to the other side and be a VC. Its the leadership with their ruling that I don't like.

In war time, Communist leadership used fanatics, lowly educated people coming from peasant class to insure absolute obedience to Party's policies and guidelines. They didn't like people who would question the party too much like Dang Thuy Tram. The leadership wanted to make sure all things 100% from top to bottom go their way. Not sure it's still necessary in peace time.

They're still using the same tactic in Vietnam, especially in rural areas. Majority of Vietnamese are in rural areas and thats where VC bombarded with their propagandas. The amount of propagandas in the country side is unbelievable compared to big cities. They still have loud speakers along the roads blasting "nhan dan" this and that, "on Bac, on Ddang" this and that every morning for hour a day. TV programs are ridiculous - they have "cai luong" singing about "on Bac".
And lot of people in rural areas do believe in the VC. I don't blame them. VC want them to be "blind" so they can keep on holding their power. Taking advantage to those nice people is sad....
and if you talk to city people about the VC, they would curse at them all day!


Lots of websites are blocked in rural areas too but not in the city. How do I know? I stayed in the country side for awhile before went back to Saigon few months ago.

When you go back, see it for yourself. Its like day and night when you observe how they control people with their propagandas between rural and city people.

Hey, everyone uses propaganda so don't be bitter.

Thank you for posting this story, guys. Very very heart breaking; my condolences to her family and to her! I pray for her.

Truly she Miss Dang Thuy Tram was a heroine, in my point of view.


*************SALUTE

One small nitpick to your very generous and kind post: a heroine is a female hero. On the other hand, heroin is the opium-derived addictive drug that gets people a death sentence in Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.

^Once in a while your posts make me laugh.

LoL. Yes, well you know what I was talking about.

Dang Thuy Tram was made Hero of the Armed Forces this week. Your courage and dignity was unparalleled. Hero indeed!!!

I suggest that even the average Vietnamese peasant was more cultured than the French or American trigger-happy invaders! Or the VNCH who worked as translators! Disgraceful!

True but the amount and propagandas VC used are ridiculous. They still teach Viet kids that America and capitalists are evil but look at what they're doing in the country. Plus they're really taking advantage of the peasant uninformed class with their propagandas. These propagandas are useless except to prolong the Communist Party life. They should use these energy to open the world to the peasants but of course VCs don't that to happen.

ridiculous propaganda? u mean Fox News is communist? no way, u're having me on!!! 2

if Barney doesnt like propaganda, i guess Barney doesnt like this propaganda either:

Nam quốc sơn hà Nam-đế cư
Tiệt nhiên định phận tại thiên thư
Như hà nghịch lỗ lai xâm phạm
Nhử đẳng hành khan thủ bại hư.

remember, Barney, that the thousands of pieces of television, newspaper, billboard ads are propaganda themselves. you cant avoid it, Barney.

Well, here is a peculiar observation. A few years ago while visiting Saigon for the first time, I noticed that my older cousins were quite friendly and had positive comments about the US. While my two younger cousins, around 17 yrs old, seem somewhat quiet, distant, and standoffish. At the time, I wasn't sure what to make of such unfriendly demeanor, but later I came to realize that perhaps my cousins possess anti-American sentiments and perhaps harbor hostile sentiment towards me. I have other younger cousins around 4-7yrs old and I'm afraid that when they grow up, they might turn out the same way. Last year, one of these cousins immigrated to the US, and when I confronted him, his excuse was that in high school, his history teachers only lecture about the greatness of communism and the evil of American capitalism. He described history lessons about the war, where poor peasants, old men, and women were shooting down American planes with rifles and capturing pilots with only pitchforks. These figures were depicted as national heroes over the evil American imperialist, who were just in Vietnam to kill women and children. They were also taught that South Vietnam was being oppressed and dying from starvation, and that is why people from the North had to liberate and free South Vietnam.

Quite entertaining, I must say, but such lectures should be given in Comparative Fictional Literature 101.

I was born and raised in Australia, a country with a fully-matured freedom and democracy. As I was growing up along with other kids in the VietNamese community, we've often been taught that Commies were the bad guys, in 1999 I even went to Canberra with a group of friends to protest Phan Van Khai's visit and proudly waving that yellow flag around.

But than I learn about the VietNam/American War at school, using textbooks written by Western historians, it highlighted the atrocities committed by American troops against Viets in the South. Not only that, seeing archive footages of American B-52 bombing Hanoi/Thang Long, the historic capital of VietNam make my blood boils. In the year 1010 Emperor Ly Thai To made Thang Long the capital of Dai Viet. It pisses me off to see foreign armies marching in my country and drop bombs on my country's capital. But off course, many Viets over here only b!tch and moan about losing VNCH on April 30, accusing ALL Commies of being traitors, moan about VC murders during the war but not taking into account their own wrong-doings eg. Pilot Nguyen Thanh Trung who defected to the VC because his father was murdered by ARVN.

I can't speak for Australia, but here in the US, the Vietnam War discussion in history classes openly criticize both sides. Yes, the discussion takes into account the atrocities committed by the Americans, the ARVN, and the Vietcongs, whereas in Vietnam, there is no open discussion among its students but just one-sided bias commentaries offered by the history professor. That is the major difference. At least with the Americans, they take responsibility and accountabillity by revealing the truth about failed policy and war atrocities, whereas in Vietnam, any failed policy or atrocities committed by the VCs were covered up and disappeared from the history books. Now which side is bias? Just ask anyone who studied in Vietnam if the topic of the Hue Massacre or North VN land reform (1933-56) were ever discussed or mentioned in their history textbooks...and you would be surprised. At least here in the US, atrocities like the My Lai massacre are mentioned in every history textbooks. As far as the bombing, that is no different from any conventional war thoughout the history of mankind. Would you tell the Greek, Roman, or Chinese armies to refrain from using arrows or catapults? If North VN had B-52s, do you think they would use them? Of course. But don't worry about Hanoi... it's still intact. If the US wanted to wipe Hanoi from the map, they would have done so a long time ago, but that was never the objective. The bombing only served to bring Hanoi to the peace negotiating table so that the US can withdraw from the war.

Yes, I will admit that there are those in this forum who are not well informed about the topic matter and their input consists mostly of bashing VCs and Vietnam. You should correct them if they are wrong, and only then will they become better informed individuals. But you yourself must become better informed, by looking at the topic from the American side, the North Vietnamese side, the South Vietnamese side, the Chinese side, and the Russian side.

OMFG.....I'm talking about Vietnamese Communist Propagandas,! Yes, commercial advertisement is one kind of propaganda but who the hell in here talk about commercial ads?

Here's from the words of someone who went thru all the schools in Vietnam and now is a "du hoc sinh vien":

"Chúng em được học những tư tưởng thù hận và nghi kị đối với các nước tư bản, phải tiêu diệt, đào mồ chôn họ chứ không được học cách sống chung trong hòa bình, hợp tác và phát triển. Ngày 11/09/2001, khi cả thế giới bàng hoàng và đau đớn khi hai tòa nhà WTC ở New York bị tấn công, em đã nhảy lên vui mừng vì « đế quốc Mỹ » bị trừng phạt. Tính « ác » trong người em trỗi dậy nhưng em lại cho đó là suy nghĩ đúng đắn, theo những gì được dạy dỗ. Đến bây giờ em vẫn không hiểu tại sao lúc đó em có thể suy nghĩ như vậy. Hiện nay, khi các nước tư bản đầu tư vào Việt Nam, bạn bè của em có những người trong các lớp cảm tình Đảng, có những người là sinh viên xuất sắc, họ lúc nào cũng nghĩ rằng tư bản muốn làm « diễn biến hòa bình » để lật đổ chính quyền nhân dân, bóc lột, đô hộ dân mình."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/vietnamese/forum/stor...ungletter.shtml


Even someone who grew up in Vietnam most of their life knows what VCs are doing to Vietnamese people but some of the dumbfu-ks in here don't know $hit.

you, barney, are just upset because we abused you. consider it payback time for all your crimes.

Thank you for a very insightful opinion, but whenever I try to look both sides some people just label me "VC" but screw them.

You're right. Name calling is counter-productive and deflects from the real issues. I would try to ignore all the rhetorics (ie. VC bashing, US bashing, etc...) and focus on an open discussion and perhaps learn from each other. If you read most of the postings in this forum, you will find less of a discussion and more of a shouting match between VNCH supporters, VN nationalists, and overseas Vietnamese. You will find the same level of rhetoric over and over again, on almost every topic matter. You will find people justifying bad examples with worser examples committed by the other side, and in any form of debate, such argumentative strategy is counter-productive and leads you around in circles and circles, and thus not really getting anywhere. Both sides are evenly stubborn with their shortsightedness and unwilling to move forward with thoughtful ideas of resolving the real issues.

What is this? I can't really tell

Tinman,

Its good to have you and blacklight in this forum. You two keep things in order in here. I try to do the same but this "Indian" guy keeps following me around making personal comment and calling me names. I couldn't keep my cool so I sometimes give him some spanking. 2 That Indian Arun guy is getting on my nerve. He would go in other people thread and make personal comment or calling name and goes off topic. You don't see any construction discussion from this "cari" guy. You two keep your cool and thats the sign of maturity. cool man

BlueLakeDragon,

Yes, I agree with you that Arun often resort to name calling and never offer any constructive input on the topic matter, and therefore I do sympathize with you. His comments are juvenile at best so I think he is still a kid trying to find his way in the world. I hope he will receive the proper guidance and become more open minded and objective in his thinking instead of continually perpetuating communist propagandas each time he opens his mouth. Perhaps he is a fine example of the byproduct of such political indoctrination, and it really scares me at the thought that my younger cousins in Vietnam might turn out the same way. If that might be the case, then I'm left with no choice but try to get my family out of there before it's too late.

A shot down UFO!

Another propaganda machine to uplift the heroic spirits for the insecured.

A Vietnamese version of Hollywood-style war movie to dampen the gung-ho spirits of the overconfident.

its all cgi put into communists propaganda

Barney,
i think i wont call you Barney anymore, even though it is such a cool nick.

as much as i hate VNCHs, i dont want to cause anyones blood vessel to pop, so i will leave all your anti-something topics alone. however, here is my observation: an anti-something topic from a foreigner is only successful if pro-Viet Nam people like myself get dragged into it. it is a lot like pouring fuel into a fire. lets face it: there is only so much agreement that you can repeat among your foreigner circle and it gets boring real quick.

lastly, i like to explain myself for the first and last time: i dont discuss with you, Barney, because i base my discussion on hard numbers, statistics, studies etc. (occupational habits) while you like to discuss it based on faith, past experience of a VNCH, and your personal observations, and YES, information you take from Communist source (ironic).

thats all, Barney. from now on, i will stay away from your anti-* topics.

Indian,

hahahaa My country, your country and now, I'm a foreigner?! Thanks for a good laugh, seriously!

This is a public forum and you're free to participate in any thread you want as long as you "behave" yourself. see forum guideline.

You're right, most of my threads are anti-topics. Do you know what are those? usually they are anti-corruptions, anti-poverty, anti-injustice, anti-crimes etc.... and if that make me anti-VC by your conclusion then be it.
What that says about you and the rest of the VC supporters?
Here's an easy math equation since you like to play with number:
For example, if I'm anti-corruption then I'm anti-VC and if you Pro-VC then does that make you Pro-Corruption? We haven't heard a voice from you guys on this subject. all I see is trolling from you. I hope thats not true but that what I'm getting from you guys. Vietnam is a DEVELOPING country and these all the things that need to be more developed and we are here to talk about them. Whoever's in power get the blame and is not VNCH. Corruptions, injustice, lack of democracy and freedom are hurting Vietnam and the people so its crucial to talk about them. You get my point, Indian?

Indian,

You say your discussions are based on "hard numbers, statistics, studies etc."? where? I haven't seen it yet. Here's hard facts for you:

1. Still one of the poorest: rank 108/152, just little bit better than some of the African countries
2. One of the corrupted: rank 94/143
3. Lack of democracy: rank 138/143
4. Lack of freedom of press: rank 135/143
5. Lack of economic freedom: rank 137/161
6. Political Rights: score 7/7 Lower scores are preferable.
7. Civil Liberties: score 6/7 Lower scores are preferable.
8. Human Development: rank 112/177
9. Growth Competitiveness: rank 77/104

i http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?...ountry=VN#rowVN
ii http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm
iii http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm
iv http://www.worldaudit.org/economicfreedom.htm
v http://www.undp.org.vn/undp/fact/basev.htm


Hey, if VNCH or Aliens is in power, I'd do the same thing. You should too if you care.










I thought I saw Jane Hanoi in the clip. Is it? I also notice VCs used women alot in their propagandas. You guys think so too?

okay, you are right. i am wrong.

It's not that simple and besides the point. I would like to see more constructive input and criticism instead of raving and ranting. There is enough of that on both sides already.

Another bittered VNCH. 2

I know it breaks your heart to see thousand and thousand of American aircrafts got shot down by the heroic Vietnamese people throughout the war like we just shot a bunch of flies.

Talking about "insecurity", you should watch Vietnam War movies made by Hollywood from A to Z and see them for yourself, considering the latest garbage called "We Were Soldiers".

Wow, are you sure it was thousands of aircrafts, and not millions or billions. Please go review Basic Math 101.

Well, I didn't make those movies, but at least I can distinguish the difference between Hollywood fiction and reality. Whereas with you, propaganda videos or testaments are accepted as pure facts without further questioning or critical analysis. And wasn't that Vietnamese actor in the movie "We Were Soldiers" scorned by the government and he had to immigrate. Talk about bureacratic insecurity. A bit of advice, stay away from Hollywood garbage and stick with "home-made" videos and movies.

Yes, it was thousand of aircrafts. Go review your Vietnam War history; taking a cheap shot at a statement won't change the fact.

TINMAN:

The US government acknowledged losing 2000 aircraft of all types including combat helicopters during the Vietnam War. The fact that the US government required the Vietnamese government to open up its military archives to help account for about 1600 US MIAs does dovetail with this acknowledgement since the overwhelming majority - probably upward of 90%, of US MIAs were pilots.

4000th U.S aircrafts shot down in Vietnam, F-111
http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/vietnamarchive/...mages/index.htm



If you read the book "Air War in Vietnam" by Phil Chinnery, the guy confessed that there were about 3700 fixed wing and 4900 helicopters were shot down.

SAMs took a heavy toll on U.S aircrafts, nearly 600 American pilots were held in the "Hanoi Hilton".

The Migs, SAMs, AAA inflicted a heavy toll on the American Airforce during the war.

Sorry to inform you, the number was about 8,000, including juicy B-52s!

The whole diary business was initiated by Americans who finally discovered their conscience, not propagandising communists, ok?