why not merge the philippines with brunei.

I agree with you

Can I just close this thread? What do you think, guys? We've discussed this before.

I honestly don't know why any Filipino would be concerned about Sabah at this point in the game. Seriously, as if getting Sabah would solve the countless problems in RP.

yes please its OLLLLDDDD!

Now its my turn. In reality Sabah was never part of the Philippines. It was given to the Sultan of Sulu in 1658 has a gift. The sultan of Sulu was supposedly

Anwyay, the sultan leased his part of Sabah in 1878 to Overbeck, an Austrian, for payment of rent. He was in partnership with a Dent, from the UK. working in China, who he later sold his rights too. But Dent who started the British North Borneo Provisional Association Ltd. to run Sabah broke the lease to the Sultan of Sulu by creating the British North Borneo Company in 1883 which was chartered by the UK. He had to get the Sultans ok. He didn't so lease broken but he still paid the rent.
Five years later when Northern Borneo including Sabah became an UK. protectorate the UK. foreign secretary at the time said that the Sabah owned by the Sultan of Sulu was a lease and not part of the UK.

When Sulu became part of the Philippines the Sabah claim also became supposedly part of the Philppines. Even the US contacted the UK. about giving Sabah back to the sultan. The UK. just dragged there feet. In same month the Philippines became Independent the UK. hurried to make Sabah a Crown Colony. Being a Crown Colony they could better protect Sabah. They were afraid the Philippines would reclaim there territory of Sabah. Then in 1962 the UK. gave Sabah to Malaysia after a so called UN referendum. That same year the Sultan gave Sabah to the Philippines to reclaim. The sultan just wants to be paid a fair rent of about 10 to 12 billion a year. He needs it for the poor ppl. of Sulu. Do you know how much Sabah is worth to Malaysia, it 100 billion. Malaysia takes 95% of it back to the Malayian Peninsula. They are also suppose to treat the Sabahian people much better and let them have more control has it was agreed to before they united with Malaysia but the Malayians have fixed it so they get there way. Just to let you know not all of Sabah is being claimed.

The following is the first paragraph of the lease translated:



So not all of Sabah belongs to the Philippines. Its mostly the less populated Eastern part of Sabah with at least one major city. So its a strip of land starting at the Pandasan River has far has the Sibuku river (some spell it Sibukun River). In-between its all the land from the coast up to nine miles. Its not the whole of Sabah. Plus islands off the coast which include Malaysias Spratly islands claim.

See map:


The Pandasan River is in the last upper yellow part of the above map which says Kota Beld. The river is located at the middle point of that district on the coast. Thats where the Philippines claim starts. From there go up and around until you get to the Sibuku river which should be in the green somewhere between Semporna and Tawau/Indonesian border. So from Padasan river to Sibuku river on the coast then nine mile in from the coast between those points.
It really isn't that big of a claim but has a couple of important ports and at least one big city.

One other reason why the Philippines should be give there part of Sabah is that 30% of Sabahs over three million ppl. is populated by citizens of the Philippines. The Malaysians only make up 11.5%. This could explain why Malaysian gov't. officials are trying to get rid of 80000 illegal Filipino workers. But did you read how bad they are treated.

This is news from 2002 but should be revelent today. Seems the Malaysian want Sabah to themselves. http://images.google.com.pr/imgres?imgurl=...ficial%26sa%3DG

The Philippines gov't. just because of that should get there claim back. At the very least the Phillipines gov't. should try to get the sultan of Sulu his 10 to 12 billion a year in rent. Anyway, if the Philippines gov't. doesn't do anything with time the Filipino citizens will be majority in the whole of Sabah.
Think with time Malaysia might break up but thats another story.

Well, Malaysians I think wanted it this way for the meantime....it still saves them a lot of money on the yearly rentals (they call it cession money). Sabah is the only member of the confederation right now that has no Sultan. Actually Malaysia can recognize a rightful Sultan from the Royal Family, a Filipino Sultan of North-Borneo (perhaps eventualy can have dual citizen). Just like the Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein which is politicaly under the German Federation but it's recognize symbolic head was the King of Denmark.....one problem to this would be, who is the rightful Sultan ? Jamalul Kiram III no longer lives in Sulu, he even did not make it #1 in Sulu on the last election, his brother Esmail II also claims the dignity but not completely accepted by members of the Royal Family...his entourage a few years ago was actualy ask to leave Sabah by the authorities. Even if one of the Brothers Jamalul III and Esmail II shall be officialy recognize by the Philippine government they have a nephew who became a crown prince (Rajamudah) in 1974 who has superior royal blood on both of them if the traditional law of primogeniture is applied.

Even if this was an old issue , Why would you closed this thread? This had been the isse which concerns the Philippines unless you act as the spokesperson of Malaya !

I just heard from a friend who just visited Sabah that most of the people there speak Chavacano the Spanish Creole of the Philippines and he saw many Philippine flags there.

Correction. There are four states in the Malaysian Federation that have no Sultan. They are Sarawak (Sabah's neighbor), Penang and Malacca. Those states without sultan have a Head of State whom are appointed by the government.

Sulawesi,Sabah and Orchid Island are culturally parts of the philippines

Thanks for the correction... it's interesting that Malacca was traditionaly a Sultanate and Sarawak was ruled by a white Raja (British Brooke Family) dynasty for hundred of years.

Since it was overran by the Portuguese, Malacca has no sultan ever since. The last sultan retreated to Johor to form a new sultanate there. As for Penang, it used to be a part of Kedah. However, it was sold to an englishman which the later handed over to British. That explains why it has no sultan.

Add to the list Palau, Marianas Islands, Guam , Saipan, Carolines and Yap islands -They were once under the jurisdiction of the Archbishop of Cebu

You are culturally part of us.

Not necessarily ???

^^Tell that to Suzuka00

[




Actually SULAWESI AND ORCHID ISLAND SPEAK a philippine language,the people of sulawesi speak a manobo-like language,while the orchid island speak a batanic one.

i doubt if sabahan wants to join the philippines. imposible.

hehe

get over it. they pay rent naman eh

Just 5,000 ringgit?

Philippine languages is spoken in the Philippines and throughout the entire Borneo. It is actually named "Borneo-Philippines linguistic subgroup" by linguists. Sulawesi is part of a different subgroup. However, anthropologists do confirm that in terms of culture, Philippines is closer to the Gorontalo islanders of Sulawesi. Orchid Island in Taiwan is one of the stepping stones of Austronesians to the Philippines and it speaks a language related to Ivatan - a Philippine language. Orchid Islanders belong to a tribe named Tao, and together with the Filipinos, constitute the Filipino ethnic group. The Tao remains the bridge between Filipinos and the Ami tribespeople in Taiwan, the progenitors of today's Filipinos. There are still Ami tribespeople in the eastern coast of Taiwan, though many have already have intermarried with the Taiwan Chinese and speak Fukienese (much like the Chinoys).

http://www.epilipinas.com/SabahClaim.htm

Another researched and exclusive article by the people of the www.epilipinas.com
PHILIPPINES' CLAIM


TO SABAH
A majority of Filipinos everywhere are wondering what is this Sabah claim
is all about. The Philippine history books, Malaysian's probably too,
have not mentioned about the Philippines' stake on the northern part
of the island of Borneo. On the other hand, the Malaysians maybe
furious that there are a lot of attention now being focused to that
part of the Malaysian federation to which they believe was theirs
since the British handed the territory in 1963.

What we are trying here is to bring an insight to this dispute based on
our researched of the various facts (or allegations) regarding this subject.
As Filipino Americans, our main concern in bringing about this article is to
tell that part of the history of the Philippines.

WHERE IS SABAH?

Sabah,is the northern part of Borneo. It is bordered by Sarawak on its
southwestern side, and Kalimantan (Indonesian Borneo) to the south.
Sabah has a coastline of approximately 800 to 900 miles and with the
South China Sea in the west and north, the Sulu Sea in the northeast
and the Celebes Sea in the east. Sabah's total land area is 76,115 sq km
(29,388 sq miles). Sabah's population is about 2.5 million. It is 1,961 km
from Hong Kong, 1,143 km from Manila, 1,495 km from Singapore, 1,678 km
from Kuala Lumpur and 2,291 km from Taipei - note that it is nearer to
Manila than Malaysia's capital of Kuala Lumpur.

North Borneo is much undeveloped and very rich in natural resources.
One of the wealthiest oil producing countries is located in same island
of Borneo, the tiny Sultanate of Brunei.

Learn more about Sabah through the links below.


THE LEASE STARTED IT ALL

The Sultanate of Sulu was granted the territory as a prize for helping
the Sultan of Brunei against his enemies and from then on that part of
Borneo is recognized as part of the Sultan of Sulu's sovereignty. In 1878,
Baron Von Overbeck, an Austrian partner representing The British North Borneo
Co. and his partner British Alfred Dent, leased the territory known as "Sabah"
- roughly translated as "the land beneath the winds". In return the company
will provide arms to the Sultan to resist the spaniards and 5,000 Malaysian
ringgits annual rental based on the Mexican dollars value at that time or
its equivalent in gold. This lease have been continued until the independence
and formation of the Malaysian federation in 1963 together with Singapore,
Sarawak and Malaysia. Up to these days, the Malaysians have been continuing
the rental payment of 5,300 Malaysian ringgits - a 300 ringgits increased from
original rent.

In 1962 during the Pres. Diosdado Macapagal's administration (the father
of the present president, Glorio Arroyo), the Philippines formally claimed
Sabah based on the Sultanate of Sulu heirs' claim on the territory. The
Philippines broke diplomatic relations with Malaysia after the federation
have included "Sabah". The sultan's heirs have given the Philippine government
the authority to pursue the claim legally in international courts. However, the
succeeding administrations have either have ignored or set aside the claim for
peaceful co-existent and trade relation with the Malaysians.

One significant incident involving then President Marcos have briefly brought
into limelight the Sabah claim once more. In 1972, the Marcos government have
been training secretly a group of Muslim Filipinos in Corregidor, an island
off Manila Bay, for possible intrusion in Sabah to pave the way to an armed
secession of Sabah from Malaysia. But upon knowing of the plans, the recruits
have mutinied and were eliminated except for one that swam the bay and was
rescued. The newspapers have called this incident, the "Jabidah Massacre"
named after the operation that was given by the military. The survivor divulged
the plan and the claim was put in back burner once more. It was believe that
because of the incident, the Malaysians have been aiding the Muslim separatists
against the Philippine government. Some people says this distracted the attention
to the claim on Sabah as the government was embroiled in containing the conflict.

LEGAL CLAIM BASIS

The claim was based on several historical facts and court judgement.

The lease agreement is definitely a proof otherwise there will be no basis for any
agreement if such ownership was not established at all. The contract was between Sri
Paduka Maulana Al Sultan Mohammad Jamalul Alam - representing the sultanate as owner
and sovereign of Sabah on one hand, and that of Gustavus Baron de Overbeck and Alfred
Dent, representing the British East India Co. (then became the North Borneo Co.), on
the other as lessee of Sabah, was executed on June 22, 1878. Though the British turned
over the possession and government of Sabah to the federation, the Malaysians have not
remissed in paying the annual rental.

The 1939 court judgement on the claim had handed ownership of North Borneo to the heirs
of the Sultanate prior to the formation of Malaysian federation in 1963. The judgment
of Chief Justice C.F.C. Makaskie of the High Court of North Borneo in the civil suit
filed by the late Dayang Dayang Hadji Piandao and eight other heirs of the Sultan of
Sulu, including the famous Putlih (Princess) Tarhata Kiram, upheld the validity of the
claim of the heirs.

Being a British colony did they favored the Malaysians than returning the leased
territory to its rightful owners as per 1939 court judgement? Did the British influenced
the outcome of their sponsored 1962 plebiscite to which won by those who wanted to
join the Malaysian federation than be an independent state. One also has to speculate
as to why did the British respected a similar treaty with China by returning Hong Kong
instead of conducting a plebiscite just like the one conducted in Sabah in 1962, is
the Philippines a weak nation that can be ignored? These are some questions that need
to be addressed by those who have the mandate to pursue the Philippine claim.

The Malaysian argument before the International Court (The Hague) is in the link below.
This is based on the islands disputed between Indonesia and Malaysia wherein the
Philippines is trying to intervene.

SO WHY THE REVIVAL OF THE CLAIM NOW?

In the last few months the Malaysian authorities have been deporting, we are not sure
if this is the right term for this action knowing the existence of legal claim to North
Borneo, thousands of Filipinos from Sabah for being illegals and for lack of necessary
documents. There are allegations of inhuman treatments and rapes by Malaysian authorities
which are currently being investigated by both governments. It is also good to point out
that illegal Indonesians are likewise being sent home through Kalimantan (Borneo part
of Indonesia). Both the Philippine and the Indonesian governments have protested the
mass deportation and have indignation rallies against the Malaysian action.

Since the time memorial the numerous ethnic tribes in the southern Philippines notably
the Tausugs and Badjaos have been traversing the Celebes Sea from Sulu to Borneo and
other parts of Indonesia. These tribes are sea faring people and settled from anywhere
around the region. To curtail these movements, the Malaysians have decided to demand
document from the Filipinos in Sabah. Undocumented Filipinos were deported and could
only be admitted back when there are necessary papers presented. This situation is
extremely hard specially to those who have fled the secessionist war during the seventies
and eighties as they are refugees and do not have any travel documents. These Muslim
Filipinos have considered Sabah as part of their domain as their ancestors have been
doing centuries ago. That part of southeast asia is bound by common religion, history
and people.

NOW WHAT?

As per official Philippine government stand, the Philippines will continue legal action
through the international courts and also by bringing this claim again to the attention
of the Malaysian government. One of the immediate objectives is to have the rent increased to
what is a more realistic amount while a claim is still being disputed.

There are apprehensions, as some quarters are claiming, that nothing will come out of this
revived interest in the Sabah claim, they are saying that the Philippine government officials
as in the past can be bribed to lose interest in the claim - there is no concrete evidence to
this effect. The Malaysians are hoping that it will die a natural death for lack of will on
the Philippine claimants to pursue further the claim over the years. The longer the dispute
is settled, the harder (or maybe lesser) for the claimants to get any settlement.

Will the heirs get a just settlement in form of monetary compensation? The heirs had been
offered money before by the Malaysians and have rejected the idea. Will the settlement comes
with some portion of the disputed land for displaced Filipino muslims in Sabah? In any issue
involving property dispute, possession is everything.

Will the Arroyo administration be transparent in negotiations with the Mahathir government
or some kind of a deal will be struck without consultations with the other parties involved?

We will see what will transpire in the future.


Related Sites:
Giving back Sabah to the Sulu sultanate By Noralyn Mustafa
The Sultan of Sulu's Lost Land by Manfred Rist
Malaysia's Stand On Disputed Islands
Ummahnews-an independent and non-partisan global media service
Sabah Tourism Site
Facts On Sabah

I hope we get Sabah. 76,000 km² is a lot of land. And the Philippine's needs it. Malaysia doesn't need it. They already have more land and less ppl than we do. Our population density is almost 300 ppl per km² , while there's is less than 90.

Did you guys ever ask any Sabahans about this issue? As far as I know, all my Sabahan friends, either muslim or non muslim alike, hate Filipinos in Sabah, and consider them foreigners, not their brothers. They said those Filipinos are problem makers and should be deported. Of course, at one time, some Sabahan leaders tried to absorb as many Muslim Filipinos as they can, for political reasons, a move that angered many native Sabahans. Sabahans enjoy higher standard of living than many states in Malaysian peninsular. The state (together with Sarawak) enjoy some degrees of autonomy. People from Malaysian peninsular must have work permit to work in Sabah and Sarawak. At one time, we have to use an international passport to enter those two states and can stay only for several months there. I think now the passport requirement has been scrapped, and we can just use national ID to enter Sabah (not so sure about Sarawak). Sadly, while the fellow Malaysians from the peninsular are not permitted to work or move to Sabah, the Filipinos keep flooding the states, either as refugees or illegal immigrants. So, deal with it. Sabahan would prefer to become independent rather than be part of Phillipines. Of course, it is not feasible now as there is no way Malaysia would give up Sabah easily.

wikipedia says that they have among the provinces poorest economies, where did you get that information?

Anyway, it wouldn't be illegal immigration if it belongs to the Philippines' to start off with (which it does).

Do you think people in the Philippines and Indonesia think that Malaysia is nice to them? Most of the people thinks Malaysia is a power grabbing country Sabah is being claimed by the Philippines while Ligitan , Sarawak by Indonesia

Have you ever asked any Sabahans that their First Minister is from the Philippines from the island of Jama Mapun (Cagayan de Tawi-Tawi) and was also a relative of the Sultan of Sulu.

Wrong, the first Chief Minister was Tun Donald (Fuad) Stephens, who was part Sabahan (of mixed ancestry, I think mostly Kadazan) and part New Zealander. The 2nd Chieft Minister was a Chinese guy, I forgot his name. The 3rd Chief Minister was Tun Datu Mustapha - who was a Suluk. Tun Datu Mustapha (and later Harris Salleh) was the one that open the flood gate allowing thousands of Filipinos into Malaysia, and naturalized many of them. The Kadazan Chief Minister Pairin Kittingan was one of the biggest opponent of immigrant from Phillipines.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong having a Minister with foreign ancestry as long as he/she is a Malaysian citizen. Sabah Chief Minister position pretty much has been in the hand of different ethnic group at one time or another. Look at the Prime Minister of Malaysia - Tunku Abdul Rahman - half Siamese, Tun Razak - Bugis Indonesian ancestry, Tun Hussein Onn - Turkish ancestry, Mahathir - half Indian, and Abdullah Badawi - half Chinese.

The native Sabahans are doing fine, thank you. Remember, 1/4 of Sabah populations are poor immigrants and refugees, dragging all the economic indication numbers down.

Malaysia is always try to be nice to other countries. We invited Sabah to become part of Malaysia, and they accepted.

it loooks like the invitations is no long welcome? huh.

oops...I mean first governor, he became Minister around 1967. He is one of the responsible why North Borneo now a part of Malaysia. A WWII soldier who escaped to Sabah during the Japanese invasion of the Philippines

Personally I don't care for Sabah or Malaysians in general. They have can have the goddamn place for all I care. Malaysians are an arrogant bunch and I don't want anything to do with them. fu-k Malaysians.

Invite Sabahans? Or illegally grabs them? Including Sarawak ,Ligitan from Indonesia ?

Sabah id the Philippine Borneo

If ever philippines should claim any area it should be
sipadan
north sulawesi
orchid island
sabah

if i were the Abu Sayyaf and MILF leaders, i would rather invade Sabah than to fight for the desolated lands of Bangsamoro
and then establish the Sulu Sultanate again.

as for the people of Sulawesi Utara, i would just let them to establish their own state... i know a large population of Christians live in northern Sulawesi

But the people of Sulawesi are technically filipinos and speak languages related to maranao,Manobo,Subanun languages and sangil.

But this begs the question..."sovereign rights" can only be granted to independent states. The Sultan of Sulu unlike the Sultan of Brunei is not an independent kingdom. So, the Sultan of Sulu must exist first as an independent entity apart from the Republic of the Philippines before it can be granted the "sovereign rights" of independent states. Were that to happen, it is so much easier and expedient for the Sultan of Sulu to confederate with Malaysia than to claim Sabah.

is sultan of sulu still existing, does he have descendants? maybe we could could use him to make an insurgency uprising in sabah hehe.

another war?

well in some ways it is better for them to fight there rather than here it would split up their strength and foucs them fighting on 2 fronts, then maybe we could get the malaysian military active and invovled the region and crush them from both sides of the front.

This is an interesting document

http://www.deped.gov.ph/cpanel/uploads/iss...20s.%202008.pdf

honstly, to hell with Borneo and Sabah. I think its all political d!ckwaving to make all politicians look good.

On the other hand, maybe a formal apology from the Malaysian government to the Sultan, if there is still the Sultan. Not to the RP Government.

(note apology here doesnt literelly mean I AM SORRY for all you asian speakers out here who have trouble with English. I mean Engrish/chinglish or anything, so dont jump in too conclusions blab blah of nationalist ranting and insulting another country. APOLOGY like the term used for CATHOLIC APOLOGIST means its confirming or making something clear etc.)

Why don't the 2 countries bring its case to the International Court of Justice (ICJ), like the case Malaysia vs Indonesia and Singapore vs Malaysia in the disputed islands?

However there is a risk that Philippines might probably loose as what had happened to Indonesia when they lost Ligitan & Sipadan Island to Malaysia and Pedra Branca was given to Singapore from Malaysia.

In 1963, the Cobbold Commission, formed by the British and Malaysian governments, determined that about two-thirds of Sabah residents wanted to join Malaysia. A United Nations mission sent to Borneo held a poll and made a similar finding. The Federation of Malaysia was established soon after. Sabah has also participated in elections as part of Malaysia since then.

Philippines claim gets thinner and thinner in term of legitimacy since 1963.

Just my opinion.

They say its Malaysia that does not want to bring the case before the ICJ. But some think Malaysia since they won against Indonesia (Sipadan and Ligitan islands) that they might win the case against the Philippines.

But the problem I would think would be that lease. Why would Malaysia pay rent to something they say they own.

With all this feet dragging, first by the UK. and now Malaysia the chances are very low that the Philippines will get Sabah. Remember, the Philippines claim is not all of Sabah. But with many Filipinos moving there you never know but things could change.

The people of Sabah, including the Pinoys over there, does not want Sabah to be part of the Philippines.

Why are you pursuing the claim for Sabah. There is nothing to claim if the people don't want too.

uhm have you even heard of us, the people actively pursuing or maybr I dunnoh protesting in some malaysian embassy to bring back Sabah...................

NO!

WHo cares, anyway. Besides, I bet, most of the common folk I'll ask here wont even know jacksh!t where Sabah is.

Seems most people could careless. But it seems these people want it back.

See Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVwErDFfRno...feature=related

Malaysia bribed the judges !