Philippines may use this fact as mere evidence to support their claim, but thats it.
It will not be sufficient to constitute as a basis or grounds of claim in itself.
IMHEO.

Yes the Sultanate of Sulu still exists and the Philippine government has done everything to support the Sultan in the Sabah Claim but unfortunately I think there is no hope especially when I knew that the new Sultan of Sulu Rodinood Julaspi is not that genuine and its very sad I think this Sabah claim must be dropped for now.

I think the Philippine government must concentrate on the Spratleys dispute which is also of great concern.

The big question is "Why is Malaysia still paying rent to the Sultan of Sulu?" meaning that there is evidence that Sabah is not Malaysia's but it belongs to the Sultanate of Sulu.

So what? Actually, majority of Sabahans, especially native Kadazandusun & Rungus plus Murut-Dyak tribes are native only to Sabah, not Sulu. Other ethnicities may have historical lienage with Sulu, but that's it. Ain't gonna do a jack to change Sabahans minds from becoming Filipino.



What facts? Where does it documented? From what we Malaysians know, majority of Jemaah Islamiyyah terrorists got basic trainings from South Filipino.

Hell, why would Abu Sayyaf crossed borders & kidnap foreigners in Malaysian Sabah's resort?

We symphatised with Moro's plights, but we ain't stupid to meddle into South Filipino's mess. Instead, Sabah was swamped with refugees back in 1970s & now illegal immigrants because Filipino Govt. was inefficient to clean up their back door in Mindanao isles.

When Nur Misuari fled to Msia after his final failed rebellion in 2004, the Sabah's Police ambushed & send him to ISA detention centre (reserved for suspected terrorists, fanatical political leaders or internal risks) in Peninsular Msia. Hell, for a while even MY Govt. don't allow his family to visit him. Plus we handed him back to you guys for trial in Philippines soil.

Ain't that enough?

Well, this would've something to do with academic achievements. Unfortunately, as many native Sabahan (the same case with rural Malays) students in rural areas whose results are only average. To enroll to local Universities, even for Diploma, one must have good qualification. Sabah's State Education Dept. should more to alleviate the problem.

My best advice, looked for MARA for education (IKM, Kolej Polytech MARA, UniKL, UiTM, Giat MARA + MARA sponsorship) & business opportunities for Small Medium Enterprise as with funds. MARA protects native Sabahan Bumiputra, especially in Sabah's state itself.



Ahhh, you're in bit of error there, mate. UMNO (the ruling party of BN coalition that administered Malaysia) has broadened its term of Malay to include non-Muslim Sabahan natives as Malays too. I was a bit surprised to know that nearly half of UMNO members in Sabah are non-Muslims, mainly from Kadazandusun, Rungus, Murut, Sea Bajau, Visaya & Sino-Kadazan. Given that UMNO is UNITED MALAY NATIONAL ORGANISATION representing Malay power in Msia, seems to me, those non-Muslim & non-Malay Sabahasn UMNO members is considered Malay too, even if its worked only for political reasons.

My best advice, cherished your state's autonomy. Your forefathers demanded that rights before joining Malaysian Federation. It has served to keep the rights of native Sabahan since Independence.

On that note, MY should do the same too. The problem is, Big Red China is towering over Spratlys claims.

The only solution, joint-venture development of the isles.

Nahhh, its trivial issue.

Sultanate of Sulu ceased to be an institution a long time ago.

I'll back the Sabahans right to remain with Malaysia.

Malaysia was the staging ground for two abduction cases by the Abu Sayaaf terrorist group in the past two years, but was not a focus of attention for either domestic or international terrorism investigations. In a recent report, however, FBI officials stated that Malaysia was in fact a “primary operational launch pad for the Sept. 11 attacks.” While Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad strongly criticized the report, he also admitted that police have identified about 50 Malaysians with al Qaeda connections.

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/sea.cfm

What im afraid of that one day there will be an Islamic State or what you call Jihad Archipelago that will incorporate Indonesia, Malaysia and Southern Philippines as one Islamic State and Sabah will be included. Sultanates will be disolved and it will be a cruel Islamic Government.

lol...
2

I assume you know why the mountain is called Kota Kinabalu......the Bornean wives really weep when the Tausug warriors nearly wipe all their males. In Kudat district and Sandakan the majority can speak Tausug. Take note I am refering to the population here only within the Dominions of the former Sultanate of Sulu as declared on the Lease of Agreement in 1879, from the boundaries of river Kimanis on the west and River Atas on the east.

Anyway, most of the heirs themselves are not interested in pushing the claim for North Borneo. I was telling them a few years ago of the possibilities that if they become Malaysians their title of nobility will be officially recognize by the government, being Royalty in North Borneo they could gain some priveleges which they could not get being a Filipino, they can have their own Istanah (Palace) and a new Sultan for North Borneo can be chosen among the legitimate heirs to act as symbolic leader (without political power)

Joint exploration among the claimants is now on going as we speak....so far Puerto Princessa is their port of call.

They are paying because of the Session Court of North Borneo decision in December 18, 1939 filed by Dayang Dayang Hdji Piandao (Daughter of Sultan Badaruddin II). The last check was payment for the year 2004 dated October 5, 2005 amounting to PHP 78,212.62 (the amount is an insult)

This money is distributed to the administrator of the original 9 heirs of the Sultan of Sulu, the descendants of Sultan Jamalul A'lam among his three wives.

are implying that we sabahans are stupid?
kidding. ok maybe u r right. (not that we are stupid, that our result is below par)
i still cannot fully agree with u.



will look into this though.




yes, of course they have to widen the term Malay in order to rule sabah peacefully
most of motives of non-muslims BP for joining UMNO have to be questioned tho'.
IMHO they are guided by either short-term or long-term benefits
offered by UMNO. this is a clever but dirty political tactic employed
by UMNO, which also i think has become a common feature of
sabah politics, perhaps also malaysian politics.
from what i know UMNO Sabah is a mere extension of UMNO.
so they act mostly under direct order from federal govt.
i just cant accept there to be any autonomy under umno.
Even if UMNO genuinely wishes to consider non-muslim sabahans as malays
this seems to me more like an attempt to hijack our identity.

I appreciate your advice. but i beg to differ with this issue.

Kota Kinabalu is the name of the city, capital of sabah.
the name of the mountain is Gunung Kinabalu.
from what i know, these tausug (or whatever clan)speaking ppl in sabah
are new/recent immigrants from philippines. not since the 19th century.
if they had been here since then, im quite sure they would be
malaysians already.
Their title will not be recognised
and they will not be given any Istanah.
come on. stop dreaming.

I am implying the ROOTS of their ancestry

Why do you say their title will not be recognized, are you the government ?
I hold legal documents that they were addressed by your court, ambassadors and ministers as Sultan, Rajamuda, Dayang Dayang, Datu, Sittih....etc etc.... I see Malaysian politicians come and go in Mindanao

You don't have first hand knowledge I assume

there was once an issue in malaysia whether the title 'Datu',
normally claimed by filipinos to be awarded by Sultan of Sulu or Mindanao,
would be recognized here in malaysia and the government said No.
to recognize such award/title would be like admitting
the sovereignty of such sultanate.
i thought the Philippine govt also dont recognize such award?
in malaysia we have the title 'Datuk' and this is a federal title
awarded by our Yang di-Pertuan Agong. this of course is recognized
and is distinct from your 'datu'.

As far as everyone in Indonesia and the Philippines is concern Malaysia is a land grabber

With the help of the commonwealth of course ... the malaysians can thank the british for this one.

FAQs on the ICJ Decision.




1. What is the nature of the case ?

It is a request for intervention on the part of the Philippines in the case between Malaysia and Indonesia regarding sovereignty over the islands of Sipadan and Ligitan. The Philippines requested to intervene in this case under Article 62 of the statute of the International Court of Justice because it is of the view that the decision of the ICJ in that case or its reasoning involved in that decision will adversely affect the legal interest of the Philippines as regards the interpretation and application of certain treaties and agreements which it relies on in its claim over Sabah.

2. Since the ICJ’s decision does not allow the Philippines to intervene, how does this decision affect the Pi claim over Sabah?

The ICJ decision does not affect in any way the merits of the Philippine claim to Sabah. The Philippines requested intervention in the case as a non-party. In other words, the Philippines, in seeking to intervene, did not intend to become a party to the case: between Malaysia and Indonesia. Its purpose is a limited one, namely, to have the opportunity to explain and show to the ICJ that its claim to Sabah may be adversely affected by the Court's decision or by its reasoning in arriving at that decision if the Philippines would not be given the opportunity to be
heard in the case between Malaysia and Indonesia .

3. Did the ICJ accept same points presented by the Philippines in the oral arguments?

Yes. As against the arguments advanced by Malaysia and Indonesia, the ICJ ruled:

(1) That the Philippine application to intervene still was filed on time;

(2) That despite the fact that the Philippine application did not contain a full list of documents in support of its claim, still the ICJ concluded that this did not constitute a formal defect; and.

(3) That the absence of jurisdictional link between the Philippines and the Parties to the main case (Malaysia and Indonesia) is not a ground
for disqualifying the Philippines from intervention. The ICJ recognized that the Philippines sought to intervene as a non-party and therefore does not require such jurisdictional link.

Above all, the ICJ accepted the hypothesis of the Philippines that to establish interest of a legal native, such an interest does not only
pertain to the operative decision of the ICJ but to the method of reasoning in arriving at that decision.

4. On what ground did the ICJ disallow the intervention by the Philippines?

On the ground that failed to show with “sufficient clarity” or “particular clarity” in what way will the interest of legal nature on the part of the Philippines would be affected by the decision and reasoning of the ICJ as regards the treaties and other agreements which the Philippines relies on in its claim to Sabah.

We are critical of this reasoning because it implies that the Court, knowing that the parties (Malaysia and Indonesia) refused to give the Philippines copies of their pleadings, would now require the Philippines to show in advance the full basis of their claims in terms of applicable treaties and agreements.

The Philippines is of the position that this requirement of the Court could have been met by the Philippines in the principal case had it been allowed to intervene and therefore would have had the benefit of the pleadings of Malaysia and Indonesia.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRESS RELEASE



International Court Denies Philippine Intervention, But Assures RP on Sabah

When Indonesia and Malaysia brought their territorial dispute over Sipadan and Ligatan islands to the International Court of Justice in 1988, Philippine officials were concerned about the implications of that dispute on the Philippine Sabah claim. It was suspected that the Philippine sovereignty to claim Sabah could be prejudiced by the arguments and submissions that would be made by Malaysia and Indonesia to the Court. Ligatan and Sipadan, made famous early last year with the notorious kidnappings of western tourist by the Abu Sayyaf, lie close to the Federal State of North Borneo. Philippine officials through Malaysia may take advantage of its legal dispute to consolidate its hold on Sabah. The fear was an argument from Malaysia which would establish its ownership of Sipadan and Ligatan on the basis of its sovereignty over Sabah.

To protect its interest in Sabah, the Philippine government in March this year, went to the International Court to seek permission to intervene in the on-going dispute between Indonesia and Malaysia. The Philippine legal team, headed by DFA Undersecretary, Merlin M. Magallona, argued the Philippine position last June in the International Court in The Hague.

In its decision dated 23 October 2001, the International Court found that the Philippine claim to Sabah will not be affected by the on-going case between Malaysia and Indonesia. The Court, therefore, declined to grant the Philippine request to intervene.

The International Court, in a landmark decision, explained that the Philippines has a heavy burden of proving the connection between its claim to Sabah, on the one hand, and the competing claims of Indonesia and Malaysia on Sipadan and Ligatan, on the other. And because the Philippines was not given copies of the Malaysian and Indonesian pleadings in the principal case, this burden of proof was even more difficult to discharge. The Court ruled that it was not convinced that the Philippine fear about a possible prejudice to its territorial interest in North Borneo was well established. Citing various international agreements that the Philippines had earlier identified to support its Sabah claim, the Court said that not one of these said agreements, including the famous 1878 lease of Sabah granted by the Sultan of Sulu, was relied upon by Malaysia and Indonesia in their respective arguments to support their competing territorial claims to Sipadan and Ligatan. In answering the major issue posed to the Court, the decision concluded that the Philippine claim to sovereignty in North Borneo “could not be affected by the Court’s reasoning or interpretation of treaties in the case concerning Pulau Ligatan and Pulau Sipadan”. In addition, the Court assured everyone concerned that it “remains cognizant of the positions stated before it by Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines”.

Commenting on the decision, Undersecretary Magallona of the DFA, expressed his relief on the Court’s assurance that the Philippine Claim to Sabah will not be affected in any way by the decision of the Court in the main dispute between Malaysia and Indonesia. “Our main objective was to protect the integrity of our historic title to Sabah. We have achieved that objective even if we were not allowed to intervene. So inspite of appearances, the decision of the International Court is really good news for us.”

Undersecretary Magallona also noted that the heavy burden of proof imposed on the Philippines in order to allow it to intervene established a new rule of international law. “No one knew about the level of proof that was expected to be demonstrated by the Philippines. Not Indonesia. Not Malaysia. Not any country. We believe that establishing a “prima facie” case was sufficient. There was no previously established rule that could have given us guidance on the level of argument and proof needed. But then the Court invoked a new standard that it applied to us ex post facto. This is usually how international jurisprudence develops.”

Undersecretary Magallona also congratulated the Philippine legal team on a job well done. “Each one of the arguments made by the Philippines, and specifically opposed or objected to by Malaysia and Indonesia, was upheld by the Court in our favor. Our arguments on matters of procedure or substance were upheld because they were superior to the counter-arguments of Malaysia and Indonesia. On the critical issue of burden of proof, neither Malaysia nor Indonesia, nor even the Philippines, had any idea about that issue. There were no arguments or counter-arguments on that point.” He concluded, “While we lost the battle, our case has led to a much needed clarification of rules of intervention in the international court, and in that sense we have helped advance the cause of the international rule of law. As a bonus, we have put on record a territorial claim to North Borneo, and the Court has assured us that it will not do anything that will prejudice this historic claim.”

HERE IS THE SITE;
http://www.dfa.gov.ph/archive/speech/usec/faq.htm

When ? Sultan who ? the last officially recognized legitimate Sultan died in 1986 leaving a minor Crown Prince, after that pretenders keeps popping up. Perhaps the title came from a fake Sultan. Sulu is an autonomous province as provided by our constitution, meaning, Titles of Nobility/ culture/ religion and claim to ancestral domain are supposed to be under the protection of the law, in Maguindanao/ lanao area there are more than a dozen titular Sultan although they don't have priveleges like in Malaysia.

Datuk is a title aquired by someone during his lifetime for service rendered or meritous deed and is not inheritable.

I believe that Sabah is a privately owned land by the family of the Sultan of Sulu. Ergo, it is between the family and Malaysia, not the Philippine Gov't and Malaysian Gov't.

Diba the Sultan of Sulu was the one who asked help from Marcos to claim Sabah and the present Sultan of Sulu is asking help from Gloria Arroyo to claim Sabah therefore since the Sultan of Sulu is a Philippine Citizen and according to the international laws it is between 2 nations the Philippines and Malaysia. I believe that the Sultan cannot claim a land unless it is represented by a nation in the present laws.

Nah. It would be more of a family claim than a national claim. There was a votation some years ago and Malaysia won.

Highly unlikely.

Never going to happen.

Impossible.

- The need for Sabahan education is paramount on the state's agenda. Now, Sabah has 2 universities catered mainly to Sabahans with University Malaysia Sabah (UMS) & Universiti Teknologi Mara (UiTM)- Sabah's branch. UMS has decided to increase intakes of local Sabahans starting last year & putting quotas on West Msian intakes.

- UiTM & affliated MARA education institutions all over the country has received additional fundings & increasing their intakes, including Sabah's branches, this year, following to the letter of protecting Bumiputra needs.



- I understand your grievance. But then again, what is the alternative except BN & UMNO, pray tell? For sure, it ain't gonna be Philippines Govt.



- We can always agree to disagree, mate. That's what democracy is all about.

The MY politicians go there for possible economic opportunities for MY corporates, but seeing that South Philippines is still unstabil, MY businessmen lose hope.

While we may recognised their title, we may not recognised their claim to take Sabah. As simple as that.

Given that the Sultanate of Sulu is considered a non-existing entity nowadays, the fate of Sabah will be decided not by ICJ, but ultimately referendum of Sabahans ... whose will of course to remain Malaysian.

This issue has been settled.....Sabahans wants to be Malaysians says the plebicite. Now, I proposed an idea to some of the heirs what if they'll become Malaysian and settle in Sabah for good, I got a big smile. Malaysia will of course compensate the family if the claim will be drop. There has been offers years ago.

Your Datuks visit our Datus, that is the heirs and they have no political power. Prime Minister Badawi even invite them to Kuala Lumpur......communication between your government and the heirs was not cut off, your embassy here keeps track of them. The claim is recognized by propreity and hereditary but the sovereignty remains to Malaysia.

There is no present Sultan of Sulu, Pres. Gloria Arroyo is supporting a pretender to the throne who is not even an administrator of the Estates of an heir. Although he is a descendant of the heir he belongs to a younger branch of the Royal family, and the law of Primogeniture states that the title shall only be pass to the eldest male.

As I have said, provisions in the 1962 Philippine North Borneo claim that if the Philippines fails to recover North Borneo in all peaceful means the Sultan shall be free to pursue the claim whatever manner he wishes. Now it's been 44 years.....

January 22,1878 - In exchange for US$5,000, Sultan Jamal ul-Alam leased North Borneo to the Hong Kong-based British trading company of Baron Gustavos von Overbeck and Alfred Dent and conferred upon Overbeck the title Datu Bendahara, Raja of Sandakan [K.B. Tregoning, A History of Modern Sabah/Agoncillo history of the Filipino People]

It is clear it was leased, by papers and history, Sabah belongs to the Sultan of Sulu, his successors and heirs. The House of the Royal Sultanate of Sulu want that recognition, that the sovereignty of Sabah belongs to them. In a way, it is yours because you annexed it and also as i read through, the people chose you over us. But for real, the land belong to the Sultanate, which is [the Sultanate], part of the Philippines. You can't dispute that fact. The land historically and legally belong to the Sultanate. Also it is a fact that your still paying your annual lease.

It was just so sad, why Filipinos are deported in the lands which in the first place they have the right to live in.

it's a lame excuse to grab someone's land by saying that since the people who settled in those land have already decided not to give the land to the owner/heir so the owner has already lose his claim over his own land.

it's like someone rented your property and then when he leaves the group of people who were staying in that property were told that they can decide if they are to give the property back to the owner or take the property as their own.

it would really be best if we just give it back to the sultanate of sulu. it belongs to them.

the best way to make philippines prosper in peace is to let go of sulu and let the tausug claim sabah back on their own. coz i'm sure and i've heard that they'll take it back after gaining independence from the philippines. it's up to them to decide if they want to be malaysians but i'v heard they hated the malaysians because of what happened to them in malaysia. many of those who were maltreated were also muslims and tausug. that is why they hated the malaysians. so, giving sulu back to the sultanate of sulu and the tausugs would be peace for the philippines but it might mean terror for malaysia. let the brave and proud tausugs terrorize malaysia till malaysia give back what they(the tausugs) believe to be their land.

double posts

sorry double posts.

long time ago the ppl of Sabah lived in peace,
despite the occasional headhunting
ppl lived in tribes and didnt have any need for governance.
they were self sufficient and lived in small communities
with minimal social complications. they farm and raise livestock.
everything was fine and dandy
until,...
the kingdom of brunei claimed dominance over sabah
then sultan from sulu, then the british, and lastly the malaysians.
Sabah belongs Sabahans
and we have chosen to maintain and affirm the status quo.
the way i see it,
the sultan of brunei has given to sultan of sulu something he never owned.
nemo dat quod non habet.
that means everytrhing else becomes null and void.

Of course, why would you give someone that he already owned ? you don't own it until it was given to you. Oh if the other way around, why would it called be a Dutch sponsored rebellon in the first place ?

Some descendants of the royal family nowadays are Sabahans, so you only speak for yourself....these people are mostly living in Sandakan, Kudat and Tuwau. When the Sultan first wants to claim Sabah from the British in 1958 it was the Taganak Islands (Turtle Island) that was turned over until the inventory of lands is completed. It was only 1980 that the person assigned to do inventory returned to the Philippines. The Malaysian acknowledges the propreity and hereditary rights of the heirs( but not sovereignty), that is why they allowed inventory of lands decades ago and still paying the heirs up to this day.....that is the fact and undisputed.

I think the Sabahan and Sarawakian vote to join Malaysia..
Not like Indonesia that grab Timor leste? or Maybe west Papua?
And the pilipinos that attack the Sulu sultanate during the spanish era.. watever..

Malaysia had land grabbed Turtle islands, Sabah from the Philippines , Kedah and Perlis from Thailand, Sarawak , Ligitan and Sipadan from Indonesia with the aid from the British empire and had forged the so -called election.

Have you being reading my posts?

Darn it to hell, drummed in your head that Sabah IS OF MALAYSIAN ENTITY!

Sabahans want to remain MALAYSIANS!

The rights of native Sabahans outstrip those Filipino immigrants!

Those native people of Sabah lived in the land before even Sulu Sultanate even exists!

Their rightful descendants chose to be MALAYSIAN, something those Sulu heirs suckers don't even think about!

Tausugs terrorists? Heck, let 'em come, let our brave troops stationed all along Sabah's coast with the help of native Sabahans slaughter them all should those terrorists ever come within Malaysian soil. We don't givva a damn to hostile forces hellbent terrorising Sabah, cause we're more than ready to protect, defend Sabah to the bitter end from foreign aggression!

Yes, some of the Sulu Sultanate's descendants are Malaysian. A few of them are quite active in Sabah's politics, but they sure as heck don't wanna become Filipino.

We still paying the rent, honoring the ol' agreement. But, to return the land, its up to the people of Sabah. The people of Sabah choose MALAYSIA!

Yes as I read through, the people chose Malaysia. The people are yours, but the land belongs to the Sultanate and that is irrevocable.

It is so difficult to pass judgement upon this case. If the people don't want to be part of the Sultanate, which is they are supposed to be, then maybe I think, agree to a new contract. By paying the lease according to the price in the modern value.
I heard it was 78,212.62 PhP which is way too low for an annual lease for that big land.

I must agree with Dimasangkay , The Malaysian government is still paying that amount to the heir of the Sultan of Sulu up to this date.

Its up to native Sabahan. Its up to Sabah state Govt.

MY Govt. pays according to contract. Thats it. The case had been referred to ICJ. The case is strong enough for MY to win hands down.

MY had the backing of Sabahan. In today's democracy, MY wins .... no question asked!

SO THAT MEANS, the Malaysian government acknowledges the right of Sultan of Sulu over Sabah and Turtle islands!

Sabahano's = squatters

Hell no!

We pay the darn fee cause we just want to honor the agreement, nothing less. Ohh, we pity them too. Is there a legitimate Sultanate of Sulu Kingdom? Oooops nope ... its the messed up Filipino backdoor!



Native Sabahan are not squatters. Their ancestors lived in Sabah long before Sulu Sultanate ever exists. Their rights overrode the Sulu Sultan's heirs rights.

That means their rights to remain as MALAYSIAN.

can't we all juz be frends? cheers mate!

Of course, no problem. My aunt loved watching Philippines soap dramas currently being aired in Malaysian TV ... what was it ... Sanay Walang Na Wakas or something like that ....

Legal Filipino workers, generally maids are very professional. They can speak English too, thank God - so my friend say, lah!

How do you know it is forged?