Long Live Republic of Vietnam




Down with Uncle Ho Socialist Republic

= monkey piss

ooohhh, very naughty separatist!!!
less naughty separatist

Who said that they are separatist? Uncle Ho and his communist party are the separatist here. They are Soviet and Red Chinese Lap Dog out to enslave the people of Vietnam and turn the contry into a third world that only recently started to open up and join the international community.

Uncle Ho was bouncing up and down excitedly in his rubber sandals at the prospect of nation-wide elections in 1956 but separatist Diem did not allow it in his little kingdom... VERY naughty!

Anyway, happy Unification Day!!!

Yes, happy Unification day, where the other half of the Vietnamese people joins their northern brothers in chains, which ultimately results in near famine, corruption and mismanagement.

I'm sure they're enjoying it.

Yes, it's true we faced extreme shortages in the past, thanks to - among other things - the separatists' support of economic sanctions.

Now we're doing alright - no thanks to some separatists' wish for the re-imposition of sanctions, and continued boycott of 'communist products' - whatever that is... presumably not just hammers and sickles!

Happy unification day

MILION OVER BOAT PEOPLE KILLED THAT BEGINING DAY
1975~1986 POOR HUNGER HOOD
BACKING TIME THOSE DEVELOP OF VIETNAM

Without overseas Vietnamese sending back billions of dollars and the US opening trade ties, do you think Vietnam will be where it is today?

Economic development is a credit to the millions of overseas Vietnamese and the USA, don't forget that.

Indeed, the remittance by overseas Vietnamese is larger than the sum of ODA. People taking vacations back there also help the country in countless ways.

But there lingers a small group of separatists who campaign against any improvement of relations between the outside world and Vietnam, and they continue to be anti-many-things. Sometimes, it almost seems like they even blame bad weather on the VC.

I hate the separatists, so stupid. Why do they do that protesting for??? Dont even think clearly. They are not gonna go anywhere in my opinion. Nowadays, when people think of Vietnam, they hardly ever think about the defeated regime. Trying to hold on to that is just dump.

The drive of Vietnamese economy is the capitalistic minded South Vietnamese people. Right after the Open Door policy began, they started to get back to doing business very quickly. The good economic performance of the region of South Vietnam then made people all over Vietnam wonder what is going on??? then they realised that it is the only way to go forward. And at that time, there was little or no communication between overseas Vietnamese and Vietnamese in Vietnam at all. Recently, there was a wave of overseas Vietnamese investment but compared to the total investment, it is ~0%. Instead of keep complaining about this and that, why dont they start to improve their community first? Give Vietnamese people a good name overseas in business and academic fields is same as telling other countries to invest in Vietnam, rather than drug dealing, killing native politician, street gangs, etc. Of course i recognised the contribution of some overseas Vietnamese because they did make significant contribution to the country they live in, but compare to other communities, they still do poorly. I hope they get better quickly.

The communists invaded the North then the South, why are you so happy that someone invaded your country???

I had always thought the invaders were French, Americans, etc. who called our people 'coon skin' and 'g@@ks' ... Now you tell me they were indigenous... Bloody VC propaganda eh!

Sorry about that, easy mistake to make

Hahaha... the word G-O-O-K was censored... wonder why that is... bloody VCs!!!

31+ years ago, this was what Viet patriots were doing in France.

What, the communists in question are not Vietnamese? HOW do Vietnamese invade their own country? By WHAT authority do YOU get the right to say who is Vietnamese and who isn't?

The anti-communist faction is a bunch of idiots. There is only one nation called Vietnam that was temporarily divided in 1954 so that the French could get the fu-k out and a national election in 1956 to allow the Vietnamese population to vote for their first President and the country to be reunited.

Still missing the global picture...oh well.

hey it was HCM that kick the French out after ww2 and the US would never have help him because their the french allias.
be side Present day Vietnam is doing alot better then it ever has i dont remember ppl have so much freedom in the South back then anyway.
That Catholic guy was going around killing phuc people and the monk begin to set themself on fire to prostest.

Haven't you also miss that the invader were also the commintern (Soviet Russia and Mao's China) who invade not only physically but also ideally importing communism that ruin the North economy?

The "separatist" is defined by the people who won the war. It's a really relative term...if South Vietnam had won, the North would have been separatist. So you Northern separatists, why did you want to go over to Soviets and the PRC instead of joining a democratic Vietnam. Tsk..tsk

So Vietnam is united now...you commmunists are doing such a good job managing the countries...what are you doing overseas Englanda...go back to Vietnam @$$hole and live like the common people if you love communism so much; no doubt you'll just try to join in the culture of corruption among the communist officials.

The anti-communist faction is a bunch of losers. So much for your anti-communist preaching/propaganda, no Vietnamese in the past 30 years has stood in front of a tank to die for your cause yet

How did the North turned communist? Was there a group of guys went to Moscow learned about communism and became International Communist agents and Ho Chi Minh was one of them? So, my question is did Ho Chi Minh fought the American which was the cold war enemy of the Soviet for Vietnam as a whole or for Mother Communist Soviet? It is the fact that VC used lies and propagandas to turned northern Vietnamese in believing that they were fighting to liberate south Vietnamese from the American slavery? which is not true, you know that and I know that.

Communists as in Soviet International communists. Did I say who's Vietnamese and who's not? I just said communists.

Give it a rest with your anti-communist propaganda. The Vietnam War started because of the Chong Cong idiots who refused to hold the 1956 national election. This civil war would have been prevented had the Chong Cong let the Vietnamese go to the polls. No election? That's fine but when the Chong Cong crossed the line by bringing in hundred of thousand of foreign dogs and let them roam free on the land of Vietnam to crush the insurgency inside South Vietnam that was when the North said "Enough is enough".

You might say the Soviets used HCM to advance their global communism and at the same time HCM used Soviet and Chinese power to advance his own agenda, that is a unified, "independent" Vietnam.

Of course some people would prefer HCM sided with the American capitalist camp to achieve his goal, and HCM did actually write 8 letters to US president Harry Truman asking for American help in winning independence against the French. Unfortunately, the Americans at that time seemed to value the French much more than a band of ragged guerrilas led by a half starved, tubercolosis infected goateed old guy.

It's funny many American scholars believed HCM was more of a nationalist than a communist. Even Joseph Stalin in the 1930's questioned Ho's loyalty with international communism when Ho in his reports to the Commintern constantly asking for Soviet help to liberate Vietnam from French Colonialism (Ho A Life by William Duiker). It seemed like all Ho cared for was Vietnam.

You could say VCP was a puppet of Soviet/Chinese, but at least they knew how to manipulate their "allies" in supporting them to achieve their goal. The same could not be said for Ngo Dinh Diem and Nguyen Van Thieu who could not even manipulate the Americans to support them to the end.

And the experience paid off for HCM, because he learned all about how to set up an organization that could not be penetrated by the French secret police, and in fact that could penetrate the French intelligence agencies. As a result of his Communist experience, HCM was one of the few if not the only leader in the Communist world who could speak to the senior Soviet and PRC leadership as an equal. In addition, as a founding father of the French Communist Party, he enjoyed and benefited from the respect of the senior leadership of the French Communist Party. Like it or not, HCM's experience and relationships made the Viet-Minh the only organization that could effectively oppose French colonial rule.




Like it or not, HCM fought for Vietnam as a whole but for unfortunately for a Vietnam under Communist rule. He could not have done so if he had not been successful in claiming the mantle of Vietnamese nationalism AND he had not lined up Soviet and PRC military support.




The American government seems to have been the godfather behind the scenes, both in sponsoring Diem and his confrontation policy and subsequently escalating the war in a way that disregarded the welfare of the Vietnamese people. The American government, in its arrogance, thought it had all the answers and all the know-how. This is the kernel of truth around which the Communist propaganda was created.

I remember that Russian leader (whatever the guy's name was) was quite "unhappy" about HCM because in the last few moments of Ho Chi Minh's life, he didn't mention the "great help" that the Russian had provided to Ho Chi Minh

As a Vietnamese, I do recognize the fact that the VCP included Stalinists, Maoists and similarly loathsome home grown characters, and I empathize with those who absolutely, positively do not want to live in a regime where these guys have a free hand. In fact, I wouldn't want any Vietnamese to live under such a regime.

The VCP, as it exists today, is a far cry from the VCP in the period up to 1985. Had the VCP not changed, I would have considered the VN government the "Hanoi regime" and remained among the more anal opponents of said regime.

If you wish to equate the USSR & China with the US & France with regards to Vietnam then I wouldn't want to spoil your day. Just out of interest, how many go,oks did the commintern kill? how many million tonnes of bombs? how many million gallons of Agent Orange? ... this phrase comes to mind 'bamboos of the southern mountains would not suffice the paper to record their crimes...' (trúc Nam Sơn không ghi hết tội...)

I agree with many things you just said there but not all fighting the French for independent were communists, most of them were nationalists. And HCM did a good job eliminated many of them to create his communist party. Therefore we can ask ourselves why can we use the American to advance our own agenda, that is modernized, unified, and "independent" Vietnam. Who wouldn't want that?


I believe HMC knew what the America stay for. He even borrowed part of A. Lincoln speech into VC constitution. Unfortunately, there was a Vietnam War, Soviets behind the North and the American on the South. And we know the results of the War. Russian was the second language for Vietnamese students. Cam Ranh was a Soviets base. Vietnam is still one of the poorest. Vietnamese have no freedom or democracy yet. So, what did communists "liberate" Vietnam from? If the Soviets have not been dead yet, we would not see any reforms that we are seeing today.

The fact that someone is a patriot does not automatically make him good news for his country: Chiang Kai Shek, Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, Kim Il-Sung and certainly Pol Pot were all patriots. As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. In the end, it must be results that count - not intentions good or bad.

Why would the commintern kill g@@ks? They are on the same side.
What is your point?

Given what the US/South VN knew about the death camps in Russia and China, and the balance of power during the Cold War, it is understandable why South VN did not want to fall under communism under such election. Again, you have to look at the global picture because everything is interrelated.

The VC insurgency was directly linked to Hanoi and even ex-Politburo members like Gen. Nguyen Vo Giap and Col. Bui Tin admitted to that fact, although Vietnamese historians, like Nguyen Khac Vien, are trying to revise history according to the VCP's distorted version for propaganda purposes. That is why there is a Mininstry of Propaganda in Vietnam.

I still think that HMC was an opportunistic communist. One thing that not many people talk about is that while HCM was in Moscow he must have seen and learned how Stalin ruled the country. Stalin was a rudeless mass murderer. He killed his own people by million. He blamed his failed policy on the middle and upper classes and they were either executed or sent to labor camps. Like Stalin, Mao, Kim or Hilter, HCM was characterized by a strong cult of personality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_cult]cult of personality[/url]
"A cult of personality is a political institution in which a country's leader encourages praise of himself and his deeds to such a degree that this praise affects nearly every facet of the country's culture."
Even worse and desperate, HCM wrote a biography praising himself using a fake name.

This is so true of HCM and other leaders mentioned above. It is so well evidenced during his time and after his death. Everywhere you go in Vietnam, you would see his picture or statue. Even today, the VC media talk about him constantly. I'm not questioning his leadership. I think he got talent but I'm questioning his intention.
He spent a great amount of time in Moscow during Stalin rule and observed in person how rude Stalin was and I conclude that HCM must like what he had seen. He was an educated man and can quote the Declaration of Independence of America and admired the America's democracy and freedom but he wanted to be Stalin, a rudeless and absolute ruler! Putting our ancestors aside, VCs continue this cult of personality of HCM.


I can see some people in here are buying in this cult of personality of HCM. Many Vietnamese are blinded by this already but not all are blinded by this kind of propaganda. Here's more evidence on this:
notice in 99.9% banknotes of VC have picture of HCM. We all have seen this. Do VCs only see HCM and no one else? and look at the not-commie banknotes. see the difference?? pictures below.

Many died in the War for this man named HCM and his comrades. The Soviets sure loved this mini-Stalin. He sure succeeded in making his name in this world. This man ego is so big that it still exists today but will fade away soon.

VC banknotes:


1946


1950


1949


1951



.............................
basically, HCM on almost all banknotes of VC state

2004




VNCH banknotes:

1955


1955


1966


1966


1956



............... etc...

Rest of banknotes: http://public.fotki.com/thunder510/images_...tnam/banknotes/


Just my opinion. if you think I'm wrong, let hear from you all.

Ho Chi Minh is a great man. A man who was able to manipulate and trick the Russian into believing that he would spread international communism to every corner of the globe for them that in return they would agree to help him get rid of the French.

What fake name did he used?

In his book, Col. Bui Tin called HCM a Stalinist....perhaps he was referring to the 1955 land reforms which led to executions and labor camps of thousands of North Vietnamese. At least HCM wasn't as bad as Stalin or Mao who killed millions.

bluelakedragon:

" Like Stalin, Mao, Kim or Hilter, HCM was characterized by a strong cult of personality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_cult]cult of personality[/url]
"A cult of personality is a political institution in which a country's leader encourages praise of himself and his deeds to such a degree that this praise affects nearly every facet of the country's culture."
Even worse and desperate, HCM wrote a biography praising himself using a fake name"

Wrong. HCM himself never encouraged or promoted a cult of personality around himself, and he was the only Communist leader NOT to do it. It worked out far better than any cult of personality, because most Vietnamese saw him as closer to his people than aloof figures such as Bao Dai or Diem. HCM was War Communism at its best and at its most effective. And if was effective because the man's integrity, simplicity and modesty came through. And as a Vietnamese, I have to say that Vietnamese value integrity, simplicity and modesty in our leaders - and the VCP fully understands that if nothing else.

The VCP and the state that it controls obviously promoted HCM after his death, because of his appeal and the respect that he commanded - And the dead can't object anyway. HCM was and is the VCP's strongest claim to legitimacy, especially when compared to the figures who wrecked Vietnam between 1975 and 1985, and I would be surprised if the VCP and the state that it controls did NOT promote HCM every chance it got. Maybe it's the VCP's form of ancestor worship - When it comes to ancestor worship, I can't remember when anybody's family ancestors did anything wrong.

HCM was ruthless but I just don't see him anywhere in the league of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung or Adolf Hitler.

I don't believe your claim that HCM wrote a biography of himself under a fake name, because he simply didn't need to: he had enough real achievements to his credit, and there were (and are) plenty of hack writers available who could write anything he wanted about himself, if that's what he wanted.

I don't believe your repeated assertion that he betrayed Phan Boi Chau either.

Even Western scholars who are very intelligent and knowledgable respect Ho Chi Minh [i dont even want show researches because it is widely available in every university]. I see no reason to believe anyone else.

You mean how many Vietnamese did the comintern kills under the VCP? Ok, I am not a history buff but during the early day of Ho Chi Minh and the VCP rule of North Vietnam, many innocent landlord(people that happen to own any land), peasants with any lands were all kill mercilessly under the guise of land reform. I will at least estimate the death toll to be at least 2 million if not more. Those casualties include both of my great grandfather. One who is a land lord that help the Viet Cong or Viet Minh with rice and clothing and also military inteligent because he is in contact with Japanese force at the time(acting as a double agent) to fight the Japanese. And the other who is just only a regular middle class farmer with only enough land to feed and cloth his family.

VC only mentions other peoples crime and atrocities but not their own. The massacre of Hue's civilian by VC and North Vietnamese forces during the Tet offensive (around 1millions) and the civilian during the war due to indiscriminate bombardment of houses by VC motars and artilery. There is a saying that I think fit the VCP, "The pot calling the kettle black."



If he is that great, why don't you go and suck is C**CK!

In Vietnamese history, people were rallied and gathered around talented, charismatic leaders like Tran Hung Dao, Le Loi, Nguyen Hue to fight off foreign invasions. Cults of personality were built around these men, Tran Hung Dao was even considered a saint, a god-like character. Folklores and tales of these heroes were kept being told generation after generation.

Confucius- influenced Asian countries like China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam attach great importance on their nation's leaders, how they look, how they interact with the common people, etc... and a charismatic leader can easily rally and motivate the people for great national causes. Whether a personality cult was purposedly built around HCM or it was also the genuine affection and admiration of the people who worked for him, came into contact with him and knew him is not important, what matters most is the advantage of having a charismatic leader serving as a rallying point for the people.

One of the disadvantages of South Vietnam (RVN) during the war was its lack of a talented, charismatic leader. Ngo Dinh Diem was considered by some of his supporters as being such a leader, too bad he was killed before the war broke out in high intensity and so missed the chance to prove his war time leadership. Nguyen Van Thieu was even worse. A nation where the majority of its people didn't believe in its leader, for whatever reasons: lack of personality cult, ineffective propaganda, etc... would definitely be put at a disadvantage and a real handicap compared to its war-time adversary.

To say that HCM liked what Stalin did in the Soviet Union and Stalin liked HCM is, to say the least, ignorant of history. An excerpt from "Ho A life" by William Duiker, page 421 : "Stalin's skepticism about Ho and the Vietminh's prospect was clearly on display during Ho's visit to Moscow. According to Nikita Khrushchev, Stalin treated the Vietnamese revolutionary with open contempt during the visit." During the Vietminh's war agaisnt the French, they received little if any help from the Soviets. It meant either the Soviets were too busy with their newly acquired eastern Europe, or Stalin had very little interests in Ho's little corner of the world.

There's a Vietnamese saying "Di voi But mac ao ca sa, di voi ma mac ao giay" which literally means "When you walk with a Buddhist spirit, you want to dress in a monk's robe. When you go out with a ghost, you want to dress in paper clothes." The western equivalent is "When in Rome, act like a Roman." Both have the same meaning, and that is you need to be flexible, compromising, give a bit and take a bit later, you have to act according to what others expect of you and what you've got if you'd ever hope to achieve your ultimate goals. Those who can not act and play their roles, even the role of a puppet, would sooner or later be kicked out of the political stage and discarded into history's garbage dump.

^ Lets give it another 50 years or so and we will know how history will judge HCM. People might say he is a saint or a traitor and sell out. In our History, we have sell out and traitor who at first seem to be a saint but latter, history will judge them differently.

Yes, keep your option opened and yourself informed is best. In case you have to make decision, do independent researches to form your opinion because everyone is biased.

There is definitely a Rashomon effect at work here. And it gets compounded, because there is/was suffering all around and many if not most of us are swimming in a sea of pain. As a Buddhist, I believe that we can pull out of this vortex through objectivity and compassion, both of which require integrity and an openness and willingness to deal with unpleasant facts. Nobody said being a Vietnamese is easy. In the end, when the truth wins out, we all win because we all are the better for it.

I am really proud of the members of this forum in general, and the way the give and take is going gives me every confidence that with solid and sound governance mechanisms, democracy in Vietnam will work whereas democracy has failed in so many places - We are not that different from the Vietnamese in Vietnam. As an American, I have participated in American political forums that were dialogues of the deaf at best and spitting contests at worst.

Here is something that is far easier said than done: we must always continue to search for the truth, no matter where it leads and no matter how much it hurts.

Give it a rest with your propaganda. 2 millions in the North died because of the land reform? . The land reform targeted the rich landlords. In 1931, the number of "rich" landlords who own more than 50 hecta of land in the entire Central and Northern Vietnam was just 390. That number would not change much in the 1950's. You'd better know your history pretty well before you even try to spread your propaganda.

1 millions died in the Hue massacre? Nice try, the entire population of Hue during the war could not even numbered 1 million.

And you want to know how the majority of the population of Hue died in the Tet Offense? It was resulted from the artillery fired from the American Army. My father and his family were at Hue and they narrowly escaped death just seconds before an American shell landed on their house here.

^
||

Is kpham001 in US?... If so... Then the School System in whatever state that he is in must be broken. He must be the one that was left behind.

Does somebody want to start reading The Pentagon Papers?

The Pentagon Papers: The Defense Department History of United States Decisionmaking on Vietnam: 1945-1967, 5 vols. (Boston: Beacon Press, 1971, 1972). . This is four volumes of material from the original study, plus one volume of commentary and index.

The following quotes are taken from The Pentagon Papers:

"In 1956, almost any type of election that could conceivably be held in Vietnam would, on the basis of present trends, give the Communists a very significant if not decisive victory."

"Nationalist appeal in Vietnam is so closely identified with Ho Chi Minh and the Viet-Minh movement, even in areas outside communist control, candidates and issues connected with 'nationalism' and supported by the Viet-Minh would probably be supported by the majority of the people."

"South Vietnam (unlike other countries in Southeast Asia) was essentially the creation of the United States."

"The CIA official in Saigon, Edward Lansdale, described the government of South Vietnam in the late 1950s as an 'emerging fascist state."

"In 1964, the CIA, the State Department, and Defense Intelligence Agency believed that the primary sources of communist strength in South Vietnam are indigenous."

"In 1965, the President of South Vietnam, President Thieu, according to George Ball, believed that 'the communists could still win any election held in South Vietnam.' "

http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/20...tnam.htm#papers

Hey hey hey smart @$$. Before judging about other people, let me see your credential. If you have any.

Credential ? ... me don't need no stinking credential to spot someone who was left behind by "No Child Left Behind".

Thanks for the set-up