Sirikittong
Jun 30 2006, 06:33 PM
Thaification is the process by which groups at the fringe of the Thai state become (or are made) more similar to the Central Thai heartland. To an extent this is a natural result of these groups being part of a modern state in which Central Thais occupy a dominant geographical, economic and cultural position, but it has also been actively encouraged by the Thai government.
The main subjects of Thaification have been ethnic groups on the edges of the Thai state, geographically and culturally: the Lao of Isan, the hill tribes of the north and west, and the Muslim minority of the south. However, Thaification has been, to a considerable extent a byproduct of the nationalist policies consistently followed by the Thai state over the 20th century. The promotion of Thai nationalism in the country as a whole took the form of reinforcing the Thai identity in the heartlands, while creating a Thai identity on the fringes.
Thaification by the government can be separated into four strands:
First, and most obviously, the government has targeted specific policies and actions at the fringe groups. An example of this is the Accelerated Rural Development Programme of 1964, the Isan component of which included the strengthening of allegiances with Bangkok and the rest of the country as one of its objectives.
The second strand consists of policies applied nationally, but which disproportionately affect the fringe groups. One example of this is the prescribed use of the Thai language in schools. This had little effect on Central Thais who already used the language in everyday life, but had a major impact on speakers of Isan in the north-east and of Malay in the south.
The third group of policies was designed to encourage Thai nationalism in all the country’s people: obvious examples are the promotion of the king as a national figurehead, saluting the flag in school and the twice daily broadcasts of the national anthem on radio and television. Encouraging Thai nationalism had the obvious side-effect of discouraging other loyalties, such as that to Laos in Isan or that to Malaysia in the south.
Finally, policies which were not overtly nationalistic could nevertheless have the effect of promoting nationalism. Increasing school attendance, for example, when coupled with the proscription of minority languages in schools, had the effect of discouraging the use of those languages in favour of Thai.
Thaification is also partly a natural result of participation in the society of a modern nation state. Central Thailand being economically and politically dominant, as well as geographically central, its language became the language of the media and of business. Equally, its values became the national values. Central Thai culture’s being the culture of wealth and status made it hugely attractive to those on the edge economically and socially.
==========================================
Whats your views on it? Bad/Good? Why/Why not?
tangawizi
Jul 1 2006, 02:52 AM
If u were a Pattani or a Issan, will your loyalty be consistently questioned juz coz u refuse to speak Thai or be Thai-fied under this national policy of Thaification?
I think Thailand shd now be confident enough economically and politically to undertake 'multiculturalism' rather than 'thaification'.
The big lesson as can be seen from France is that 'frenchifying' your minorities aint' gonna work if they haven't got the economics and job opportunities sorted out.
Multiculturalism will work better in the long term as people won't harbour resentments over ethnic differences as long as you are seen to distribute wealth fairly.
Kanlungan
Jul 1 2006, 03:13 AM
I wouldn't say if its good or bad but I agree with tangawizi. I think Multiculturalism would be better. If you look at the Philippines, there's this slow "Tagalization" and over the years it has created some sort of tensions between ethnic groups especially the Cebuanos and the Tagalogs; and slowly, the Ilocanos are "promoting" their Ilocano culture and resisting Tagalization.
Just my one peso. Hehe.
To what I have read(somewhere in the internet), the Isans number as much as the Tai people..
Arroi
Jul 1 2006, 06:12 AM
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jul 1 2006, 05:52 PM) [snapback]2007811[/snapback]
If u were a Pattani or a Issan, will your loyalty be consistently questioned juz coz u refuse to speak Thai or be Thai-fied under this national policy of Thaification?
hi there tangawizi! well if they refuse to learn and speak thai then that would make it very hard for them to get a proper job wouldnt it. Every single thai must be able to speak the national language, Thai. hmm talking about royalty to thailand, i dont know what you use to measure the degree of royalty but if a thai refuses to speak thai then i think it is highly appropriate to question his/her royalty to thailand. the question is whether they want to be thai or they are forced to be thai.
QUOTE
I think Thailand shd now be confident enough economically and politically to undertake 'multiculturalism' rather than 'thaification'.
well i think the assimilation plan has been very successful in thaificating all ethic minority well except ethic malay. im not saying that multiculturalism is no good but i think thaification works better in thailand due to the obvious similiarity in language and culture between ethic minority such as lao, khmer and mon and to lesser extend chinese to central thai.
im sure you are a frequent visitor to other asian talk such as malaysian. well you can see the negative side of multiculturalism, the tension between different race. oh im ethic XXX, my culture is better and superior than your culture. My race is better and richer than your race. i would hate to see those kind of posts in thai chat.
multiculturalism works better in singapore becuase chinese, malay and tamil all have their own completely different language and culture.
QUOTE
The big lesson as can be seen from France is that 'frenchifying' your minorities aint' gonna work if they haven't got the economics and job opportunities sorted out.
Thaification means there is no longer 'ethic minority'. All thai are thai and thats it. there is no chinese thai, lao thai or whatever. i mean im proud of my chinese heritage but im bloody honoured to be thai. it is wrong to say that ethic monirities havent got the economics and job opportunities. Eg many past PMs including current one are ethic chinese but who cares.
QUOTE
Multiculturalism will work better in the long term as people won't harbour resentments over ethnic differences as long as you are seen to distribute wealth fairly.
Amen to that!!! But, it is almost impossible to archieve that. There will always be resentments as long as 'im chinese singaporean, you are malay singaporeans and so on'. I can feel it. Wealth can not be distributed fairly, wealth goes to those who are smarter...
AEROFORCE1
Jul 1 2006, 06:16 AM
QUOTE(Kanlungan @ Jul 1 2006, 06:43 PM) [snapback]2007870[/snapback]
To what I have read(somewhere in the internet), the Isans number as much as the Tai people..
I think Esarn in Thai is around 20-30 million ,and their vote is fu-k up our political system
Sirikittong
Jul 1 2006, 09:52 AM
Excellent post Arroi. I can confidently say that my position on Thaification and multiculturalism is parallel to that of yours.
AnAttA
Jul 4 2006, 01:10 AM
Yeah.
transtic
Jul 5 2006, 11:08 PM
I'd just like to know what your position on the seperatist movement in the south is. They don't seem to have assimilated well (unlike Isanese and Northern Khmers) under Thaification. How would you deal with them if you were in control?
crew.
Jul 6 2006, 12:38 AM
^I suggest injecting them with H5N1 virus. If that fails, we can use them for cannibalistic purposes
transtic
Jul 6 2006, 01:08 AM
LOL! Why?
yokie
Jul 6 2006, 11:35 PM
Thaification is the process by which groups at the fringe of the Thai state become (or are made) more similar to the Central Thai heartland. That's just a statement, a definition, something Thailand has been longing to achieve in the past for many different reasons (mostly to prevent separation of Thai states to its neibours). But does it still matter now with all the kind of technological advances in today's world. You have seen the power of internet that can connect people who share the same interest and background but live in different corners of the world together. Thaicifying people would be so hard to do since all they need to do would be just hopping on their computers and counteract the Thaicification process by expressing themselves elsewhere. This web site is just one example that stands up against Thai assimilation. Beside, people have more resources to information now more than ever. They are not easily tricked into become a pro-communist or pro-separatist or pro-Thaksin or pro-central Thai just because of heresay like in the past.
Multiculturalism will always exist regardless of how hard you try to unify, unionize, assimilate the people. That's because people like to choose. Each of us has god's given talent that no other species in the world posess that is free will. If you would look hard into the human nature, as much as we try to be a part of a society, we also want to be different from other people living in it. This is a built-in instinct that can not be easily removed. Notice how the Thai students wear the same uniform in school but they still end up looking very different from one another.
tangawizi
Jul 6 2006, 11:38 PM
^ well said! best post i've seen in a long time on AF!
grandmaster
Jul 7 2006, 12:51 AM
Thats a bummer for a person like myself . I as a person from Chieng mai would like to keep my heritage, culture , and customs alive . I love the way I speak the northern lao dialect. I have no problem speaking the central thai dialect but I would not want to erase history and heritage. Oou neur dai ga jao.
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Jul 1 2006, 01:16 AM) [snapback]2008140[/snapback]
I think Esarn in Thai is around 20-30 million ,and their vote is fu-k up our political system
It doesn't really bother me much from you saying something like that because I am not issan. Your comment here really seperate our pride as oneness. Arent we all thai in thailand? Why does it matter what part of thailand we are from?
AnAttA
Jul 7 2006, 02:02 AM
QUOTE(grandmaster @ Jul 7 2006, 12:51 PM) [snapback]2027858[/snapback]
Thats a bummer for a person like myself . I as a person from Chieng mai would like to keep my heritage, culture , and customs alive . I love the way I speak the northern lao dialect. I have no problem speaking the central thai dialect but I would not want to erase history and heritage. Oou neur dai ga jao.
It doesn't really bother me much from you saying something like that because I am not issan. Your comment here really seperate our pride as oneness. Arent we all thai in thailand? Why does it matter what part of thailand we are from?
Why does it matter what part of thailand we are from?Because of the different of culture and beliefs in each region. It actually does matter where you come from.
Goombaking209
Jul 29 2006, 02:46 AM
i think it's bad .. if immigrants want to keep thier original identidy in thailand, why cant they have the freedom to do so? Isn't this what Japan does to foreigners? And despite instant assimulation, their government still marks them as foreigners even when they accept and culturally wash themselves completely to Japanese? I feel this kind of assimulation act is wrong.. Eventually the others will assimulate but it will nonetheless, still take generations after generations. If thailand is supposedly the 'land of diversity and acceptance', why not accept differences rather than assimulating the others? in a way, i think it looks almost prejudice. "If you want to be thai, forget your culture back at home, and adopt our ways of life and language." i feel that attitude is stupid.
SofaKingAwesome
Jul 29 2006, 06:11 AM
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Jul 1 2006, 04:16 AM) [snapback]2008140[/snapback]
I think Esarn in Thai is around 20-30 million ,and their vote is fu-k up our political system
Are you serious?
Sirikittong
Jul 29 2006, 05:33 PM
Goomba--you have a good personal point.
However, this system of nationalizing/standardizing is necessary in order to unite the over 72 provinces of Thailand and the people living in those 72+ provinces--and a poplulation of about 70 million.
Take it as an example of English. English is the standardized language in the United States--the main tool of communication--in business--in politics etc. The same can be applies for the Central Thai dialect in Thailand.
As for the effects of patriotism and nationalism in the country--I am completely supportive for it.
Goombaking209
Jul 29 2006, 09:09 PM
QUOTE(Sirikittong @ Jul 29 2006, 03:33 PM) [snapback]2104995[/snapback]
Goomba--you have a good personal point.
However, this system of nationalizing/standardizing is necessary in order to unite the over 72 provinces of Thailand and the people living in those 72+ provinces--and a poplulation of about 70 million.
Take it as an example of English. English is the standardized language in the United States--the main tool of communication--in business--in politics etc. The same can be applies for the Central Thai dialect in Thailand.
As for the effects of patriotism and nationalism in the country--I am completely supportive for it.
In america, we have the freedom to keep out personal identidies, local slang, and cultural heritage. Conforming to a standardized language is necessary, but coforming to a central culture by force just seems wrong.. I feel it's not one's choice to conform to a standard dialect of any language, it's more of a will/survival.
Something else i want to point out; if those 72 + provinces in thailand all claim to thai heritage and culture, then what's the problem with thier mini-distinct sub-culture? isnt it already a union of THAI People if all 72 provinces claim to be thai?
trying to unionize poeple can result in outbreak of civil war and devide people of the same race ..
AnAttA
Jul 30 2006, 12:16 AM
QUOTE(Goombaking209 @ Jul 30 2006, 09:09 AM) [snapback]2105650[/snapback]
In america, we have the freedom to keep out personal identidies, local slang, and cultural heritage. Conforming to a standardized language is necessary, but coforming to a central culture by force just seems wrong.. I feel it's not one's choice to conform to a standard dialect of any language, it's more of a will/survival.
Something else i want to point out; if those 72 + provinces in thailand all claim to thai heritage and culture, then what's the problem with thier mini-distinct sub-culture? isnt it already a union of THAI People if all 72 provinces claim to be thai?
trying to unionize poeple can result in outbreak of civil war and devide people of the same race ..
This is my first laugh of the day. There is no THAIFICATION.
The current PM don't even speak Thai properly. He often takes his family to oversea during religious holiday.
Sirikittong
Jul 30 2006, 12:30 AM
QUOTE(Goombaking209 @ Jul 29 2006, 10:09 PM) [snapback]2105650[/snapback]
In america, we have the freedom to keep out personal identidies, local slang, and cultural heritage. Conforming to a standardized language is necessary, but coforming to a central culture by force just seems wrong.. I feel it's not one's choice to conform to a standard dialect of any language, it's more of a will/survival.
Something else i want to point out; if those 72 + provinces in thailand all claim to thai heritage and culture, then what's the problem with thier mini-distinct sub-culture? isnt it already a union of THAI People if all 72 provinces claim to be thai?
trying to unionize poeple can result in outbreak of civil war and devide people of the same race ..
Once again you are entitled to your opinion. In the end of the day--what you say will have no effect because policy maintains its position the the country. Thailand right now needs unity--and when you have a nation of about 70 million people with overzealous patriotism and nationalistic pride--why my friend--you can do a great MANY things. This is what differentiates Thailand from its many neighbours in ASEAN.
I am in COMPLETE support of the status quo--and the system that is in process.
Point_Dexter
Jul 30 2006, 02:57 AM
Its a small world, celebrate your differences and unite under one flag.
Goombaking209
Jul 30 2006, 02:29 PM
Siri and anatta ---
which is which? anatta says there's no thaification and siri says the system is in process ....
??
skullwrecker_13
Jul 30 2006, 02:55 PM
can i just add something to this - thaification... define thai.
having a northern thai heritage, and being raised as a "kohn mueang" as well as a "normal thai", im guessing thaification means "central thai".
anybody here to enlighten me?
Jia-Kenmin
Jul 30 2006, 03:39 PM
I don't think the process Thaification completly eradicates indigious culture of a particular region, but rather gives them a sense of belonging. This is how it should be done. Rather than letting them live in their own enclaves and closed from the rest of the country, assimilating them into what is the main culture (in this case, Central Thai) is the only way to ensure national unity. Yet, several regions hold onto their own distinctive customs and culture nontheless from what I see. Diversity will work if one is united.
Sirikittong
Jul 30 2006, 04:41 PM
Thaification merely states that the whole entirety of the country is united by ONE commom language, culture, and way of life--a standardized system. It will not completely eradicate indigenous groups--however it will guarantee nationalism. Given--there are many other ethnic cultures that are protected by the government--and under the Ministry of Culture's 'protection list'. Dialects will always be there--the surin will always have their dialect--so will the issarn, so will the shans, the kareni, the malays etc. However---the standardized means of communication and identity is Central Thai.
Good post, Jia.
Sirikittong
Jul 30 2006, 04:43 PM
edit.
QUOTE(skullwrecker_13 @ Jul 30 2006, 03:55 PM) [snapback]2108310[/snapback]
can i just add something to this - thaification... define thai.
having a northern thai heritage, and being raised as a "kohn mueang" as well as a "normal thai", im guessing thaification means "central thai".
anybody here to enlighten me?
Theres nothing wrong with northern thai culture and language--its an indigeonous identity that should somewhat be taught in the schools of that region; same applies for other regions AT the same time as Central Thai.
skullwrecker_13
Jul 31 2006, 01:48 PM
do they teach anything about lannathai at all in school???
Sirikittong
Jul 31 2006, 01:52 PM
I wouldnt know--I didnt grow up in the north. Perhaps a person from the north can enlighten us.
skullwrecker_13
Jul 31 2006, 02:01 PM
i'd like to actually know exactly how the education system works in thailand, since i've never gone through the education system (well ok, about a year in a primary school when i was younger, that hardly counts and possibility going to give some lecture or something in october/november if i go back).
how are exams set-up?
are school curriculums centralised or is it entirely up to the schools what they teach?
what types of qualifications do people terminate/finnish with?
what type of qualifications exist?
how does the post-16 education system work?
cheers.
tangawizi
Aug 3 2006, 01:25 AM
QUOTE(skullwrecker_13 @ Jul 30 2006, 10:55 PM) [snapback]2108310[/snapback]
can i just add something to this - thaification... define thai.
having a northern thai heritage, and being raised as a "kohn mueang" as well as a "normal thai", im guessing thaification means "central thai".
anybody here to enlighten me?
is there something like a civic thai nationality? followed by cultural and ethnic division? So therefore thai-fication simply means different ethnic groups possessing one common civic thai nationality that is loyalty to the king, thai education system, thai army and monkhood service etc?
so therefore the southern muslims will have their own language and religion, but they have a civic thai nationality which comprises these things?
AnAttA
Aug 3 2006, 01:36 AM
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 3 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]2123144[/snapback]
is there something like a civic thai nationality? followed by cultural and ethnic division? So therefore thai-fication simply means different ethnic groups possessing one common civic thai nationality that is loyalty to the king, thai education system, thai army and monkhood service etc?
so therefore the southern muslims will have their own language and religion, but they have a civic thai nationality which comprises these things?
NO. They are different from the majority of thai people. And they are treated as if they are enemies.
I think it is time that 5 provinces( Songkhla, Nara-thiwat, Pattani, Yala and Satool) to become a Special Administrative Region of Thailand.
Thai people don't like them. They don't like thai people. Why do we keep them togethr?
tangawizi
Aug 3 2006, 02:01 AM
Special Administrative Region like Hongkong is to China? You mean the southern provinces should have their own government, collect their own taxes for education and municipal services, have their own police for law and order and but rely on Thai army for defence?
Won't Khun Siri have a fit if this happens..?
corky
Aug 3 2006, 02:03 AM
QUOTE(Arroi @ Jul 1 2006, 06:12 PM) [snapback]2008132[/snapback]
hi there tangawizi! well if they refuse to learn and speak thai then that would make it very hard for them to get a proper job wouldnt it. Every single thai must be able to speak the national language, Thai. hmm talking about royalty to thailand, i dont know what you use to measure the degree of royalty but if a thai refuses to speak thai then i think it is highly appropriate to question his/her royalty to thailand. the question is whether they want to be thai or they are forced to be thai.
well i think the assimilation plan has been very successful in thaificating all ethic minority well except ethic malay. im not saying that multiculturalism is no good but i think thaification works better in thailand due to the obvious similiarity in language and culture between ethic minority such as lao, khmer and mon and to lesser extend chinese to central thai.
im sure you are a frequent visitor to other asian talk such as malaysian. well you can see the negative side of multiculturalism, the tension between different race. oh im ethic XXX, my culture is better and superior than your culture. My race is better and richer than your race. i would hate to see those kind of posts in thai chat.
multiculturalism works better in singapore becuase chinese, malay and tamil all have their own completely different language and culture.
Thaification means there is no longer 'ethic minority'. All thai are thai and thats it. there is no chinese thai, lao thai or whatever. i mean im proud of my chinese heritage but im bloody honoured to be thai. it is wrong to say that ethic monirities havent got the economics and job opportunities. Eg many past PMs including current one are ethic chinese but who cares.
Amen to that!!! But, it is almost impossible to archieve that. There will always be resentments as long as 'im chinese singaporean, you are malay singaporeans and so on'. I can feel it. Wealth can not be distributed fairly, wealth goes to those who are smarter...
good post. as a foreigner i thailand one of the things i most like about this wonderful country is that thai can be anything from issan to malay to chinese to indian to luuk krung and by and large they are treated similarily by the thai public. comparisons to france neglect this major difference. the french (and i have french blood) can be damned intolerant whereas the "alai gaw daai" attitude of the thais actually diffuses much of the tensions that could arise from multiculturism. basically i know a guy who is 100% white american by blood. but he was born here and has never left. i once reffered to him as farang and was corrected by his ethnic-thai friend as hes not farang he is farang-thai.....he explained to me that the guy was thai to thai people even if he wasnt asian.
thats what makes thailand special apart form the south cultures can live harmoniously side by side without steppingon each other toes
another example i live near pin klaoo on charansanitwong and those familiar with this place know it as a muslim area. every morning as i go to work i hear muslim prayers from one house then buddhist or hindu prayers from another......how many places inthe world could that be achieved.
i think multiculturism would be great for a place like my home country ireland where catholics and protestants kill each other regularly. whats differt6ent about ireland? we had an evasive force that occupied all the land and basically enslaved the native peoples....that didnt happen here in thailand. the chinese came in drips and drabs as did the indians .....and i guess the foreigners are doing now.
granted thailand has expanded her borders to encompass some less than enthusiastic peoples....and thats the problem areas.....in their case they should be allowed to practice their language and culture seperately...but wait a minute! they can do that in the middle of bangkok!!!!!!!
i think i understand the feelings of resentment to thaification but i think its an automatic process anyway.....i mean i choose to come here and as my lunch lady said to me yesterday "koon mai chai bpen kon farang, koon luuk krung nai dtaa chan!" i am not half-thai but i think she is reffering to the fact i speak thai married thai have 100% thai kids, thai friends, eat thai food......dayum i just realised i have been thaificated!!!!!
AnAttA
Aug 3 2006, 02:08 AM
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 3 2006, 02:01 PM) [snapback]2123260[/snapback]
Special Administrative Region like Hongkong is to China? You mean the southern provinces should have their own government, collect their own taxes for education and municipal services, have their own police for law and order and but rely on Thai army for defence?
Won't Khun Siri have a fit if this happens..?
Yes. You understand correctly. And I see no reasons why can't we do it. We should do it under Thaksin's gov too.
With Thaksin's administrative style we can do it smoothly.
Why do I care Khun Siri? He is not even living in Thailand. Is he even a Thai citizen?
skullwrecker_13
Aug 3 2006, 02:49 AM
QUOTE(corky @ Aug 3 2006, 02:03 AM) [snapback]2123262[/snapback]
good post. as a foreigner i thailand one of the things i most like about this wonderful country is that thai can be anything from issan to malay to chinese to indian to luuk krung and by and large they are treated similarily by the thai public. comparisons to france neglect this major difference. the french (and i have french blood) can be damned intolerant whereas the "alai gaw daai" attitude of the thais actually diffuses much of the tensions that could arise from multiculturism. basically i know a guy who is 100% white american by blood. but he was born here and has never left. i once reffered to him as farang and was corrected by his ethnic-thai friend as hes not farang he is farang-thai.....he explained to me that the guy was thai to thai people even if he wasnt asian.
thats what makes thailand special apart form the south cultures can live harmoniously side by side without steppingon each other toes
another example i live near pin klaoo on charansanitwong and those familiar with this place know it as a muslim area. every morning as i go to work i hear muslim prayers from one house then buddhist or hindu prayers from another......how many places inthe world could that be achieved.
i think multiculturism would be great for a place like my home country ireland where catholics and protestants kill each other regularly. whats differt6ent about ireland? we had an evasive force that occupied all the land and basically enslaved the native peoples....that didnt happen here in thailand. the chinese came in drips and drabs as did the indians .....and i guess the foreigners are doing now.
granted thailand has expanded her borders to encompass some less than enthusiastic peoples....and thats the problem areas.....in their case they should be allowed to practice their language and culture seperately...but wait a minute! they can do that in the middle of bangkok!!!!!!!
i think i understand the feelings of resentment to thaification but i think its an automatic process anyway.....i mean i choose to come here and as my lunch lady said to me yesterday "koon mai chai bpen kon farang, koon luuk krung nai dtaa chan!" i am not half-thai but i think she is reffering to the fact i speak thai married thai have 100% thai kids, thai friends, eat thai food......dayum i just realised i have been thaificated!!!!!

"you're not a farang but in my eyes/opinion you're a luk krung"...

my personal opinion on this is there's more to being thai than following a direct bloodline. suppose a person is born to thai parents in thailand but ends up abroad at a young age, forgets his/her language and doesn't even know basic thai customs - what then?
tangawizi
Aug 3 2006, 03:19 AM
QUOTE(corky @ Aug 3 2006, 10:03 AM) [snapback]2123262[/snapback]
i think i understand the feelings of resentment to thaification but i think its an automatic process anyway.....i mean i choose to come here and as my lunch lady said to me yesterday "koon mai chai bpen kon farang, koon luuk krung nai dtaa chan!" i am not half-thai but i think she is reffering to the fact i speak thai married thai have 100% thai kids, thai friends, eat thai food......dayum i just realised i have been thaificated!!!!!

Laughs aside, u happen to be a well-off office worker with thai family in tow.. and thai-fication doesn't affect you coz you still hold an Irish passport. But for the ethnic groups in the south and northern provinces, they don't have that fate. Their resentment is understandable but real...
If Khun Annata thinks they deserve (well, at least for the southern province) their autonomy, that's a sign that thai-fication needs to be politically and economically spelled out clearly now. It doesn't mean the same thing for everybody in thailand obviously...
corky
Aug 3 2006, 07:34 PM
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 3 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]2123537[/snapback]
Laughs aside, u happen to be a well-off office worker with thai family in tow.. and thai-fication doesn't affect you coz you still hold an Irish passport. But for the ethnic groups in the south and northern provinces, they don't have that fate. Their resentment is understandable but real...
If Khun Annata thinks they deserve (well, at least for the southern province) their autonomy, that's a sign that thai-fication needs to be politically and economically spelled out clearly now. It doesn't mean the same thing for everybody in thailand obviously...
i agree. althoughi am not an office worker nor am i well off....i am a poor science/math teacher

but thaification will affect my son. i want him to be thai as possible so no problem. but yes its different for different people.
QUOTE(skullwrecker_13 @ Aug 3 2006, 02:49 PM) [snapback]2123414[/snapback]
"you're not a farang but in my eyes/opinion you're a luk krung"...

my personal opinion on this is there's more to being thai than following a direct bloodline. suppose a person is born to thai parents in thailand but ends up abroad at a young age, forgets his/her language and doesn't even know basic thai customs - what then?
agreed.
skullwrecker_13
Aug 4 2006, 04:05 AM
i've seen it happen - for that matter people IN thailand who wind up in international schools, refuse to speak thai and try to be as westernised as possible.
i'd rather consider a foreigner or a luk-krung (like myself) who make efforts to intergrate in thailand or stay in touch with their thai side as being more "thai" than somebody who is born there but takes no pride in his/her/its heritage.
i remember going up to seeing iron maiden in london (2003 dance of death tour.. man that was awesome!) with some friends and we started talking to some asian students who funnily enough were from thailand. it was all going well until i got a phone call from home and started to speaking in " pasa mueang" (northern thai dialect). then after i got blanked and no matter what i said to them, they would only speak to me when i was speaking in english. i know they've come over all the way to england to learn/practice english (or get a piece of paper saying they did) but it doesn't hurt to acknowledge meeting someone who has something in common with you.
my view on thai people and "thainess" is that simply following a bloodline or having a passport that says "kingdom of thailand" doesn't show much of a correlation because they are not factors you can choose. i did not choose to be born in brussels, i did not choose going to school in the UK, i did not choose my parentage.
its what you do with it that matters - some people reject their heritage (a luk krung who said "im ashamed of being half thai"... idiot), others embrace it and are proud. others are complete foreigners who decide to integrate into a country they feel they can identify with more than their home nation. to me, somebody who does that (decides to assymilate into thai society) regardless of their background is more thai than a full blooded thai who rejects his/her heritage.
AnAttA
Aug 4 2006, 05:24 AM
QUOTE(skullwrecker_13 @ Aug 4 2006, 04:05 PM) [snapback]2127571[/snapback]
i've seen it happen - for that matter people IN thailand who wind up in international schools, refuse to speak thai and try to be as westernised as possible.
i'd rather consider a foreigner or a luk-krung (like myself) who make efforts to intergrate in thailand or stay in touch with their thai side as being more "thai" than somebody who is born there but takes no pride in his/her/its heritage.
i remember going up to seeing iron maiden in london (2003 dance of death tour.. man that was awesome!) with some friends and we started talking to some asian students who funnily enough were from thailand. it was all going well until i got a phone call from home and started to speaking in " pasa mueang" (northern thai dialect). then after i got blanked and no matter what i said to them, they would only speak to me when i was speaking in english. i know they've come over all the way to england to learn/practice english (or get a piece of paper saying they did) but it doesn't hurt to acknowledge meeting someone who has something in common with you.
my view on thai people and "thainess" is that simply following a bloodline or having a passport that says "kingdom of thailand" doesn't show much of a correlation because they are not factors you can choose. i did not choose to be born in brussels, i did not choose going to school in the UK, i did not choose my parentage.
its what you do with it that matters - some people reject their heritage (a luk krung who said "im ashamed of being half thai"... idiot), others embrace it and are proud. others are complete foreigners who decide to integrate into a country they feel they can identify with more than their home nation. to me, somebody who does that (decides to assymilate into thai society) regardless of their background is more thai than a full blooded thai who rejects his/her heritage.
you made me cry.
tangawizi
Aug 4 2006, 05:29 AM
QUOTE(skullwrecker_13 @ Aug 4 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]2127571[/snapback]
i remember going up to seeing iron maiden in london (2003 dance of death tour.. man that was awesome!) with some friends and we started talking to some asian students who funnily enough were from thailand. it was all going well until i got a phone call from home and started to speaking in " pasa mueang" (northern thai dialect). then after i got blanked and no matter what i said to them, they would only speak to me when i was speaking in english. i know they've come over all the way to england to learn/practice english (or get a piece of paper saying they did) but it doesn't hurt to acknowledge meeting someone who has something in common with you.
Are u saying they became embarassed to speak to you in thai after your phone call cuz they thought you were like a hillbilly from northern thailand province or something like that?
Sirikittong
Aug 4 2006, 05:39 AM
^That is an applaudable point.
@Tangawizi--I think Khun Anatta's views are TOO extreme--so as to propose the fragmentation of our 5 southern provinces. He believes that Thaification will not--and is not working in the south--and is compelled to believe that every single THAI citizen 'dislikes' the people of the south.
That is completely eroneous and ambiguous and simply untrue. There are tens of thousands--if not millions of Thais that want to have a peaceful coexistance with the south--in fact there are thousands of southern thais that want to live in peace and assimilate in thai society--however, it only takes small number of people {hardcore extremist fundamentalist muslims} that ruins the image of the south--and prepetuates the problem. Not all malay-thais are bad, nor do they practice violence--the holy book of the Quran preaches peace, afterall.
The southern provinces are in the process of assimilation--and it will require additional time for the signs of legitimate assimilation in that region. Peace is an attainable prize---in my realistic opinion. It just requires the cooperation of both sides.
On that note---Anatta--does not speak for all royalists--who believe that provinces should just be given away--and placed as 'special administrative regions.' I and many others like me want to expand our territorial influence---the goal is to unite Thailand with shan states, as well as Laos. Perhaps this is just my own ultranationalistic bias. We differ in our own way, anatta and I.
...please dont hurt me anatta
AnAttA
Aug 4 2006, 05:41 AM
QUOTE(Sirikittong @ Aug 4 2006, 05:32 PM) [snapback]2127784[/snapback]
^That is an applaudable point.
@Tangawizi--I think Khun Anatta's views are TOO extreme--so as to propose the fragmentation of our 5 southern provinces. He believes that Thaification will not--and is not working in the south--and is compelled to believe that every single THAI citizen 'dislikes' the people of the south.
That is completely eroneous and ambiguous and simply untrue. There are tens of thousands--if not millions of Thais that want to have a peaceful coexistance with the south--in fact there are thousands of southern thais that want to live in peace and assimilate in thai society--however, it only takes small number of people {hardcore extremist fundamentalist muslims} that ruins the image of the south--and prepetuates the problem. Not all malay-thais are bad, nor do they practice violence--the holy book of the Quran preaches peace, afterall.
The southern provinces are in the process of assimilation--and it will require additional time for the signs of legitimate assimilation in that region. Peace is an attainable prize---in my realistic opinion. It just requires the cooperation of both sides.
On that note---Anatta--does not speak for all royalists--who believe that provinces should just be given away--and placed as 'special administrative regions.' I and many others like me want to expand our territorial influence---the goal is to unite Thailand with shan states, as well as Laos. Perhaps this is just my own ultranationalistic bias. We differ in our own way, anatta and I.
Yes. We are different. Siri is living in the Dream World.

I live in the REAL World.
He read too many glossy out-dated history books.
I speak from my own direct experience.
tangawizi
Aug 4 2006, 05:46 AM
QUOTE(Sirikittong @ Aug 4 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]2127784[/snapback]
That is completely eroneous and ambiguous and simply untrue. There are tens of thousands--if not millions of Thais that want to have a peaceful coexistance with the south--in fact there are thousands of southern thais that want to live in peace and assimilate in thai society--however, it only takes small number of people {hardcore extremist fundamentalist muslims} that ruins the image of the south--and prepetuates the problem. Not all malay-thais are bad, nor do they practice violence--the holy book of the Quran preaches peace, afterall.
The southern provinces are in the process of assimilation--and it will require additional time for the signs of legitimate assimilation in that region. Peace is an attainable prize---in my realistic opinion. It just requires the cooperation of both sides.
Thx Khun Siri, but don't u think you ought to ask the people first before you speak on their own behalf about such an important issue?
Give them a chance to vote on the issue like?
Sirikittong
Aug 4 2006, 05:56 AM
Yes of course. God I pray for peace in this region, this is truly Thailand's 'sensitive point'.
@No Khun Anatta--I am not a 'Dreamer'..Im no cultuist farang druggy.
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