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tangawizi
Has anyone read this book by Amatya Sen?

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Here's a book review:

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The Argumentative Indian by Amartya Sen

In the 3rd century BC, the Emperor Ashoka ordered the third and most prestigious of the Councils to be held to resolve various religious differences between contending factions. History does not record all that was said at the Council but it is easy to believe it was a lengthy occasion since, as AMARTYA SEN begins this splendid collection of essays, "Prolixity is not alien to us in India". But is it prolixity to any particular end? Sen's desire is to relocate India and Indian civilisation as centres in which, as for Ashoka's council, rational and calm attempts to resolve contentious issues take place. In doing so, he also seeks to show India as more than just the home for effete mysticism that it has been portrayed to be in some western societies.

Calm and rational are suitable words to describe Sen, of course, because his reputation as a Nobel Prize-winning economist was based largely on his efforts to reconcile economic analysis and its assumptions of rational human behaviour with the real ways in which people behave. Economic thought provides useful analytical tools but only when these are harnessed to a humanistic philosophy are they useful. Sen deploys these tools in a variety of fields, demonstrating a wide range of learning and of concerns. His arguments are persuasive, infused with concern for people of all stations and filled with the calmness that derives from a masterful employment of discourse.

The book is divided into four sections, each of four essays which were themselves written over the course of the past decade. Perhaps the best of these is the second section, entitled "Culture and Communication", which is instrumental in defining the overarching themes of the book. In "Tagore and His India", Sen re-establishes the work and reputation of Rabindranath Tagore as a polymath with concerns political and practical. In doing so, he reinstates Tagore to his rightful position. As Sen points out, Tagore's reputation has suffered in the west and his talents often ignored. Indeed, he shows Tagore to have established a reputation for intellectual breadth and depth that made him the equal in importance of Mahatma Gandhi, who has now become iconic in helping to bring about Indian independence. Gandhi is, again outside India, often considered to be saintlike in his dedication to peace and justice and these virtues became faults when translated into a political context.

If Tagore shows India in the modern world to be at least in part an upholder of a practical, secularist and rational mode of thinking, then the essay "China and India" demonstrates the roots of this tradition in the distant past. The stories of the pilgrimages of Chinese monks to India to secure Buddhist texts are well-known; less well-known are the travels and lengthy sojourns in China of Indian sages and their impact. The religious exchanges between the two countries are described and then set in a larger and more modern context. Religion was not the only subject in which exchanges took place. Practical issues such as food preparation and health care were also improved by cross-civilisation discourse. When Mao and the Communists ascended to power, universal healthcare improved many vital indicators of public health in China and vaulted that country above India. However, with the opening of the Chinese economy, inequalities in society have hugely increased while public health indicators show declines, so that India has again taken the lead. There are complex lessons to be drawn from the totality of this analysis.

In the section entitled "Politics and Protest", Sen again employs his technique with forensic precision to skewer the illogicalities and inequities inherent in the discrimination against women, low castes and the poor endemic in Indian society. He shows how these factors are deeply interrelated not only with each other but also with factors such as religion and ethnicity. He argues that it is not sensible or even possible to try to challenge one of these factors without simultaneously monitoring and affecting the change on the others. The same discursive techniques show how ill-served India has been by its resumption of the nuclear bomb testing program and the foolishness of religious extremism.

AMARTYA SEN is one of the leading intellectuals not just in Asia but throughout the world. His commitment to raising awareness of the ways in which poverty can be ended is well-known. In this collection of essays, he cements his reputation as a clear-thinking visionary for the future through his thorough understanding of both the past and the present.

John Walsh
03/07/2005
John Walsh is Assistant Professor at Shinawatra International University, Bangkok.


Here's an interesting snippet from a blogger back in Oct 2005

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What Argumentative Indian?

Few days back, there was an interview (click on Listen) with Amartya Sen on National Public Radio about his new book, The Argumentative Indian. In this book he argues that civic debate is as important as elections in a democracy and India had a long history of encouraging dispute and discussion from Vedic times.He starts with the Bhagawad Geeta in which initially Krishna and Arjuna take two morally opposing positions and finally Krishna convinces Arjuna to participate in the war through reason.

The other examples he cites are from the Rig Veda, supposed to be a classical Hindu text, but one which has debate on if God exists and if he created the world. The Buddhist council held during various times argued about the Buddhist teachings and Emperor Asoka set forth rules for conducting debates. Amartya Sen's reasons that, it was this historical track record that helped democracy succeed in India while it failed in many other colonies that got freedom from the British.

Last month, actress Khusboo expressed an opinion about pre-martial sex and said that people should take safe measures to prevent AIDS and pregnancy. Immediately members of the Dalit Panthers of India went to the office of the Film Artistes' association in Chennai carrying brooms and slippers and demanded an apology. Pattali Makkal Katchi said it will protest outside the house of the actress. Khusboo was forced to apologize.

The Govt. of India is currently following the path of liberalizing the economy so that more people can increase their standard of living and naturally the Communists are against it. The path they chose to express their dissent was to shutdown the whole country. Communists are members of the Parliament, the body established to debate such issues, but they seem to have scant respect for the Parliament and the process etablished there.

An Oriya writer, Bibhudha Ranjan has a new book on Mahatma Gandhi called Michha Mahatma which contains some objectionable content according to some. The book has not been released yet, and hence this information comes from reviews. But that did not prevent people from demanding a ban on the book and burning the effigy of the writer. The author of the book claims that he has used only previously published material, but then who has time to read, think independently and engage in debate.

I have not read Amarya Sen's book and hence don't know if he claims that the Argumentative Indian still exists in India. If you look around you will see such species only in some pockets and soon they have to be added to the endangered species list. We as a society seem to have undergone reverse evolution to become The Coercive Indian.


Any comment on Dr Sen's and the blogger's observations?
Tenjikuronin
Argument is important, but somethings should be without debate (such as pride in your country and pride in yourself)....
Jhangora
^ I agree.I havn't read the book .....I feel this topic should be shifted to the serious talk section.
Jagger
^ I think that would be a good idea. It should go in the Serious Talk section.

Indians have always loved arguing for thousands of years. Desis were also probably the first people to have debates.
ExpressYourself
Hmm...That explains why I always love to argue with people over every little thing........

We were the first ones to also have the "I'm always right!" attitude? embarassedlaugh.gif


tangawizi
Yes..thats what I notice about my Indian pals. They love to have the last word.. embarassedlaugh.gif
ACMILAN1983
well, I guess that explains my argumentative nature and need to ALWAYS have the last word lol.

In reality, I'm not really too argumentative, I'm quite relaxed, but I don't back away from debates ever. embarassedlaugh.gif
ExpressYourself
^LOL! I always have to have the last word. embarassedlaugh.gif
ACMILAN1983
^^I can't let that happen here though embarassedlaugh.gif

I don't know why, but I always let myself get into arguments with froglee in Chinese Serious chat. I should really ignore him, but sometimes the stupidity in the threads are just beyond belief lol.
tangawizi
Do you also happen to speak Hindi or Tamil or Malayalam or one of the local dialects/languages in India?

I got this strange idea that the argumentativeness has something to do with the way the local langauges are structured... confused.gif
ACMILAN1983
I speak Gujarati, and though I can't speak hindi, I can pretty much understand it (though I have to concentrate more, naturally).
Jagger
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jul 4 2006, 03:55 PM) *

Do you also happen to speak Hindi or Tamil or Malayalam or one of the local dialects/languages in India?

I got this strange idea that the argumentativeness has something to do with the way the local langauges are structured... confused.gif

Sanskrit apparently has the perfect grammar, if that's what you meant. But I think the root of the argumentative-ness is the Aryan culture itself.

I can speak Bengali/Sylheti and Hindi/Urdu (and understand some Punjabi). Although I can fluently understand Hindi, I sound a bit like a Firangi when I actually speak Hindi.
ExpressYourself
icon_redface.gif What's a firangi?
ndnboi
^Foreigner. Surprisingly i have heard thais use that word too.
tangawizi
QUOTE(Jagger @ Jul 6 2006, 09:17 AM) *

Sanskrit apparently has the perfect grammar, if that's what you meant. But I think the root of the argumentative-ness is the Aryan culture itself.


Can u elaborate why? I found the Dravidian folks (Tamil south) very argumentative too! In Singapore, most of the top trial lawyers are Indians.

I heard that Sanskrit indeed has the perfect grammar and sound to convey the energy of syllables. OM is the supreme example.

But most indians who are argumentative have not proceeded to the stage of their lives where they are meditative and chanting Sanskrit syllables. I haven't read Amartya Sen's book and the synopsis of his book argues that the tradition of dialogue has been in ancient indic cultures and passed on down to this day.

In your languages and dialects for daily speech, I wonder if they use alot of phrases which allow for opinions to be expressed by the other side? For e.g. 'correct me if I am wrong...'?
Jagger
By "Aryan culture", I meant the ancient Vedic culture, which was a precursor to Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, etc. The earliest text to contain a debate was the Rig-Veda, the oldest Vedic text, so that was probably the root of the argumentative-ness. Dravidians who followed the Vedic culture were also considered Aryans. Aryan culture also refers to early Iranian culture, although I'm not sure how argumentative they were.

I don't think the phrase "correct me if I am wrong" is used much in Desi languages, but the words "perhaps" and "but" are used quite often.

QUOTE(ExpressYourself @ Jul 6 2006, 07:51 AM) *

icon_redface.gif What's a firangi?

Like ndnboi said, it means foreigner. It's used in many Desi languages (or at least the northern ones). The word Firangi is also used in some SE Asian countries like Thailand, like many other words borrowed from Sanskrit and Pali.
ExpressYourself
Never heard any Hindi speaking person use that word.
pun187
QUOTE(ExpressYourself @ Jul 8 2006, 08:13 AM) *

Never heard any Hindi speaking person use that word.

Ahm...did you watch Lagaan ?
ExpressYourself
QUOTE(pun187 @ Jul 8 2006, 01:46 AM) *

Ahm...did you watch Lagaan ?



No.

I don't watch Hindi movies on a regular basis.
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