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Ino
QUOTE
A controversial Tokyo war shrine has started offering brochures in Chinese and Korean, to increase visitors' "understanding", shrine officials said.
...
The brochure says Yasukuni enshrines those who "were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied Forces".

It describes war as "sorrowful", but says that "to maintain the independence and peace of the nation and for the prosperity of all of Asia, Japan was forced into conflict".


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5055528.stm



W&N
QUOTE(Ino @ Jul 26 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]2092637[/snapback]

Yeah, this guy is right. Japan was forced into conflict, and America did not drop any nuclear bombs on Japan too. Nothing had happend during the WWII, and Japanese are very peaceful and they are loved by all of their neighbors.
Jasel
Wonder why Japan can't own up to it's own atrocities. Although most countries aren't very different.
Jaimu-Jaimu

I hope China and S. Korea realise that once again these are not the sentiments of the Japanese people.
Ino
QUOTE(Jaimu-Jaimu @ Jul 26 2006, 11:21 AM) [snapback]2092677[/snapback]

I hope China and S. Korea realise that once again these are not the sentiments of the Japanese people.


True that beerchug.gif
Suijen
I suppose the Japanese are okay with their shrine having such a refreshing interpretation of history?
flipcombatmedic
nothing new. i just dislike alot of immediate post war generations belief japanese who really think that America's atom bomb is wrong, yet continually believe that all the wrong they did was forced on them. weird because alot of them now are middle age pacifist.
kunomchu
QUOTE(flipcombatmedic @ Jul 26 2006, 10:59 PM) [snapback]2094528[/snapback]

nothing new. i just dislike alot of immediate post war generations belief japanese who really think that America's atom bomb is wrong, yet continually believe that all the wrong they did was forced on them. weird because alot of them now are middle age pacifist.


They should just own up to their own wrongs and let the past die. Us Chinese are kind of sick of this bull$hit too but we can't just stand aside thinking the whole world is okay when this denial is happening. I wonder how karma is going to work out for the Japanese?
Suijen
UGH.

"Greater East Asian War".

Jigga please, it's just Japan that started it and brought us along for the ride.
kunomchu
the ride ain't over yet.
Suijen
Blood is power.
kunomchu
you sound emo suijen
Suijen
No I don't.


Anyways, it's crap like this that makes other asians think that Japan dun' give a crap about this.
riceygirl
QUOTE(Ino @ Jul 26 2006, 07:53 AM) [snapback]2092637[/snapback]

wtf?? this is bs

QUOTE(W&N @ Jul 26 2006, 08:12 AM) [snapback]2092659[/snapback]

Yeah, this guy is right. Japan was forced into conflict, and America did not drop any nuclear bombs on Japan too. Nothing had happend during the WWII, and Japanese are very peaceful and they are loved by all of their neighbors.

lol
korean_turtle87
QUOTE(riceygirl @ Jul 28 2006, 08:16 PM) [snapback]2102446[/snapback]

wtf?? this is bs

why is it bs?
wally4media
QUOTE
I suppose the Japanese are okay with their shrine having such a refreshing interpretation of history?


Many Japanese have no idea Yasukuni Shrine glorifies Japan's war of aggression. When discussing Yasukuni, sometimes the news people in Japan say "BTW, there are also these half dozen war criminals enshrined there too, and that seems controversial," and that's it. Nobody ever says out loud in public that the people who run Yasukuni not only think WWII was a "war of self defense," but that they think it was a sacred war to protect the homeland. Very few Japanese people know that Korean families have demanded Yasukuni take down the names of their relatives who were forced to fight for Japan. Yasukuni just keeps refusing, because it wants to maintain the BS idea that Korean soldiers were somehow "loyal Japanese" who died for "their (Korea's) glorious Japanese empire." Many Japanese don't know the war criminals had to be enshrined, literally, in the dead of night in secret in the 1970s because they knew the public would get outraged then. These are the men that run Yasukuni -- they cultivate this fake image, but scratch the surface, and all their ugliness is there, and its even more ugly because they are using the names and memories of Japanese soldiers that never needed to die. Those soldiers were also victims of the facist attitudes of the WWII leadership, which Yasukuni still supports.

Many Japanese, and I have spoken to many, buys the image the mass media gives them -- Yasukuni is just this war memorial to pray for the poor dead soldier's souls who died in the tragedy of war. What they don't know is that Yasukuni thinks and promotes the idea that the war was not a tragedy, but glorious. Yasukuni will pass out pamphlets, but they won't say this openly on TV. For people who glorify fighting, they spend a lot of time acting in the shadows like cowards.

I blame the media for not informing people. They know the facts, they should say the truth. Koizumi said a couple of year's ago, "I go to Yasukuni because those soldiers only did what any soldier loyal soldier would do in any country -- they fought to protect the country's borders." (exact translation). By that logic, Japan's "borders" were Korea, Manchuria, the east half of China, and most of South East Asia. NOT ONE reporter or news program challenged Koizumi's statement.

Basically, most Japanese just don't know the truth. They just want a place to remember the dead soldiers that is apolitical, and they think Yasukuni is it, even though Yasukuni is actually right wing political.
kunomchu
QUOTE(wally4media @ Jul 29 2006, 05:34 AM) [snapback]2103349[/snapback]

Many Japanese have no idea Yasukuni Shrine glorifies Japan's war of aggression. When discussing Yasukuni, sometimes the news people in Japan say "BTW, there are also these half dozen war criminals enshrined there too, and that seems controversial," and that's it. Nobody ever says out loud in public that the people who run Yasukuni not only think WWII was a "war of self defense," but that they think it was a sacred war to protect the homeland. Very few Japanese people know that Korean families have demanded Yasukuni take down the names of their relatives who were forced to fight for Japan. Yasukuni just keeps refusing, because it wants to maintain the BS idea that Korean soldiers were somehow "loyal Japanese" who died for "their (Korea's) glorious Japanese empire." Many Japanese don't know the war criminals had to be enshrined, literally, in the dead of night in secret in the 1970s because they knew the public would get outraged then. These are the men that run Yasukuni -- they cultivate this fake image, but scratch the surface, and all their ugliness is there, and its even more ugly because they are using the names and memories of Japanese soldiers that never needed to die. Those soldiers were also victims of the facist attitudes of the WWII leadership, which Yasukuni still supports.

Many Japanese, and I have spoken to many, buys the image the mass media gives them -- Yasukuni is just this war memorial to pray for the poor dead soldier's souls who died in the tragedy of war. What they don't know is that Yasukuni thinks and promotes the idea that the war was not a tragedy, but glorious. Yasukuni will pass out pamphlets, but they won't say this openly on TV. For people who glorify fighting, they spend a lot of time acting in the shadows like cowards.

I blame the media for not informing people. They know the facts, they should say the truth. Koizumi said a couple of year's ago, "I go to Yasukuni because those soldiers only did what any soldier loyal soldier would do in any country -- they fought to protect the country's borders." (exact translation). By that logic, Japan's "borders" were Korea, Manchuria, the east half of China, and most of South East Asia. NOT ONE reporter or news program challenged Koizumi's statement.

Basically, most Japanese just don't know the truth. They just want a place to remember the dead soldiers that is apolitical, and they think Yasukuni is it, even though Yasukuni is actually right wing political.


so you saying japanese are dumb in understanding why other Asians hate their guts?
Ino
QUOTE(riceygirl @ Jul 28 2006, 11:16 PM) [snapback]2102446[/snapback]

wtf?? this is bs



BBC aint Bull$hit Talktohand.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(Jaimu-Jaimu @ Jul 27 2006, 01:21 AM) [snapback]2092677[/snapback]

I hope China and S. Korea realise that once again these are not the sentiments of the Japanese people.


definitely not the opinion of the majority. actually, a recent poll revealed that more than 50% of the japanese people don't want their next prime minister to visit the shrine.
riceygirl
oppsss haha i was skimming the article and misread some points...,so after rereading the article thouroughly.. i take back my "this is bs"..sorry! but i don't acknowledge that "japan was forced into conflict" this is ridiculous...

QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 29 2006, 02:39 AM) [snapback]2103359[/snapback]

so you saying japanese are dumb in understanding why other Asians hate their guts?


i'm quite sure "ignorant" was meant...due to the bias history textbooks most japanese students don;t know why asians hate their guts, because they don;t know what the japanese government did during the japanese expansion and ww2...so i guess...they're "ignorant" on this issue of why asians "hate their guts"...i ahve a first account of this.......

QUOTE(Ino @ Jul 29 2006, 05:51 AM) [snapback]2103665[/snapback]

BBC aint Bull$hit Talktohand.gif


i didn't refer to saying that bbc is bs..how did you get that?? confused.gif
Ino
QUOTE(riceygirl @ Jul 29 2006, 10:31 PM) [snapback]2105693[/snapback]


i didn't refer to saying that bbc is bs..how did you get that?? confused.gif



oh you were talking about Yasukuni lol, sorry, i thought you were talking about BBC laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
riceygirl
^ haha of course not! ^_^
gogogodzilla
With all due respect, Koreans and Chinese are also not known for apologizing about past mistakes. Don't see too much atonement going on in any of these 3 countries for the brutalities of the past. Might it be a characteristic of culture shared amongst them?
And about Japanese being ignorant of their past; is this so shocking? Another thing that these 3 countries share. China: Media and government straight out lying and censoring. No problem understanding how they lie to their people, straight out of the U.S.S.R. playbook with a dose of pan-nationalism. Korea and Japan: Media and government cherry-picking information that a manufactured-nationalism loving populace laps up with fists pumping in the air. Little more clever way of lying to your people, but basically straight out of the U.S.A. playbook with a dose of race-centered-nationalism.
Sure Japan should apologize. Sure the world should live in peace and harmony. Ain't going to happen until we all get our own houses in order. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
kunomchu
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 29 2006, 10:51 PM) [snapback]2105785[/snapback]

With all due respect, Koreans and Chinese are also not known for apologizing about past mistakes. Don't see too much atonement going on in any of these 3 countries for the brutalities of the past. Might it be a characteristic of culture shared amongst them?
And about Japanese being ignorant of their past; is this so shocking? Another thing that these 3 countries share. China: Media and government straight out lying and censoring. No problem understanding how they lie to their people, straight out of the U.S.S.R. playbook with a dose of pan-nationalism. Korea and Japan: Media and government cherry-picking information that a manufactured-nationalism loving populace laps up with fists pumping in the air. Little more clever way of lying to your people, but basically straight out of the U.S.A. playbook with a dose of race-centered-nationalism.
Sure Japan should apologize. Sure the world should live in peace and harmony. Ain't going to happen until we all get our own houses in order. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


Shame on you. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Don't expect Japan to get any respect by using this excuse. BTW we are not commies.
Ino
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 29 2006, 10:51 PM) [snapback]2105785[/snapback]

With all due respect, Koreans and Chinese are also not known for apologizing about past mistakes. Don't see too much atonement going on in any of these 3 countries for the brutalities of the past. Might it be a characteristic of culture shared amongst them?
And about Japanese being ignorant of their past; is this so shocking? Another thing that these 3 countries share. China: Media and government straight out lying and censoring. No problem understanding how they lie to their people, straight out of the U.S.S.R. playbook with a dose of pan-nationalism. Korea and Japan: Media and government cherry-picking information that a manufactured-nationalism loving populace laps up with fists pumping in the air. Little more clever way of lying to your people, but basically straight out of the U.S.A. playbook with a dose of race-centered-nationalism.
Sure Japan should apologize. Sure the world should live in peace and harmony. Ain't going to happen until we all get our own houses in order. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


Well Koreans in general dont have much to apologise over, im not saying they dont have things to apologise over but compared to Japan's list, its comparing a boulder to a rock.
kunomchu
Does Japan have to apologize to PRC? Hell no. But to Chinese people, they do. Do Germany apologize to the state of Israel? They must have some respect for the victims.
gogogodzilla
QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 30 2006, 11:54 AM) [snapback]2105790[/snapback]

Shame on you. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Don't expect Japan to get any respect by using this excuse. BTW we are not commies.


Kunomchu, 1st: I don't think Japan wants respect from anybody. They seem quite content alone on their little island. 2nd: It's not an excuse, just a fact of life here in East Asia. 3rd: not calling you commies (I assume from this that you are Chinese?) just that your government uses the same media censorship tactics that the U.S.S.R. used: outright lying and censorship. Whereas Japan and Korea have followed a slightly more American style over the last decade or so of wraping their media in the flag so that they willfully ignore news stories that seem "anti-Korean" or "anti-Japanese" or overplaying stories of how hard done they are by other countries. Either way, it leads to an ignorant populace that eventually becomes so wrapped up in themselves that they can't listen to others without knowing before they speak that they are wrong. So, don't blame the Japanese. They are our partners in fighting the corrupt, abusive and manipulative governments and corporations that use us, the common people, to enrich themselves. Same around the world, to lesser and greater degrees, but since this is a discussion about the ignorance of Japan and the Yasukini Shrine I thought I would just point out we are all guilty of being ignorant. 3rd: Your right two wrongs don't make a right, so don't go hanging the old members of the Red Guard for all the people they killed during the Cultural Revolution. That would just be revenge and that would be wrong. By that token we shouldn't prosecute all the racist old Japanese soldiers that killed people during the Japanese occupation of China. 2 wrongs don't make a right?
kunomchu
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 29 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]2105848[/snapback]

Kunomchu, 1st: I don't think Japan wants respect from anybody. They seem quite content alone on their little island. 2nd: It's not an excuse, just a fact of life here in East Asia. 3rd: not calling you commies (I assume from this that you are Chinese?) just that your government uses the same media censorship tactics that the U.S.S.R. used: outright lying and censorship. Whereas Japan and Korea have followed a slightly more American style over the last decade or so of wraping their media in the flag so that they willfully ignore news stories that seem "anti-Korean" or "anti-Japanese" or overplaying stories of how hard done they are by other countries. Either way, it leads to an ignorant populace that eventually becomes so wrapped up in themselves that they can't listen to others without knowing before they speak that they are wrong. So, don't blame the Japanese. They are our partners in fighting the corrupt, abusive and manipulative governments and corporations that use us, the common people, to enrich themselves. Same around the world, to lesser and greater degrees, but since this is a discussion about the ignorance of Japan and the Yasukini Shrine I thought I would just point out we are all guilty of being ignorant. 3rd: Your right two wrongs don't make a right, so don't go hanging the old members of the Red Guard for all the people they killed during the Cultural Revolution. That would just be revenge and that would be wrong. By that token we shouldn't prosecute all the racist old Japanese soldiers that killed people during the Japanese occupation of China. 2 wrongs don't make a right?


No, people just want the truth to come out. I'm not a ccp supporter and I know what happened during the cultural revolution. I don't need you to educate me about my own history. What Japan is doing, as a western democratic nation, is just wrong. Its called revisionism and is criticized by everyone east and west. You really don't see the impact that WW2 has only world politics. Japan literally shaped everything and now denies everything. It is naive to make it clearly simple case of ignorance. Even if it was ignorance, there are varying degrees. Japan is off the scale nuts. Also read my comment above your post.
gogogodzilla
QUOTE(Ino @ Jul 30 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]2105820[/snapback]

Well Koreans in general dont have much to apologise over, im not saying they dont have things to apologise over but compared to Japan's list, its comparing a boulder to a rock.


Yes Korea is relatively innocent compared to China and Japan, but it's also been a weaker country for quite awhile. However go back to the days of Koguryo and I think that the people who lived north of the Yalu River would not have said that Koreans were that innocent. But yes, that is an awfully long time ago. I used the example of Korea more to illustrate governments and corporations lying to and manipulating the nationalism of their people, in reference to Japanese people being ignorant of their nation's war crimes.
Ino
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 29 2006, 11:20 PM) [snapback]2105876[/snapback]

Yes Korea is relatively innocent compared to China and Japan, but it's also been a weaker country for quite awhile. However go back to the days of Koguryo and I think that the people who lived north of the Yalu River would not have said that Koreans were that innocent. But yes, that is an awfully long time ago. I used the example of Korea more to illustrate governments and corporations lying to and manipulating the nationalism of their people, in reference to Japanese people being ignorant of their nation's war crimes.


Research the history, Koreans have always been victims, and very few times the aggressors.
gogogodzilla
QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 30 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]2105864[/snapback]

No, people just want the truth to come out. I'm not a ccp supporter and I know what happened during the cultural revolution. I don't need you to educate me about my own history. What Japan is doing, as a western democratic nation, is just wrong. Its called revisionism and is criticized by everyone east and west. You really don't see the impact that WW2 has only world politics. Japan literally shaped everything and now denies everything. It is naive to make it clearly simple case of ignorance. Even if it was ignorance, there are varying degrees. Japan is off the scale nuts. Also read my comment above your post.

You know there is actually a sub-culture of young (and older) Japanese people who know about the revisionist history they are taught. And yes it is "just wrong" what the Japanese government and their right-wing corporate backers are doing. But we need more connections between sub-cultures of young people from Japan and China (and Korea) to have more educated (not hyper-inflamed nationalist rants) discussions with each other about the past. And what do you mean "Japan literally shaped everything," wow! They must be the (cue trumpets) "masters of destiny!!" Get over it and try to be more civilized than the Japanese people by approaching them with the understanding that the powers that be in their country are deceiving them.

QUOTE(Ino @ Jul 30 2006, 12:25 PM) [snapback]2105892[/snapback]

Research the history, Koreans have always been victims, and very few times the aggressors.

Actually, it's part of my job to research the history.
Koreans can't "always" be the victims but at the same time "very few times" be the aggressors. By definition that is impossible. So they have often been the "victims" and sometimes been the "aggressors", but that's what happens when your a weak country surrounded by powerful countries. However, as I said before, if you go into the past, when Koguryo or Unified Shilla were more powerful than the northern Chinese vassal states on their borders, they did become the "aggressors". That's the way power works. Sad but true.
kunomchu
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 29 2006, 11:36 PM) [snapback]2105903[/snapback]

You know there is actually a sub-culture of young (and older) Japanese people who know about the revisionist history they are taught. And yes it is "just wrong" what the Japanese government and their right-wing corporate backers are doing. But we need more connections between sub-cultures of young people from Japan and China (and Korea) to have more educated (not hyper-inflamed nationalist rants) discussions with each other about the past. And what do you mean "Japan literally shaped everything," wow! They must be the (cue trumpets) "masters of destiny!!" Get over it and try to be more civilized than the Japanese people by approaching them with the understanding that the powers that be in their country are deceiving them.
Actually, it's part of my job to research the history.


What do you mean by be more civilized? Is that flame? an insult? Most Chinese people are not hyper-inflamed nationalists. They however have the right to protest against JApanese revisionism. However, I agree with you that nationalism is bad for both countries. By inciting nationalism against another people, CCP and the Japanese government can ignore their own problems.

As for my statement that japan shaped everything, they did. They are the reason CCP is in power and they are the reason why Taiwan is not unified with the mainland. They affected global politics and it is stupid to simply ignore it. We are more connected than you think.

gogogodzilla
QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 30 2006, 12:43 PM) [snapback]2105944[/snapback]

What do you mean by be more civilized? Is that flame? an insult? Most Chinese people are not hyper-inflamed nationalists. They however have the right to protest against JApanese revisionism. However, I agree with you that nationalism is bad for both countries. By inciting nationalism against another people, CCP and the Japanese government can ignore their own problems.

As for my statement that japan shaped everything, they did. They are the reason CCP is in power and they are the reason why Taiwan is not unified with the mainland. They affected global politics and it is stupid to simply ignore it. We are more connected than you think.


This will be my last post for the day, getting ready for a dinner party and this conversation is making me procrastinate.
No not a "flame" or "insult". Just saying that when the Japanese media pumps out video to thier populace of people destroying Japanese embassies of attacking Japanese citizens it puts more power into the hands of the right-wingers. Peace activists in Japan loose out with this approach.

The whole world is connected by history and that can't be changed, but we all can shape our futures in some small way. Nobody is ignoring that Japan affected global politics. China also affects global and regional politics. (Ask any of the once independant states in the western regions of China that are being drowned out by Han Chinese powers.) We have to deal with the realities here and now. Hopefully that involves more cross-border contact between all the non-hyper-inflamed nationalists.
kunomchu
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 29 2006, 11:52 PM) [snapback]2105984[/snapback]

This will be my last post for the day, getting ready for a dinner party and this conversation is making me procrastinate.
No not a "flame" or "insult". Just saying that when the Japanese media pumps out video to thier populace of people destroying Japanese embassies of attacking Japanese citizens it puts more power into the hands of the right-wingers. Peace activists in Japan loose out with this approach.

The whole world is connected by history and that can't be changed, but we all can shape our futures in some small way. Nobody is ignoring that Japan affected global politics. China also affects global and regional politics. (Ask any of the once independant states in the western regions of China that are being drowned out by Han Chinese powers.) We have to deal with the realities here and now. Hopefully that involves more cross-border contact between all the non-hyper-inflamed nationalists.


You have to understand the difference between ultra nationalist and ordinary Chinese. Most Chinese are clearly only reactive to Japanese acts of denial. To tell you the truth, no Chinese really gives a crap about Japan. They use Japan to build upon their own ambitions. The smart thing for Japan to do is to stop instigating. Also what are the independent states in western regions? They were not independent. Know the difference between autonomous and independent. If you want to talk about tibet, make another thread. Your argument is going in all sorts of directions.
gogogodzilla
QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 30 2006, 12:57 PM) [snapback]2105999[/snapback]

You have to understand the difference between ultra nationalist and ordinary Chinese. Most Chinese are clearly only reactive to Japanese acts of denial. To tell you the truth, no Chinese really gives a crap about Japan. They use Japan to build upon their own ambitions. The smart thing for Japan to do is to stop instigating. Also what are the independent states in western regions? They were not independent. Know the difference between autonomous and independent. If you want to talk about tibet, make another thread. Your argument is going in all sorts of directions.


Had to make one quick reply. Arguement is not going everywhere, just coming back to the "those who live in glass houses..." comment I made earlier on. China has committed many crimes against it's neighbours in the past. What history books have you been reading?!?! Autonomous since when?!? Tibet since 1912. Sinkiang since late 1800's. Outer Mongolia since 1911. The Manchu Dyansty seized Tibet in 1724, Sianking in 1757, the Lli protectorate in 1757, Tsinghai in 1724. Previously they had seized Inner and Outer Mongolia. Later they became "autonomous" (which basically means we will give powers to local corrupt leaders that will bow to our needs while keeping the local populace suppressed. So I guess before they were (cue those glorious triumphant trumpets) "granted autonomy" by their benevolent Chinese masters they just didn't exist? No they were - "independant."

So since many Chinese don't know about their own history of suppressing their neighbours let's not get to worked up if most Japanese don't know either.
kunomchu
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 30 2006, 12:10 AM) [snapback]2106031[/snapback]

Had to make one quick reply. Arguement is not going everywhere, just coming back to the "those who live in glass houses..." comment I made earlier on. China has committed many crimes against it's neighbours in the past. What history books have you been reading?!?! Autonomous since when?!? Tibet since 1912. Sinkiang since late 1800's. Outer Mongolia since 1911. The Manchu Dyansty seized Tibet in 1724, Sianking in 1757, the Lli protectorate in 1757, Tsinghai in 1724. Previously they had seized Inner and Outer Mongolia. Later they became "autonomous" (which basically means we will give powers to local corrupt leaders that will bow to our needs while keeping the local populace suppressed. So I guess before they were (cue those glorious triumphant trumpets) "granted autonomy" by their benevolent Chinese masters they just didn't exist? No they were - "independant."

So since many Chinese don't know about their own history of suppressing their neighbours let's not get to worked up if most Japanese don't know either.


For a historian, you are very misinformed. Look up a history book. The territority of modern China is shaped by the Qing Dynasty. They were all incorporated into proper China because of national security issues. It wasn't until the economic boom and opening of China that the autonomous regions were being incorporated with the Han. Suppressing neighbors is not be equated with raping your neighbors. In the past, China was invaded in all directions by Mongols and Tibetans, later Europeans Americans, and then Japan. Japan's actions were purely out of greed as they were never taken over by a foreign entity. They even use the tsunami that wiped out the mongols as a tool to build up their cocky nationalism.
Suijen
Revisionism, lol.

Nothing wrong with revisionism except for one difference:

China is a growing power and has the power to avenge itself.

I mean if someone said that the US never slaughtered the Indigeonous Americans, not much to get worked up about. The difference is is that the victims of Japan's aggression (China and Korea) are not declining powers but growing ones, meaning that when the $hit hits the fan, they can do something about it.

That means that if you continue to piss them off, it's going to count against you later.

Debating the morality issue, sure it's probably more moral and la-tee-ta-da to "forgive" the Japanese, but honestly, this isn't really about morality. It's about Japan's action of aggression against Korea and China. Honestly, we don't give a flying fu-k if Japan changed or not, the only thing we care about is what Japan is doing to either appease us. So far, Japan's actions have been disappointing. So we're being pissed right now, and if it's any consolation, we're only whining and b!tching, it's not like we're invading Japan for revenge or anything.

So take your b!tching like a man.
Goombaking209
i just spoke to a japanese lady through chat personally about this.. technically i asked about her input on the new history textbook, and she explained by not giving a straight answer. she did however opened my eyes to why japan not writing truthfully in thier textbook shouldnt be a worrysom matter, becuase only korea and china are mad about it.

anyways, she told me that there are some japanese who visit shrines to pay respects for the ww2 soldiers and there are others who oppose it. She visits them. For one, many soldiers were brainwashed human killers. Most of the soldiers were forced to die for their country or die at the hands of the emperor. Most complied to fight because they believed thier death in fighting would do more for japan than just dying for no reason..

In japan, people are forgiven after they die because holding grudges and hatred for them is only hurting yourself. The things you did wrong in your lifetime doesnt matter anymore because you're dead.
Suijen
^ I'm sure they're vindicated for all their crimes 'cause they kicked the bucket. But are the victims' lives restored? No? Awww shucks.
gogogodzilla
QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 30 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]2106055[/snapback]

For a historian, you are very misinformed. Look up a history book. The territority of modern China is shaped by the Qing Dynasty. They were all incorporated into proper China because of national security issues. It wasn't until the economic boom and opening of China that the autonomous regions were being incorporated with the Han. Suppressing neighbors is not be equated with raping your neighbors. In the past, China was invaded in all directions by Mongols and Tibetans, later Europeans Americans, and then Japan. Japan's actions were purely out of greed as they were never taken over by a foreign entity. They even use the tsunami that wiped out the mongols as a tool to build up their cocky nationalism.

I never said I was an historian, I have to study history to use in my job.
These regions have been "incorporated" (there's a nice word for 'invasion', sounds like George W. Bush's lexicon) by more than one Dynasty, I was just using the most recent example.
By the way, can't you see how you're also using the same language to justify yourself that so many other people have used throughout history. For example,"They were all incorporated into China because of national security issues." Change 'China' to 'Japan' and you have the excuse Japanese right-wingers use for their pillaging of their Asian neighbours for 50-odd years. Some regions in China would love to secede. Put it all to a democratic vote now and China would lose a hell of a lot of "its" territory.
Yes, of course China has been invaded many times, it's smack in the middle of the continent surrounded by other countries, but it has also done it's share of invading. Japan is an isolated island that wanted little to do with it's neighbours, except for a few "shock and awe" (since were using Bushisms) trips to Korea. It used to send home the heads of emissaries that China had dispatched to their island. (Sorry emperor, no virgins brides or native trinkets for you.) So it's had little opportunity to get invaded. (Though they did head to Korea a few times and generally burn things to the ground. Never got an apology for that either.)
"Cocky nationalism"? Hhhm, as I have said, "Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Granted the Japanese house may be made of a lot more fragile glass, but the metaphor still stands.

kunomchu
How can you compare National Security to Greed? Nobody ever invaded or ruled over Japan. The only people that ever tried to take over Japan were the Mongols and they barely put up fight due to a national disaster. China has always faced dangers with nomadic tribes in the outlands. Tibetans and Mongolians were often paid to keep the peace. I'm not saying China is perfect as it did attack its neighbors. But if you talk about why Tibet and Mongolia is part of China, it was a national security issue set back since ancient times. Japanese on the other hand with their cockiness with their meiji restoration decided the hell with everything, we are top dog now. They attacked Russia and invaded Manchuria. Thats not the worst part. They did it in the worst possible way. I don't think you should try to compare two different scenarios. If you want to talk about Tibet, post in the tibet thread and stop your bull$hitting in this thread. I'm not justifying anything as these two are totally separate scenarios as I pointed out earlier.
gogogodzilla
QUOTE(kunomchu @ Jul 30 2006, 08:11 PM) [snapback]2106899[/snapback]

How can you compare National Security to Greed? Nobody ever invaded or ruled over Japan. The only people that ever tried to take over Japan were the Mongols and they barely put up fight due to a national disaster. China has always faced dangers with nomadic tribes in the outlands. Tibetans and Mongolians were often paid to keep the peace. I'm not saying China is perfect as it did attack its neighbors. But if you talk about why Tibet and Mongolia is part of China, it was a national security issue set back since ancient times. Japanese on the other hand with their cockiness with their meiji restoration decided the hell with everything, we are top dog now. They attacked Russia and invaded Manchuria. Thats not the worst part. They did it in the worst possible way. I don't think you should try to compare two different scenarios. If you want to talk about Tibet, post in the tibet thread and stop your bull$hitting in this thread. I'm not justifying anything as these two are totally separate scenarios as I pointed out earlier.

You are a funny young man. Japan's justification was that it was defending Asia (and itself) from Western invaders. They were trying to liberate Asia from the nasty white guys. Is that "national security" or "greed'. Fine line seperates the two. My bovine $hit, your bovine $hit it's all just a pile of dung unless you're willing to open your mind to the "other". I could post my excrement in the Tibet thread but this thread is about Japanese ignorance of their past in relation to the Yasukuni Shrine and as I said about "glass houses"; Tibet, and many other insignificant (compared to the almighty Han Chinese) minority groups, China should get its own fragile house of history in order before condeming (rightfully so) Japanese ignorance. So, yes, it is relavent to this thread. I sent you an IM earlier saying that I agree with a lot of what you say but not all. As this rant continues I have to lower that estimation to a 50/50 level. Good luck with the anger.
wally4media
OK, Gogogodzilla and Kunochu, you guys are officially now spinning this thread WAY off topic. Japanese right wingers love this kind of thing -- b!tchy back and forth about unrelated issues and the crimes or non crimes of China, so we're not looking at what we SHOULD be focused on -- Yasukuni. Save the debates about all the old this and that history of China for another thread.

The point here is that RIGHT NOW, in the present day, Koizumi and Abe Shinzo have effectively made going to Yasukuni Shrine a respectable thing to do, which harms Chinese-Korean-Japanese relations RIGHT NOW by effectively patronizing an institution that not even Japan's biggest ally the US would visit, because it not only denies Japan's past war crimes, it glorifies them.

As for the "National Defense or Greed"? Thing, I think there was a reason Peter Duus named his book about the Japanese takeover of Korea, "The Abacus and the Sword." Japan's sordid prewar past is not just about military aggression, BUT ALSO economic exploitation, both of which Yasukuni Shrine wants to beautify as a somehow sacred project to protect Asia from the white man through both military and economic means, correctly noted by someone here as a line of crap.

Thankfully, someone corrected an incorrect impression from my previous post that Japanese were "ignorant."
Japanese are not "ignorant" of the past, they are mislead by a biased mass media and government propaganda, and I see sometimes (but not always) people lose sight of the fact that the majority of most people in all three countries tend to believe what they are taught to believe by politicians and educators with a political agenda.

"All Koreans are victims" is a very superficial view -- many Koreans can make a list of Koreans that got very rich and/or powerful off the Japanese occupation -- the Korean elite of the Japanese colony of Korea. These few men got rich, and many Japanese, not part of the elite in Japan, suffered. Here are the roots of the North South divide.


In other words, its not "Japan vs. Korea vs. China," but the common person being manipulated by whatever people hold power in the elite circles of government. As it was before the war, as it is now. This is why Yasukuni is such an AWFUL place -- before and during WWII, it was one of the primary centers of propaganda used by the imperial government to convince Japanese soldiers to go off to die in an unjust, terrible, and destructive war was good for Japan. And now Koizumi says going to Yasukuni is good for Japan -- no Koizumi, its bad. It's wrecked relations with countries Japan should be building better relations with to deal with real issues affecting real people today. As someone correctly noted here, China and South Korea are strong countries now, so Japan can not, as supporters of Yasukuni say, just decide this issue on their own inside Japan and not expect strong negative consequences as a result.

Actually, it is funny that after I posted what many Japanese think about Yasukuni, we got a post showing exactly what I described. And no, I am not saying this comment is "ignorant," I am saying this person has been misinformed by the mass media and lied to about what Yasukuni is really all about--

QUOTE
i just spoke to a japanese lady through chat personally about this.. technically i asked about her input on the new history textbook, and she explained by not giving a straight answer. she did however opened my eyes to why japan not writing truthfully in thier textbook shouldnt be a worrysom matter, becuase only korea and china are mad about it.


My deconstruction (note the italics in the quote)
1) Japanese are unable to discuss the history openly and directly even with each other.
2) It's not about the history of Japan (they don't really know it) it's only about not making Korea and China mad now. In other words, these countries get mad, but the lady won't discuss WHY they are mad.

QUOTE
anyways, she told me that there are some japanese who visit shrines to pay respects for the ww2 soldiers and there are others who oppose it. She visits them. For one, many soldiers were brainwashed human killers. Most of the soldiers were forced to die for their country or die at the hands of the emperor.


More of my deconstruction-
3) perfect example of what I described in my earlier post -- the belief that Yasukuni is a neutral, nonpolitcal memorial shrine, and this person DOES NOT KNOW that Yasukuni in fact was not only a primary agent of brainwashing soldiers to fight, but that they completely oppose the view expressed here -- Yasukuni TODAY does not say soldiers were forced to fight (quite the opposite), and Yasukuni glorifies their deaths in the name of the emperor. In other words, this person is visiting a shrine that advocates everything this lady says she says she opposes -- ignorance or misinformation, whatever, but obviously an example the topic of Yasukuni is not discussed very deeply in Japan.

QUOTE
Most complied to fight because they believed thier death in fighting would do more for japan than just dying for no reason..


4) Kamikaze circular logic. Comments like this drive me crazy. "They were brainwashed, so rather than oppose the people who brainwashed them, we support their right to be brainwashed, even though they knew they were being brainwashed." I say this-- drop the Kamikaze circular logic. Japanese soldiers were sent to their doom by a government that never cared about the soldiers and was an awful, facist government.

QUOTE
In japan, people are forgiven after they die because holding grudges and hatred for them is only hurting yourself. The things you did wrong in your lifetime doesnt matter anymore because you're dead.


5) Nice sentiment, too bad the people who run Yasukuni don't share it. The people who run Yasukuni think that soldiers should not be forgiven because Japan's war was not a a wrong thing to do, so therefore there is nothing to forgive because they were not brainwashed, they were not murderers, but soldiers fighting a noble fight for Japan's self defense. The sentiment by this lady is also a good expression of Buddhist philosphy, which shows that Yasukuni, created by the government for propaganda reasons, is not a proper Shinto Shrine at all. In fact, making a Shrine a "mortuary" is completely against over 1000 years of Shinto tradition.

I blame the American government. If an American President or official will not step foot in Yasukuni, why do they ignore this issue, allowing it to harm relations in East Asia, especially at a time when we all need to come together to deal with North Korea? Unforgivable.
HaoHaoHao
The Americans government wished China did the Rape of Kyoto on Japan. In that case they would use it to go to war.
Ino
QUOTE(HaoHaoHao @ Jul 30 2006, 12:00 PM) [snapback]2107651[/snapback]

The Americans government wished China did the Rape of Kyoto on Japan. In that case they would use it to go to war.


Well Americans dont want China to be strong...
kunomchu
QUOTE(gogogodzilla @ Jul 30 2006, 08:20 AM) [snapback]2107034[/snapback]

You are a funny young man. Japan's justification was that it was defending Asia (and itself) from Western invaders. They were trying to liberate Asia from the nasty white guys. Is that "national security" or "greed'. Fine line seperates the two. My bovine $hit, your bovine $hit it's all just a pile of dung unless you're willing to open your mind to the "other". I could post my excrement in the Tibet thread but this thread is about Japanese ignorance of their past in relation to the Yasukuni Shrine and as I said about "glass houses"; Tibet, and many other insignificant (compared to the almighty Han Chinese) minority groups, China should get its own fragile house of history in order before condeming (rightfully so) Japanese ignorance. So, yes, it is relavent to this thread. I sent you an IM earlier saying that I agree with a lot of what you say but not all. As this rant continues I have to lower that estimation to a 50/50 level. Good luck with the anger.


Keep telling yourself that. Who's getting angry? I'm just getting facts right.

As for Wally4media, I agree with some of your points. I have even argued using them in the past. Media, Shinto, and right wingers exploiting the shrine as a tool. As for blaming Americans? I don't agree. Japanese constantly want to stand on their own ground by becoming a respectable world power. If they had balls, they would end this debacle themselves. Americans aren't the bosses of the world you know. They also aren't the best mediators. Also, Economic greed by Japan does not justify their action as an act of national security. Tibet and Mongolia did not have natural resources for China to tap. Have you ever heard of the Yuan Dynasty?
wally4media
QUOTE(HaoHaoHao @ Jul 31 2006, 01:00 AM) [snapback]2107651[/snapback]

The Americans government wished China did the Rape of Kyoto on Japan. In that case they would use it to go to war.


And if pink pigs had yellow wings and monkeys wore hats.... what???? I think this is a serious discussion about history and Yasukuni, not an episode of Pokemon or "What if in Final Fantasy Land." Do you know about the sinking of the Panay, a US ship sunk and passengers killed by the Japanese in 1938 during the massacre of Nanking? This is why the Nanking massacre got such attention around the world, generated sympathy for the Chinese in the US, and made the US think the Japan was out of control. This is not a comic book - this is history, and how the US got pulled into the Pacific War when it just wanted to stay out of all world wars -- this was the attitude of the US before Pearl Harbor.

American mistaken involvement with wars in other countries (trying to be "the boss of the world") began AFTER that, and was mostly about Cold War politics. Americans supported China before 1948, but falsely thought Chang Kai Shek was a good leader, and did not appreciate the real appeal to the Chinese of the communists. The US also totally blundered in Korea in 1945-1950, dividing the country in a chess game with Russia and choosing sides (anti-Japanese Koreans vs. pro-Japanese Koreans, Communists vs. Non Communists) when the US knew nothing about Korea, and we all know the terrible result.

Since then, the US has turned a blind eye to the problems that divide Japanese from Korean and Chinese, and almost always tends to support Japan, because they use Japan as their US forward military base, again a situation that is a result of cold war politics.

But the cold war is over. What I am saying is:
1) Yes, the US has acted very badly in the region since 1945, but times have changed, so it is no longer good for anyone for the US to act like that, especially for the US. Time for the US to change its actions. Do you disagree with that?
2) Yes, Bush has completely destroyed good will towards the US in the eyes of other nations, many in the US say that loud and clear now, and they say they the US needs to change US behavior in the world by being a partner and not a bully, do you disagree with that?
3) The US has a real military alliance with both Japan and South Korea that neither of these countries are going to give up (be realistic), but the US ignores the problems that divide its two allies, like Yasukuni. This means the three can not work together as equal partners on real, important issues.
Do you disagree with that?
4) Even though the US fought against Japan in a war Japan started against China and the US, and Yasukuni says both China and the US were not victims but the cause of the war, which is crap, the US ignores the Yasukuni issue because it favors Japan over China and South Korea post war, do you disagree with that?

Do you disagree that (4) is completely hypocritical of the US? If you think the US is just a selfish bully that only cares about its own interests, wouldn't the USA saying "The Japanese Prime Minister going to Yasukuni is WRONG" be a great way to start to prove it is changing its ways?

Would Chinese and Koreans think this is so terrible, if the US says Yasukuni is wrong? Or would they applaud the US? As for the Japanese, they are divided on Yasukuni, 50-50. More importantly, the leadership of the Japanese ruling party, the LDP, is divided on the issue. If the US just said quietly to the government of all countries, "If the Japanese Prime Minister keeps insisting on going to Yasukuni, we will have to go very public about our opposition," and Japanese politicians like Abe will stop going. Loud mouth Japanese politicians can bark all they want, but I think they are very afraid the US will actually come out and oppose Yasukuni, which will totally undermine their position. I think most Japanese will just settle down and be happy they don't have to debate this so hotly in Japan in public anymore, and individual citizens can go to Yasukuni if they want to or not. But the government will stay out.

kunomchu rightfully asks me --
QUOTE
As for blaming Americans? I don't agree. Japanese constantly want to stand on their own ground by becoming a respectable world power. If they had balls, they would end this debacle themselves. Americans aren't the bosses of the world you know. They also aren't the best mediators.


Yes, the American government aren't the best mediators, and Bush has destroyed America's ability to be a fair mediator, but Clinton was starting to fix that before Bush screwed everything all up and made the reputation of America in the world dirt. But even Clinton had his faults, I will agree. Now more people are beginning to see the light in the US, not just because, as you say, Americans ARE not the boss of the world, but because the US is UNABLE be the boss of the world all by itself-- its not realistic. All the countries are connected in a world wide economy, and North Korea is not just one country's problem.

As for the Japanese who "want to stand on their own ground by becoming a respectable world power" without the US, this is all just talk-talk-talk by the politicians. The Japanese Defense Force experts know that a Japanese military independent and separated from US deterrent power is just a pipe dream of the politicians. And look at the biggest advocates of that, like Koizumi -- he still acts like a childish lap dog with Bush, long after both US citizens and the world see Bush as a completely wrong and destructive bully.

Also you fail to see the contradiction in your own statement -- To people like Koizumi, Abe, and others, going to Yasukuni (what you call the debacle) and building up an independent Japanese military that can act more aggressively (standing on their own ground, "having balls") are not two separate issues, but two parts of the SAME issue. All of the biggest Hawks in Japan are Yasukuni supporters. What's going on? They are trying to imitate the US neocons like Bush and Cheney, but they have failed to see that these kinds of policies have brought nothing but disaster and grief to the US and other countries, just like Japan's actions in WWII brought nothing but grief and disaster to Japan and other countries.

QUOTE
Also, Economic greed by Japan does not justify their action as an act of national security.


Again this constant artificial separation. Go to the history books. Everytime Japan unjustly invaded a country after the start of the Meiji period, especially after 1904, it always said, "we have to do this protect our rights and interests," in other words, their economic interests, and their national security. If you can not understand that economic exploitation and military expansion are two equal heads of the ugly beast called imperialism, you have failed to understand non-marxist history, marxist history, and the only history you understand is the way of thinking Yasukuni promotes, but you just want to blame Japan and not another.

EVERY time one country invades another, it always claims national security as the reason, true or not. Take Iraq -- the US (falsely) claimed national security as the reason. If we gave every country a green light to invade another just because they said, "we have to do this for national security" we would all be stuck in a neverending war.

And BTW, you can talk all you want about the Yuan Dynasty or whatever, but if China keeps going on about "national security" to justify any and all actions, China will end up with the same reputation the US has now. When the major think tank in China claimed that the ancient Korean kingdom of Koguryo was a Chinese country, it made Koreans furious and suspicious of China, right when Koreans thought they could build a better relationship with China to balance out a more "bossy" Japan and US. This is not helpful, nor is Yasukuni, and it gives Japanese Hawks the excuse to keep patronizing Yasukuni.


epicanthics
Even if we take all the revisionism as truth. Being "forced" to commit atrocity does not ascond you from responsibility.

In any case, the US ought to do well to start paying some attention to this $hit. They're being turned into the bad guys. Well, when Koizumi went to the US, Dennis Haster badgered him about Yasukuni and demanded some sort of promise or something like that. But he's only one man. Still, it's something.
kunomchu
economic interests are not always vital interest. Japan was militarizing and therefore needed all the raw goods it could scramble. It went into Manchuria for this reason.
mikekk86
"Yasukuni Shrine says Japan was "forced" to commit Rape of Na, whatta heck?!"

A prime example of how a bias person interprets things to fit their agenda of hatred. Unbelievable. Read the Yasukuni Shrine Brochure yourself and you'll see how the title of this thread is total fiction.
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