The Japanese still hold their Emperor in great esteem. Much more so than the British cherishing their royal family or any other nation who has a monarchy. The 14 or so war criminals at the Yasakuni Shrine were criminals. There is no doubt about it. But the Japanese still wish to honor them and not move them to another burial location because they are grateful for their sacrifice. What sacrifice? MacArthur had told the Imperial Japanese government that in order to save face for the Emperor, they must take the blame for their actions so that the blame for Japan's war of aggression does not fall onto the Emperor. In other words, in order for the Emperor to remain status quo, he had to be spared from the blame. The war criminals killed themselves or they admitted to their war crimes and were executed. You can call them human scum or whatever and certainly they were racists and bastards but they were all loyal to their Emperor, as most Japanese are. And their sacrifice preserved the legitimacy of their Emperor.

And so that is why the Japanese people are "grateful" for these war criminals and continue to do them honor at the Yasakuni shrine. I personally do not agree or disagree with their worship but I think China needs to re-evaluate Japan's point of view. China seems to think that just because Korea and Vietnam were also attacked by the Japanese, somehow there is a bond between the 3 of us and that Japan is a common enemy. You can throw that out the window. There is no doubt that Japan DOES whitewash its textbooks but are the koreans and vietnamese innocent? If China wishes to truly look into it, they will find that both Koreas and Vietnam have plenty of anti-Chinese content in their education. Of course, the indications are subtle but the implications are there.

Why is China holding a double standard? Why use Japan as a scapegoat? Trade has suffered greatly because of this issue. The Koreans are benefitting greatly from China-Japan dispute economically. Why is China giving the Koreans such favoritism when Korea teaches its own people anti-Chinese content as well, possibly even more so than Japan? Chinese certainly need to re-evaluate who their friends are. Korea is no friend. And Japan is not an enemy.

Last time I checked, Korea never killed millions of Chinese in a war.

lol my thought exactly ^

Chinese should not sacrifice integrity for a little economic gain.

So what? Korea is no friend and China is treating korea with enormous economic benefits. Ever since Chinese-Japanese trade slowed down as a result of disagreements about history, Korea has aggressively been gobbling up the Chinese market whilst not letting China into the south korean market. South Korea seems to think it has some sort of god-given right to access the Chinese market whilst not giving an inch of their own. I thought they were a democratic country and believe in fair trade. Obviously they dont.

Chinese people are ignorant. Do they know how the chinese minorities in south korea in the 60's, 70's and 80's were treated? The chinatowns in south korea almost disappeared whereas in Japan, the chinatowns especially the one Yokohoma have thrived and even become tourist attractions. Korea's education system have done their own whitewashing of history with regards to China. Korea is certainly no ally. And I don't see why China cannot have normal relations with Japan.

Also, China whitewashes textbooks too. I doubt Chinese School children learn of the tiananmen square massacre..

I find it unfair that you bash Koreans and Vietnamese on this matter.

The tianenmen massacre was an internal issue. It had nothing to do with Korea or Vietnam or Japan. I said that Korea and Vietnam do their own share of whitewashing of history with regards to China. I could care less how they educate their citizens about their internal issues.

define "normal" relations. Its not as if Japan and CHina are at War. And you make it seem as if Koreans are the reason why Japan and China relations are floundering when this is clearly not the case.

Bad example but I agree.

do you have problems with reading comprehension? So two nations are either on friendly terms or at war? Don't be naive. And I never said koreans are the reason for China and Japan's floudering relations. Where the fu-k did you get that from? I said that due to the decrease of Japanese investment in China, Korea has gobbled up market that would of otherwise belonged to the Japanese. The Chinese government has even personally overseen granting south korean companies contracts that would have otherwise gone to Japanese companies.

Two nations don't have to be at war to have bad relations. Your intelligence level is very low and I don't know why I'm arguing with you.

Just because Korea and Vietnam never invaded China, we should treat them better than Japan EVEN THOUGH they whitewash their history as well and have their own history of hurting Chinese.

Do I need to remind you of the vietnamese boat people? Most of them weren't vietnamese. They were ethnic Chinese who were kicked out by the Vietnamese. Many of them died out in the open ocean on rafts.

South korea heavily discriminated against Chinese living in south korea and the chinatowns almost disappeared.

In recent history, Korea and Vietnam have treated Chinese MUCH worse than Japan has .



are you denying that Vietnam has not discriminated against Chinese and that their education system is full of anti-Chinese rhetoric?

No, I'm not denying but I'm saying is you're making it seems like South Korea and Vietnam's history education is very biased while China's education is not biased at all. It's East Asian you're talking about. Chinese historical books like shiji and other dynasties are all very biased and so are most Korean and Vietnam's historical books/records.

The chinese education system does not teach anything anti-korean or anti-vietnamese. I fully admit that there is full of anti-japanese rhetoric in Chinese education system but there is absolutely none towards korea and vietnam.

As for those ancient chinese historical books on Korea and Vietnam, well, I'm sorry but back then, Korea and Vietnam did not have their own writing system and so yeh, it might be biased but what alternative did you have?

And Japanese historians fully respect Chinese historical documents on Japan. Many of them refer back to them in their research whereas Koreans and Vietnamese try to re-create their own history at the expense of China.

Okay Hanfu, sorry for the misunderstanding.

If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, then don't offer your input. I do not mind arguments and people stating their points of view but in your case, you seem to lack reading comprehension skills and a general understanding of the world. You're not very wordly.

Maybe because Korea and Vietnam didn't play any major role that shaped China today, while China DID shape Korea and Vietnam what it is today. Why is China education system full of anti-japanese sentiment? Because Japan was an aggressive emperialistic nation who tried to invade China. So why CAN'T Vietnam do it since China has always been the agressive imperialistic nation to Vietnam since its beggining of the identity "Vietnamese".


I'm just saying Chinese historical books have ALWAYS been biased, so are historical books from Korea and Vietnam.


Uhm Vietnamese a lot of time refer to Chinese historical books (even though they know it's reallly biased) since Vietnam was incooperated in China for a thousand year.

I don't want to understand Japan's point of view because they refuse to understand our point of view. This thread is a joke right?

You do know how Japan became an economic success right? It was because of the korean war fought between koreans and Chinese.

Back then, who wasn't imperialistic? Examine european history or any history, who wasn't imperialistic? Napoleon is highly regarded in modern times even though he was an imperialistic bastard who went around causing war and destruction. That was just the way it was back then.

I don't see how China mistreated Vietnam in anyway in ancient times. What about all the civilization and cultural contributions it brought to Vietnam? At least vietnam hasn't gone the korean route which has said that had it NOT been for China's contributions, Korea would have independently developed into a great nation. That's like blaming your parents for not being millionaires and giving you a better life.

It's just like in Europe. The Roman Empire contributed a lot to european civilization. You don't see european civilizations complaining that the Romans sucked and that had it not been for them, they would have independently become much greater.

What great civilization in the world WAS NOT imperialistic? Every civilization conquered its way to greatness.



They are biased because they were written in Chinese. But legitimacy in history is often what came first rather than what came after. Those ancient chinese historical documents are more valued than the stuff that korean and vietnamese historians made up in modern times.



Like I said before, if you got nothing else to refer to, a biased source is better than no source and just for that, there should be SOME form or gratitude. I'm not saying koreans and vietnamese need to get down on their knees and kowtow but certainly, you can stop all the anti-chinese rhetoric.



I understand that. And there is nothing wrong with that. Provided that you don't think better of the koreans and vietnamese because in modern times, they are no more open-minded or friendly towards Chinese than the Japanese are.



no i assure you its not. i meant every word i said and no, im not a japanophile. im not saying china should be friends with japan. i just think they should have normal relations, just like between china and korea, and china and vietnam.



that sped up their economic development but japan was already an advanced modern nation with a lot of technological know-how. certainly, americans helped greatly but japan had been on the path of modernization since the 1870's with Emperor Mejji's reforms. They would have gotten to where they are today eventually, give or take a decade or so.

What do you suppose the PRC do? They already have a bunch of problems dealing with sino-japanese relations alone. You want the PRC to piss off relations with sk and vietnam? The PRC is on a good steady course right now. Why ruin a good thing? Koreans and vietnamese both agree that the PRC would become another world power. I don't think they want to piss off their giant neighbor.

Guess what? That's what most imperialistc nations always said, the French in fact said the thing to Vietnam because during the French colonization, they built up Vietnam's infracstructures. Guess what? Most of those cultural contributions were in fact used for French's exploitation. So were China. It subjected Vietnam into the tribute system that also exploited Vietnam's resources. Vietnam itself is very imperialistic, and I accept the fact that Cambodia's education is full of anti-Vietnamese rhetorics.


They would have if Roman Empire still exists today.


Then first China should stop anti-Japanese rhetoric, and then Vietnam would stop anti-Chinese rhetoric.

You are that trustworthy of Korea and Vietnam, eh? Wait and see. Once korea reunifies, watch what happens. The northeastern part of China is full of ethnic koreans. 3 million and a lot of them are concentrated along the Chinese-North korean border. Once korea reunifies, they're going to start claiming that part of China as belonging to them and using the ethnic koreans who have lived there for generations as proof.

As for Vietnam, in the 90's when they jumpstarted their economy, they did not wish to trade with China despite China being the most pragmatic trading partner. They went around the world asking Japan, Korea, Europe, Russia and even the US for investment but there wasn't enough coming in so they had to go back to good ol' China. That's how anti-Chinese they are.

I can't believe you trust them.

And how do you know the Japanese people aren't apologetic and feel guilty? Its true that most of the young generation of Japanese know nothing about what happened but thats opportunity for a fresh start. Relations can start anew and become normal. Sometimes the less you know bout one another, the better relations are.

I'm not saying China should piss of korea and vietnam. I'm saying they should stop with the anti-japanese crap and establish normal relations with Japan. Japan wants normal relations with China. ITs either China pisses off all THREE or they establish normal relations with all THREE. No more double standards.

But the French did not annex or have strong influence over Vietnam for as long as China did. It's true that initially when China invaded Vietnam, a lot of brutal things went on but after awhile, things settle down and after a thousand years, it becomes normal. If humans and civilizations did not conquer one another, we'd all be still living as millions of different kinds of tribes. How do you think civilizations develop? When one tribe conquers another and another and becomes more powerful.

My point is that Chinese influence on Vietnam has been for so long and so long lasting that its useless to even b!tch about it because its like b!tching at yourself. Vietnamese are to a certain degree, very sinicized.

And the same goes for Korea.

Also, tributary nations like Vietnam and Korea were not exploited. The gifts you brought to the Chinese emperor were ALWAYS repaid with more than you gave. That was how the system worked. It wasn't meant to keep the tributary nations poor. It was a symbolism thing. As long as they acknowledge Chinese superiority, China was obligated to protect them and oversee them.



Europeans almost unanimously admire the roman empire whereas koreans and vietnamese seem to think of Chinese civilization as detrimental to their own development. This is due to europe's prosperity and China's decay in the last 200 years. It's all about the money.

Vietnamese are not so extremist. I see that although they do distort their history, they still have an affinity with Chinese. Whereas Korea, with their new prosperity and nationalism, are willing to go as far as blaming their country's sad and horrific past on China because China failed to develop science or technology or whatever. Basically, their own backwardness was China's fault.

i have to disagree with you on the whole sino-japanese issue. Japan is in the now. What you are speculating is just that, speculation. Korea might is nowhere close to unifying and the whole koguryo issue is still being played by the prc. They are not stupid, they know what they are doing. In regards to Vietnam, they trust China as much as they trust the USA.

3 million koreans is not alot

No such thing in today's world.

True. I admit it is speculation but that doesn't mean there isn't any truth to it.



And I hope they never reunify. Helping Korea reunify will cost China dearly. And I never said koreans were stupid. But they are hot-headed and nationalistic almost to the extreme. Any action or actions they take can be justified by nationalism. They are a small country and its easy for them to agree on what course of action to take. And they are not a nation that is ruled by law, despite them being a democracy. You seem to be underestimating their nationalism and national will.



Well being that the US was once Vietnam's enemy #1, I'd say that Sino-Vietnamese relations must suck.

The thing is that vietnam insulted China. China supported Vietnam throughout their war against the US and when they won, they kicked out the ethnic chinese and then fought a border war with China. And then whey wanted to launch economic reforms, China was the last major country they went to establish trade even though China welcomed trade with Vietnam.

I disagree but if I articulate more about this, it would be off-topic, and there will be bunchs of flame posts from both sides (happens since the beggining of AF)


If you think about it. The development of these european nations were mostly AFTER the destruction of Roman Empire, while Vietnam and Korea were developing with China's agressive imperialism on their borders. Of course anti-Chinese sentiments WILL occur. China was a Roman Empire in Asia BUT it also was "the French empire in its peak" in Asia. By that I mean that bunches of other European nations mimic France's Versailles or the French language was the official monarchy language of England but they also fought constantly with the French and often held anti-French sentiments till this day.



Vietnam sided with Russia (partly because of the anti-Chinese sentiments) and that's why the relationship between China and Vietnam broke. Whatever you want to say but Vietnam had been screwed by China, USA, France, and Japan.

But what was the alternative for korea and vietnam? Say China isolated itself and did not bother with anyone else. There is a possibility that korea and vietnam would have turned out a lot better OR they could have turned out a lot worse. Since that didnt happen, we will never know.

But no offense but clearly, the vietnamese people were not an advanced people before they were annexed by china. if you follow the steps it takes for a civilization to develop, there are many key things and vietnam had none. and Neither did korea.

And what you said about european countries developing after the destruction of the roman empire. thats false. after the roman empire fell, europe entered the dark age where religious fanatics ruled. it was only after the renaissance in the 16th century that europe had begun to awaken and that was precisely also the time that china began to rot.

so you could say in a way that the roman empire's fall was a disaster to europe and that it took them almost 1,000 years to recover from it. in roman times, many technological and artistic innovations were developed and those things actually INSPIRED the european renaissance.


What was the reason for those anti-Chinese sentiments? Why were the ethnic chinese in vietnam treated so badly? China supported vietnam throughout your war with the US. This was during mao's reign when Chinese themselves did not have enough to eat and there was famine but we continued to support your country's war effort.

meh, i think its stupid to treat korea better. personally, im over it. i dont go looking for japanese to kill and stuff. i say, if your going to do something (like favor korea in trades) then dont do it small. do it big and get it over with (meaning war). otherwise dont do anything at all. dont go giving little pushes and brushing each other in the hallways, you wana fight? then fight already...

thats exactly what i said. China should either tell all 3 countries to stop with their whitewashing of history and anti-chinese rhetoric or establish normal relations with all 3. no more double standards by singling japan out, especially since japan has come a long way from their imperialistic heyday. they are nation ruled by law now and their new generation dont care for history and so there is opportunity for a fresh start.

Again your comparasion between China and Roman Empire are not completely right. You can compare China as Roman Empire and France at its peak.


The anti-Chinese sentiments were the fact Vietnamese people have always viewed Chinese people as imperialistic people, just as Chinese and Korean still view Japanese as imperialistic people. In fact, I think a lot of Chinese people WILL forever mistrust Japanese people, just as a lot of Vietnamese people WILL forever mistrust Chinese people.

Vietnam tried to banish Chinese people in Vietnam due to the Sino-Vietnamese War when Vietnam was in two front war (China and Cambodia). Either way, after that Vietnam's economy was bankcrupted,

I don't see how you can compare Chinese imperialism of Vietnam with Japanese imperialism of China. One ocurred long time ago in a different time and a different era. The other happened in recent history.

And China does not deny that it annexed Vietnam. It is well documented in Chinese history.

If the Vietnamese will continue to view Chinese peopel as imperialistic and as an enemy while at the same time, their own culture is heavily Sinicized, then I'd have to say you people are very narrow-minded. Even Korea admits that Japanese imperialism was a lot worse than Chinese imperialism and the two are not even the same thing.



China also supported Vietnam a great deal in Vietnam's war effort against the US. I think many vietnamese understimate this. Where do you think all your weapons and artillery came from? North Vietnam had no factories, no manufacturing and those that existed were probably bomed out by the Americans. And I know vietnamese propoganda likes to say that the soldiers stole weapons off the americans and fought with them but lets be realistic here, had it not been for China's support, north vietnam would not have won against the americans.

And yet, all that is forgotten just because of the cambodian issue and that was the reason for deporting hundreds of thousands of ethnic Chinese in Vietnam?

It sounds criminal. I've spoken to many Chinese who are descendents of chinese refugees from Vietnam and most of their stories are very sad.

When Korea discriminated against the chinese, it was a slow process and did not occur in violence. The Chinese simply went bankrupt and had to leave.

I can't believe the Vietnamese people don't feel any apologetic for this. And I can't believe Chinese people b!tch about Japanese imperialism and are ignorant of how the Vietnamese treated Chinese.

In the end weren't they just acts of imperialism? Maybe you have forgotten that Vietnamese history was just mere constant wars from its northern border to southern borders and then its civil war. I would say Vietnam will always have that anti-Chinese sentiments no matter what happen in the future. These sentiments had been passed down from generations to generations, therefore it had been ingrained in Vietnamese mind. In fact the anti-Chinese sentiments made Vietnam what it is today. Do you think China simply just gave up on its Annam province?



I would said Russia was the main supplier of Vietnam in Vietnam War and Vietnam had to pay all the debts for Russia.




Uhm have you heard of Vietnamese boat people stories?. They're just as sad as Chinese ethnics. In fact you could open a thread about it in Vietnam's forum, I'll bet you there will be sadder stories about Vietnamese boat people.

The point is China attacked Vietnam and Vietnam didn't attack China after the Indochina War. Quite the blame game.

chinese today dont care about vietnam.

and honestly, if thats the attitude of the vietnamese people, i dont see why sino-vietnamese relations should be pursued. why pursue relations with a nation that hates you? china should just have left vietnam to develop on its own in ancient times.

no offense to the other southeast asian countries but i think vietnam is the strongest with the exception of thailand. and both vietnam and thailand have strongest chinese influence in the region. i dont mean to be big-headed but i believe chinese "imperialism" contributed to the spirit and drive of the thai and vietnamese people. That same aggression and ambition you despise about the Chinese has been passed onto your people.




no doubt the soviet union supplied a great deal but so did china. i doubt the soviet union was the main supplier.



most of the boat people were chinese, not vietnamese.

No most of boat people are Vietnamese escaped communism, but lot of them are Chinese or part Chinese. Plz show your source that most boat-people are Chinese. Never heard of it before. Vietnam was open from Chinese cultural influence but want completely independent from China. The fact is sinicification was still going on long after Vietnam became independent from China. Vietnam is a sovereign nation and they want to maintain so. Anti-China rhetoric is just purely political self-preservation. As long you got it, it will make this world a better place to live in.

Possible chances of flaming. Closed.