I'm sure most of us has heard about the conditions for Hmong back in Laos. I don't know if this video's already been posted but I just saw it. It disgusts me so much to see what the Lao goverment is doing to the Hmongs over there. This happening to women and children!!!!! *CAUTION* Don't view the video if you have a weak stomach.
http://www.rebeccasommer.com/UN/4.html

I didn't watch the video...i don't have a strong stomach...but I do agree that it is very sad to see what is happening to our people that are left behind with no help from anywhere. It's also sad that we can't do anything to help them and now...every time that i hear my dad said "when we get our country back" I always think...it's not going to happen because they have to few recourses and not enough help...their efforts are wasted...they need to have saved, not continue something that is bound to lead to failure. But we have no strong hmong organization that can help them. Even though there are educated people among us, it seems as if we are helpless. I'm sure the reason is that most of us are still in school, or too busy with our own lives....but yet...those reasons itself are still just excusses...

Thank You for addressing this issue.

Where's thepimpraja at? He needs to see this. I never knew any of this until I read about it from the Hmongs. And thepimpraja was oblivious to this fact.

EDIT: Now, not all Khon Lao are like this toward Hmong people. So, don't assume that I'm promoting hate for Lao people. But this kind of stuff did/does happen and it can't be denied.

Its really interesting to read this; all this time, the Lao posters on AF talk about how Thailand was negative to the Lao refugees etc etc, and all this time, their own country does this to the Hmong.

Irony, I say.

OH lord buddha, how can they call themselves theravadins when they impose such attrocities on innocent people?!

but then agian, this has better not be no propaganda just to make countries like the US listen. .

^Man, don't make talk about the Khmer Rouge. I think that was more of an atrocity.

edit: I meant to say, Don't make me talk about the KR...lol

wow i never knew lao refugees were also part of the laotian govt. reason why there were lao refugees was because of the laotian govt.

so why don't you actually discuss the issue instead pointing the finger making other people look bad.

mam i'm so proud to know some folk still mention about getting our country anyways is not that we cant do anything about hellping pev nco hmoob but its becuz we chose not to do it and like what ur thinking there we dont believe that we can do it

werd

omg the boy with his intestines hanging out and his hand messed up...that was very graphic.

i'll be back to discuss this issue and point fingers later. kind of too much pictures of that little boy in my head to think of anything right now to say.

[edit]
i was just thinking. how did the intestines of the boy come out in a such a little hole...well it wasn't too little but still pretty small for those intestines and so much of the intestines. altho the hand really looked real and very...

I feel sorry for little children...... they deserve juctice!

Damn that fu-kin' pisses me off. Hey Reagan fu-ker, is this enough proof for your blindass???

Lao Government(communist), not the lao people.

yes you're right...all of this happened because of the communist.....and because of a bunch of old people who thinks that they can rule a country like this ,with ignorant people ...

watching this makes me sick ... in order for this to impact people ... we need to have someone who is able to play this to the world for them to see... if i am able to get a copy of this or burn it some how ... i am going to send it to my local new station! sure its not much, but its a start ... others can follow.

it just seems werid that we can have this on the net ... but none of the world has seen it.

ok ... it is not possible for me to save it ... does anyone know how of i can save it? or find the maker of the movie?

What country are you guys talking about?

I was looking in the forum discussion on the subject: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showt...;highlight=laos





Dont be so quick to judge, where are the compassionate Thais?

There are 6,558 ethnic Hmong living 2 Hmong Refugee Camps in Khao Kho district in Thailand’s Phetchabun province.But Thai gov attempt to push them back to Laos.But the Lao gov is refusing to allow them back.

http://www.hmongtoday.com/displaynews.asp?ID=1940

Also, Vietnam have been known to collaborate in joint raids against Hmongs

fu-k..................................................

Those people were originally from Laos, and should be the sole responsibility of the Lao government; instead of dumping refugees into Thailand--the LAO PDR should take initiative and show to the international community and to ASEAN of its compassion--instead of relying on its people and its minorities to cross the border to Thailand for 'opportunities'.

A bit unfair, dont you think?

+++++++

It really shows the inadequacy of the Lao government in its failure to address its own domestic problem. All at the expense of the Thai people (our tax money being used) and the hmong refugees. Its disgusting how you try to turn/twist around and blame the Thai government for not 'taking care' of something that the Lao government started and is RESPONSIBLE for.

No one is shifting blame here, i was illustrating the depth of the problem.

This is not an issue of oppurtunities, its one of human rights. These are not illegal immigrants but refugees. What does tax or oppurtunities have anything to do with this?

[quote name='Silent_Nanashi' date='Oct 9 2006, 04:50 PM' post='2376907']
What country are you guys talking about?

a land call "Long Cheng" where the communist lao now invaded

wasnt that place already apart of Laos?

I did not realize that the Hmong had their own sovereign nation, I always thought they were a minority that settled in SEA, do you have any info?

Watching this video, it broke my heart... I really don't know what to say or how to react. This made me realize [time and time again] how there are so many horrible things going on around this world that really can't be solved as one's heart may wish.

What I don't understand is how can people simply destroy people... how can people destroy what is beautiful? I feel the world of MAN (plus politics and power) is a failure when it comes to things like this.

Toruturing, cold-blooded killing, raping, and chemical attacking has been happening to the Hmong and silenced by the Lao Government [and who knows.. maybe even the U.S. Government]. However, I believe that the only silence we will have is when the Voices of the Hmong have diminished. This video is a token in time for us to do something ... sitting feeling helpless is helpless.

The idea of peace is so simple, yet it is such a complicating goal to
reach when only few hands are reaching out.

BTW.. thanks for sharing...

I WAS going to hit the bars tonight but after seeing this.. I feel a little too sad to head out

Um truth is they never had a sovereign nation in SEA. That land long cheng is part of laos. Hmong people have only been living in laos for around two hundred years and the lao king accepted them into lao lands.

My main concern is your last statement's dimeanor towards the Thai people--as was expressed in your sarcasm. I found that to be rather rude and offensive--considering how many refugees we, the Thai people, have taken and housed during the paset 3 decades. Millions upon millions from cambodia, laos, vietnam, and burma. At this moment--we are also handling the hundreds of thousands of ethnic Tai-Shan (who are being massacred/killed in the numbers by the Burmese junta) and at the same time taking in refugees from laos (hmong ethnics).

Dont tell me about 'human rights' and responsiblity--because the Thai government shows TOO MUCH compassion concerning neighbours and their problems--specially on human rights issues or human trafficking. Something Laos doesnt show.

+++

I personally find it extremely hypocritical how you show some kind of disdain towards the Thai government on this issue (considering how much we contribute to refugees). And as a Laotian, Im sure your family were refugees from the laos--who fled your own country--because of the rise of the LAOPDR--and inconsequentially most probably stayed in a refugee camp in Thailand. Until you were given refugee status to the United States/ or whatso ever it may be. Count your blessings that THAILAND was COMPASSIONATE enough to house lao refugees. Had we not--your entire family, would have most definately been killed by the LAOPDR.

Just take a moment and ponder to yourself about that 'possibility'.

Count your blessings and stop judging.

Siri, you're right. After all, Khon Thais are the ones doing all the hard work so Khon Lao can continue to enjoy their laid-back lifestyle in Muang Lao.

What are you talking about..you mean the corrupt officials of LAOPDR?

Yea..they get old and fat--but the average kon lao are poor and forced to swim across the mekong to thailand--to find jobs--to find a work etc. The Lao government cant even take care of its majority populace--how can we expect it to take care of minority peoples such as the Hmong.

***sighes***

Thats were Thailand comes in---always ready to help. (The tax money of the hard working thai citizen being used, of course).

Sir, the average Khon Lao might be poor, but their not killing each daily like in Thailand. I read somewhere that Thailand has one of the highest crime rate in the world.

Homocide is practically found in every society in the world.

The only reason why you dont hear alot of homocide in laos is because you dont have a free media in laos. Whereas in Thailand--its pretty much a free society.

That and Thailand's population is over 14 times the size of Laos. Think proportionality.

++++

But thats besides the point of the subject matter. Lets not digress, shall we?

You're right, Siri. The economy of Thailand is 10 times or whatever the size of Laos, it's hard to sustain the 70+ million Thais, that's why, unfortunately, millions of Thais resort to a life of crime and violence. I see your point.

No. You're wrong again.


The population of Thailand is roughly 70 million and the population of Laos is roughly 5 million. That makes Thailand literally 14 times the size of Laos (population wise).

On terms of economics. Lets get down to basics, shall we?

The Thai GDP (purchasing power parity) was at $ 560.7 Billion in 2005.

The Thai GDP (per capita) was at $8,300.00.

++

Now compare that to Laos--

Laos' total GDP (purchasing power parity) is at $12.13 Billion

And Laos' GDP (per capita) is at $ 1900.00


+++

Overall, Thailand's economy is more than 10 times the size of Laos. Its literally 46.22 TIMES the size of Laos' economy.

+++

On the basis of crime rate--like I said, its a national factor in which all nation states have to deal with. The US has crime rates, so does South Africa, so does China, etc.

Get the point?

how did you end up talking about thailand once again

Initial V, I was clearing a major misunderstanding pimpraja had on basis of economics and population. Ignorance is a problem I have a problem with--i was merely providing basic national economic information to pimpraja.

+++

And this does relate to the topic because the lao government was called into question--the information i provided proves pivotal because it shows the economic backwardness of Laos--proving its inability to cope with its own domestic problem.

As a result of this--problems will arise such as minority rights--per se--the Hmong population--being persecuted.

+++

Its rather easy to correlate one with the other, considering the gravity of the situation.

I can't believe some of you guys in Asiafinest can be so naive, and some just become out-right opportunistic, and so easily manipulated by Psycho John who hates the LPDR and Lao people with passion and blindness.

Could you look at the video carefully and try to make sense out of what you see before you jump on conclusion? Looking at the first three planes flying one after another; you even see the pilot in close caption in one plane while still fying in the air. It's like a movie made by a poor amateur. The plane that lashed out bombs is probably from the Vietnam war period. It looks like the bombing of the Ho Chi Minh trail in eastern Laos by American planes stationed in Oudone Thani during the Vietnam War. How would you guys expect the Lao PDR to have that kind of sophisticated plane lashing out tons of bombs like that that killed hundreds or thousands innocent people whithout being condemned and protested by the outside world.

The scene of the group of young boys sitting side-by-side is also set-up. Do you see any wound person in the group except the blind young guy who talked.

Look at the boy with his intestine outside! Do you think he could have survived to be filmed like that if that were caused by the bombing. He could have already been dead.

Do you know what is Saysomboun? It's just a small mountainous and not easily penetrable area north of the Vientiane Province where a couple of thousands of Hmongs still take refuge and continue to fight against the LPDR goverment. There are almost a half-million Hmongs in Laos, many of whom now live in the lowland areas with the general Lao population. Have you ever visited Laos lately and seen towns like Km 52 and others? Do you know that thousands of Hmong people and an increasing number of them are visiting Laos each year? If the LPDR and Lao people hate Hmongs why there are many officials and representatives of Hmong origin in the LPDR government?

Does it occur to you to ask the question of why those 2 thousands or so Hmongs continue to fight hopelessly and how could they survive without support from the outside? What are their motives? Don't you think they have been manipulated all along by some greedy people abroad who have taken advantage of their own kind so that they can continue to live confortably in the western world?

I didn't want to interfere in here because I don't want to be accused of being a communist symphatizer. But sometimes I feel it's too much and too obvious for me to keep quiet.

dumb@ss f*ck i understand u woulndt want to believe tis if its ur own peeps who did this but the boy didnt got his intestine out by the bomb you ignorant f@g he got shot while in search for food oh yeah and if u did watch the newest update notice he didnt survive stupid dumb@ss communist b*tch all tese are setup? r u saying all these is as well? factfinding.org go check it out urself

Ah Ha! Now I understand why some of you guys have become so psychotic and nut about this issue. So, you spent your time listening to this so-called factfinding thing.

How many times during the last several years, this FFO came up with new videos showing the horrendous bratality and rape committed by the LPDR soldiers aganist the peaceful Hmong children and elders in the jungles of Laos? And how many of those times, those news ended up disappearing like bad quality amateur movies from the international scenes? If all those videos were true, then the LPDR could have been protested and boycotted against by the likes of the European Union and the US (except, of course, for those few congress representatives who have been heavily lobbied by some in Mennisota).

If you really feel for your peeps, like you said, have you ever had the gut to ask yourselves the question of why those few poor people are left to suffer and to fight hopelessly in those jungles? Truth is both the LPDR and these poor people are suffering from this game! Then, who profit from their suffering?

There are so many bad things one can accuse the communist regime of committing, and the FFO can be truly helpful on this matter. And in this specific case, instead of helping those poor people get out of there, you guys and the FFO simply shoot yourselves in the foot! You and the FFO ends up creating yourselves the nickname of Fact Fabricating Org.

its dumb people like u tat the fact doesnt gets anywhere than it is now nvm its useless postin to an idiot like u

LOL let's be a little more mature please? i think we can all participate in a little healthy debate without calling each other 'fags'.

+warning

EDIT: vewge beat me to it :O

It's sad that you could not do anything better than calling names when you cannot come up with answers, and prove my earlier point regarding the type of people who listen blindly to FFO. The Hmongs in the jungles of Laos obviously need help, but so far you guys and the FFO can only hurt them.

I tend to believe that these stuff still does go on and still does happen. Though I didn't watch the clip I still believe that the hmong people in Laos are being mistreated. I also believe that sites such as:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15380
http://www.voanews.com/lao/archive/2006-06...FTOKEN=99520110
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3656734.stm
are not there just for the mere enterainment of people.

I agree that if people merely just broadcast it anywhere they want to then they hurt more thant they help. We really need the help of the American govenment, but during times like this we could kiss that good bye. Plus it's hard to get hmong people together for a cause like this. Honestly, some of us don't even know where to start. By people just broadcasting it and not doing anything such as creating a movement then we're only letting the evil people on the hidding sites of our people, thus helping them to be killed more easily. But if you think about it, where do we start one, how do we start one, when our own people won't come together to help. We all sit here and complain about, but yet we don't have a unity anywhere. How could we call for help...who's going to help us if we don't help ourselves. For those of you that know about The March to the White House, you guys know that, it was a waste becasue according to them we were not politically important enough for the US to even acknowledge (in the media) that such things are going on. If no one is willing to do anything and if those that are wanting to are too few then there's nothing we can do.

A few years ago, when the first video showed victims, starved and malnourished kids and elders in those jungles, there were reactions and indignations from people of all backgrounds and anger against the LPDR regime. Later, that video became suspicious with some fabrications in it. A few subsequent videos also caused stirs and condamnation but later were found to be unreliable not only, as expected, by the LPDR regime but also by other people. At the end, people end-up discrediting the sources of those videos and the FFO.

Otherwise, there were demonstrations in Paris France two years ago when a French journalist went to the jungles and brought videos and stories filmed by herself showing the starved and malnourished children. People believed that was a more reliable source.

The one document made for the BBC also appears more balanced and reliable.

But what can we small people do when people with even bigger influence cannot do much? The problem will remain as long as people from powerful countries don't intervene beside condemnations. One has to be smart enough to ask why they refuse to do more since they have the power to do so? there must be some reasons! I also find it hypocritical that some people just like to point their fingers to only the LPDR. If similar situations that have occurred in the poor and weak Laos, happened in other countries, like Vietnam, China, or even Thailand, those poor jungles people might have been already eradicated and might not even have a chance to be filmed and shown to the outside world.

When one read what was written below by the Amnesty International about what those few people remaining in the jungles in Laos really want, one will realize the problem is much more complex and one cannot simply point fingers to the LPDR alone. For me, those poor people are victims not only of the LPDR but also of the outside world, some of whom take advantages of the pains and miseries of these people for their own agenda.

This is an extract from a text from one of the links that Princess posted above. It summarizes the complexity of the issue:

What are the chances for the future? What do you think will happen in Laos?

The Hmong simply ask for freedom and democracy and to be left alone with a piece of land to farm and education for their children.

They mistrust the government and so fear surrender. They ask for the international community to intervene in supervising their exit from the jungles to live as equal citizens in Lao society.

They are running out of food supplies and if the international community, human rights organizations and the Red Cross don't gain access to these desperate people, they will eventually die out.

What are other governments in the region and around the world doing, or what should they be doing? Is it worth lobbying the UK government to put pressure on Laos?

Unfortunately there is little interest in this forgotten conflict. Laos is a poor and repressive communist country suffering years of isolation.

There are now talks and trade agreements being signed by the Americans and others, who now see Laos as a friendly country and no longer the enemy.

This, however, doesn't help the Hmong - neither the Americans want to acknowledge their responsibility, and nor do the Lao authorities want to solve their ethnic problem for fear of a collapse in their new tourist economy.

It is imperative for all countries, including the British government, to engage with the Lao government with diplomatic sensitivity to solve this humanitarian crisis of a people with a food supply fast diminishing.

warn me all you want

pffaaHAHAHAHAHA !!!!! wasting all tose time typing all tose texts doesn't prove anything to an idiot who's tryin to sound al professional in here however the fact is out there anywais im thru wit postin to an IDIOT

You better give up, rather than continuing to embarass yourselves by using those name-callings to describe yourselves.

yeyeyeyeyeyeh i describe myself from all tose previous post an "idiot" but wat makes u inferior to an idiot was u kept postin to an idiot(didnt tink i was goin 2 but guess i felt like lettin u no)

Bounthy, Although I like to read both sides of the story, the problem with the Hmong is a realistic one. Over 6,500 hmong from Laos flooded to the Thai border on 2005 alone; this is not counting the lao who flock across the mekong everyday to thailand from laos (over 300 lao illegal immigrants are caught everyday, imagine how many more are able to successfully cross the border?).

This shows you the gravity of the conditions in Laos in order to make people leave the country in such horde-like conditions.

In no way am I saying that the Lao are not entitled to live in Thailand, but im just playing a little bit of devil's advocate here.

++++

If kon Lao are so eager to flock to thailand in the droves, imagine the hmong in laos?

++++

I do not doubt that there are crimes against humanity being inflicted on the Hmong minority in Laos by the Lao government; perhaps not by the Lao civilian people, but definately by Laopdr forces.

dejsiab just stating his own view, and I think we should just consider it. Besides, he is of hmong blood and this is his OWN people, he has the right to feel for his people, and abhor the conditions that his people went through; I am sure i would be the same if I were in his shoes. As well as you too, bounthy, when you and your family were forced out of Laos by the communist forces.

Siri:

I understand your points, but as you can clearly see it's out of the context of this topic. The illegal immigration of people from Laos, be it Lao or Hmong, into Thailand is a fact. But it has not entirely to do with the Lao and Hmong issue in Laos. Rather, it's a general trends of illegal immigration from poorer countries to any richer country, be it from the communist Laos, the dictator Burma, or the struggling new democratic Cambodia. For comparison, there is not much illegal immigration problem between Thailand and Malaysia. As a human being, each of us will always try to look for better living conditions anywhere in the world, if we cannot find those at home.

The real issue we have been talking about here is "How can the Lao government deny this?", i.e. deny the atrocities committed against the Hmong people in Laos?

As you know, this problem has been going on for years. And after following this issue from both the inside and outside sources, I sense hypocrisy going on here and that was reflected by the reactions in my previous posts.

No doubts, the LPDR has tried to get rid of people who had fought and continue to fight against them. These include many former soldiers who had sided with the US againt the Pathet Lao, be it Lao or Hmong, or any other ethnic groups. They have and will use any means to keep these people at bay and rid them from Laos. And here comes Thailand who forms a long and conveniently porous border with Laos. If one cannot fight against the LPDR from within, one will fight from the outside, or from both. And there are no denials that atrocities and accusations have occurred.

My point here is that what has been going on in Laos is not entirely because of the LPDR atrocities against the innocent and peaceful Hmongs in Laos.

As I have said earlier, there are several hundreds of thousands of Hmong living in Laos, many are now represented in the government, without denying there are still many poor Hmong, as there are many poor Lao, in that poor country. Now, can someone in his/her right mind ask the question of why there are two thousands or so of Hmong still fighting against that government and starving themselves and their kids in that small Xaysomboun jungle region? What are their PURPOSES? How could they survive without help from outsiders? What are the motives of these people and the outsiders who continue to keep them alive and to continue to fight a war they can no longer win?

If the videos showing the LPDR atrocities against the innocents kids in the jungles were entirely authentic, why the outside civilized and powerful countries of the world did not sanction or boycott against that crual government. Instead, the LPDR has been granted a normal trade relation status by the US. In response to the accusations of atrocities, the LPDR come up with their own photos showing innocent passengers and students being ambushed and murdered while on their buses between the capital and northern cities.

There are solutions to this problem, which do not depend only on the LPDR side. The outsiders who continue to help those Hmongs in the jungles know these. The real victimes here are the innocents kids in the jungles and the innocents passengers and students in the buses and the country of Laos.