ok...so thai chat maybe is not thr right place for this but anyway. i recently was talking to my fahter in law. he told me he is 1/2 mawn people. i didnt get the chance to ask him about that. as he has to go on business. anyway i would be slightly embarassed to be as ignornat as i am
so i thought i would ask here.
who are the mawn people?
what connections with thailand?
and can anyone give me some cultural aspects?
thanks to anyone who can tell me anything about these people.


i m not sure how to spell it in thai but im guessing..... มออน (?sp)

Mon maybe? dunno.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_people

mon like those from burma?

Mon.

Thai Mon or Thai Raman. Corky, check out my thread--i posted a picture thread about the Thai Raman (Thai Mon people).




Mon people are the original inhabitants of central Thailand, specifically the Chao Phraya River Basin. They had a settlement before the Tais established Ayuthaya in the 13th century, it was called Siamapbura. The Mon are closely related to the Khmer people, linguistically speaking.

You can say that the Mon had a very pivotal influence/role in the creation of the 'Ayuthayan/Siamese identity'. That is why I say, 'the Mon are us and we are them'.

+++++++

Some information about the Thai Raman (Mon).
-------



http://www.answers.com/topic/mon-people

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Some pictures of Mon people:

hmm....dont think ive ever met a mon before.

ah....the mon people

fantastic thanks
have you any personal experience ...?


those are the very ones thanks.


as always siri you are a bastian of knowledge. thanks. definately those mon.....the picture sums it up. the guy second from the left is the image of my father in law!! they certainly consider themselves 100% thai.
thanks folks!!
you are getting an irish good will blessing laced with a little irish luck.
i hear if you top that off with a guinnes you are officially as lucky as the irish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_language


If you're interested in the language.



http://www.museumfire.com/burma.htm


For music

The pleasure is mine, Corky. I personally have a strong interest on the Mon, which spans back to when I was still a child, probably when I was 8 y/o.

On that note, i wouldnt be surprised if most central Thais have some kind of Mon blood--since there was such a great intermingling of the two peoples (Tais and Mon) when Ayuthaya was established. Let it also be known that His Majesety even claims Mon blood, as his direct ancestor, King Buddhayodfa Chulaloke (Rama I the Great) was part Mon.

Mons had a rather important role in Ayuthayan/Siamese society during our foundational years. The Mons were the sepository of religious upbringing, and ritualistic rule. Much of which would later become auspicious 'Ayuthayan Divine Kingship' were rather influenced by the Mon as well as the Khmers (later on, when Ayuthaya would conquor the Khmer Empire). But it was undoubtedly Monnic Hindu-esque style of rule and religious zealotry that would placate the fledgling Chao Phraya River Basin civilization of Ayuthaya into a bustling, prosperous city among cities.

Let it also be known that Mons were key players in religion, many of them being Brahmin priests, and literary masters, who would in turn teach their knowledge to the new masters, the Tai. Generations later, after Mon and Tai were integrated as one--supplemented the creation of the 'Ayuthayan' identity. From which, would evolve in its own right centuries later till the present.

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Im not surprised if your father in law is very proud/exalted to be a Thai. He afterall has lineage to a proud race of men, which are directly influencial in the very foundation of the society you and your family are living in.

But thats just my own 'nationalistic' point of view

I also start the Mon thread before

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...=58814&st=0

In nonthaburi provine Koh kret Mon settlement and mon architech and art

If you wanna know more about Mon just go to Koh kret (the island in the middle of Chaopraya river)
Mon is the master of art and architech bro.

i must say its a very agreeable point of view i have been readina bit also and it sems the 2 peoples are intrinsically linked as you say. i think i can now recognise the sort of mon features a abit as well.....but that could be my imagination...


thanks bro. so is that island specifically for mon people to demonstrate their art/culture.
my father in law is form nonthaburi but not the island you mention.
thanks for the link too bro!

no one mention the nyah kur, the mon who live in thailand, i think many people in mainland sea have some sort of mon ancestry.

The food on that Island is very nice espacially the fish cake.

The relationship between the Tai Mon is comparable to that of the Frankish Germanic tribes and the Roman Empire. In the beginning, when the Romans took over Frankish lands (Gaul), the two states were enemies and fought many countless wars, most noted were the wars Caesar Julius initiated, which would lead to the conquest of the Gaulic Franks.

During the first years of post-conquest/colonizational years, the two peoples (Roman and Gaulic) were still hostile, but after centuries of integration, the Gauls lost their indentity, and became 'Romanized Germani tribes'--leading to the creation of this 'Fanco identity'. Totally different from its original Gaulic identity, and latinized like the Romans, but unique in its own way.

++++

Ayuthaya/Siam's relationship with the Mon is quite similar to this; in that the Ayuthaya/Siamese Kingdoms did adopt much from Mon influence in our foundational years, but there was still a heavy level of preservation of the kingdom's indigenous 'Tai' traits. Language, writing, dance, regalia and such remained exceptionally Tai, however, did borrow and were modified in accordance to its region, and to the influencial powers/people that lived in the kingdom (particularly the Mon, in the beginning).

Hope that helped.

^^ Agreed

but if you really want to seek out Mon-ness or Mon culture then you must visit southern Burma ( if and when it opens up )

Siri's explanation of how the two cultures adapted and assimilated is no more so true than in lower Burma. There are both more Mon speaking people and Mon blooded people there than anywhere else. They are intrinsic in the fabric of Burmese culture in lower Burma just as the Shan are in the fabric of Upper Burma.

If there is a Monland at all then it starts from Pegu and runs halfway down the Malay peninsula and includes much of central Thailand.


Hell , I call for a unification of Upper Burma including Mandalay , Shan States , Lan NA , Lan Xang ( Laos ) and Issan ( with Chiang Mai as capital ) and separation from ...


Pegu / Yangon / Mawlamyaing / Bangkok / Ayutthaya and Cambodia who can all form a super state of lowlanders with the Mon / Khmer ethnicity in common. ( you can have Ayutthaya as capital again )

The geography / history and ethnicity makes sense.


The reason why separation of nation states did not occur this way has nothing to do with ethnicity and probably more to do with needing/wanting access to the sea and controlling trade routes.


The reason why the mon people do not have their own country.


@ corky

If you ever get the chance to travel Burma you will notice that Southern Burmese look central "thai" and northern Burmese look like they're from Laos or Lan Na ( Chiang Mai )

mon have the closest association with the major ethnic khmer, they are close like laos and thais? They resemble khmers.

some pics.

Good writing, Siri. But I would argue with this part. Mon influence is a Theravada Buddhist one and they influenced Buddhist literature. It was rather the Khmer who influenced Siam's Brahmanism and Brahmanic literature (like Ramakien).

^^

Mon closest to Khmer ?

Ethnically a very big YES

Culturally not for centuries.

The Tai wedged apart the Mon Khmer people in gaining access to the sea. The Burmese squashed them from the North . Culturally both nations absorbed the Mon-ness . Culturally the Mon both of Thailand and BUrma are the same but quite different to the Khmer.

Central Thailand has both Mon-nes and Khmer-ness . Lower Burma just has Mon-ness.

As i've previously pointed out in another thread : SE ASian history has been about the continuous southwards movement of peoples from the Tibet China areas .

One day we will all be moved further south by the Chinese .

I cannot speak for Laos or Vietnam ( although I would guess that the experience is similar ) but Northern Burma has become very Chinese including the northern capital of Mandalay which has been economically annexed by China over a 20 year period.


Now you will hear mandarin and the various Yunnanese dialects spoken about town as much as you will hear Burmese or Shan being spoken. Most shop signs are now written in Chinese , English and Burmese ( it seems in that order )


There is a running joke in Mandalay that everytime there is a fire in Mandalay the traditional wooden Burmese houses are replaced by steel and concrete Chinese town houses on several levels and the people in the street get lighter skinned.


You will still see in general that apart from pockets of sea faring Chinese-ness ( eg Yangon , Bangkok , Singapore , alot of Vietnam coast etc) the populations become visually darker the further south you go , and features become Mon-Khmer looking at the Yangon / Bangkok / Phnom Penh latitudes and then looking more Malay / Indonesian as you progress further south.

The original inhabitants were of course Australoid and are now found rarely on the mainland .

Look at the various Ramayana interpretations in SE Asia and see how the ogres or cannibals are depicted . You will notice that the features are somewhat Australoid ( broad face , prominent brow , flared nostrils etc ).

This is how I think our mainly mongoloid ancestors saw them.















Anyway my point is that affinity has less to do with ethnicity than with common ground formed when having to live with one another.

Burma is sadly currently failing in this regard. This is not because of generalised ethnic hatred but because the regime finds it hard to deal with any opposition by use of anything other than violence.

However , I am continually amazed by how many people on this forum ( mainly educated SE Asians who lived abroad ) confuse nationalism with ethnocentric bigotry . We live on an incredibly fragile earth and our time on this planet will be relatively short lived.


Let us learn to get on whatever you are & wherever you're from.


Enough ranting ...



@ joost_leaki BTW great pictures of a Mon couple in traditional garb. Where did you get it from?

Here's another ...

Is that Schwedagong pagoda built by mon? It in d south of Burma so I guess

The founders were the brothers Tapussa and Bhallika probably natives of Suvannabhumi or Paukkharavati. As for their ethnicity : who knows . They may well have even been Indian.

All three cultures the Thai / Mon / Burmese claim Suvannabhumi 'Golden Land' as their own.

What is without doubt is that Suvannabhumi was in what is now lower Burma .

As for the ethnicity of the people there : it is likely that they were of Austro - Asiatic origin , probably Mon-Khmer.

The Burmese ( Burmans ) and Tai were relatively late comers into mainland SE Asia.

The Shwe Dagon as you see it now is most definitely Burmese and it's current size is 18th century.


Here is one version of events ...








The legend has it that some 2,500 years past, when Gotama Buddha was on his quest to attain enlightenment, at the same time there lived in the Yamanya Taing of Paukkharavati country, two merchant brothers by the name of Tapussa and Bhallika. The two brothers were trading along the coastal areas from India to Suvannabhumi.



After Bodhisatta Gotama has gained the enlightenment, he went through the bliss of Emancipation (Vimutti Sukha) for 49 days of fasting and concentration practice to reflect on his discoveries: the four Noble truths and the doctrine of the law of dependent origination. He woke up from the jhanas concentration and was in the mood to receive food for nourishment. A female Deva, the mother of the two merchant brothers from their previous existence, noted that her two sons were in the vicinity on their trading journey with 500 caravans. The Deva manifested herself in the form of female serpent (naga) and instructed them to offer food to the Buddha. She directed them to the location and asked them to offer their choicest food to the Buddha. The two merchant brothers then took their choicest foods (cakes and honey) and approached the Buddha to offer alms to the Buddha.



The Devas of the four kings at that time knowing that the Buddha will need the alms bowl to receive the food, offered the Buddha the alms bowl. The Buddha received the food with the alms bowl and partake the alms food. The two brothers were delighted of their offering and asked the Buddha to receive them as his lay disciples. They then took refuge in the Buddha and Dhamma, the Buddha has not establish Bhikkhu Sangha order at that time, so they could only took refuge in the two jewels. Since, the two brothers are returning to the Yamanya City in Suvannabhumi (now Thaton), they beg the Buddha something for remembrance and reverence. The Buddha gave them eight strands of hairs relics and instructed them with the proclamation:



“I shall proclaim you two as my future sons who will carry my dispensation in to the future. So take these eight strands of hair and enshrined them at a stupa in the Theiguttara Hill in the land where my Dispensation will flourish for a long time in the future. ”



Not many knew that the dialect used at that time was Magadha. The Buddha spoke to them in Magadha dialect when he made the proclamation. Tapussa reproduced the exact Buddha’s proclamation in Magadha with paraphrasing in Myanmar. ( **** ) They put the hair relics in a casket and continue their journey back by sea to the Yamanya taing, Suvannabhumi.



Okkalapa King



In the Suvannabhumi region, at that time, there lived in the forest a holy ascetic hermit holy man. One day, on his way to collecting alms food, he found a large Melamu bud hanging on the Melamu fruit tree. He took the bud home, curious of the size of the Melamu fruit. Miraculously after some time, the bud opens up and from the bud emerges a baby girl whom he named her Melamu. When she was of age, she grew up to be a beautiful young damsel.



At that time, the Sakka of the King of the thirty-three Devas heaven notices that the girl would one day bear a son who would be the donor of a stupa enshrined with the Buddha hair relics. It is only fitting that Sakka should be the one who must father a son with Melamu. Therefore, Sakka descended to earth. He manifested himself as a young man, and approached the hermit to ask his daughter Melamu in marriage. Agreeing to the young man proposal, the young man and Melamu got married. Melamu soon conceived in her a baby. The Sakka in Cogniito then went back to his heavenly realm. Soon after, Melamu delivered a son. Sakka came back again when the baby came of age and named the boy Okkalapa. Sakka before he left for his heavenly abode left a message to Melamu stating that the son will one day become the ruler and he will build a stupa enshrining Buddha hair relics at Theinguttara Hill.



The Arrival of Hair Relics



As instructed by Buddha, the two brothers sold their merchandise and quickly started their journey back. On their way by sea, they met King Atjjhatta who took two hairs from them and another two hairs by the king of naga, Jayasena for their own reverence. The incident happened while they were sailing near Mawthinzun, the place well known as the abode of the Naga King. They arrived in Suvannabhumi only with four hair relics. The king Okkalapa welcome them with great fan fare. When they opened the casket, they only found four hair relics. The two merchant brothers’ then invoke the power of truth:



“We vowed that the Buddha proclaimed the two of us who should carry the eight hair relics back to Suvannabhumi and enshrined them in a stupa at Theinguttara Hill for all to revere. Should this statement be true, may the eight hair relics appear in the original form in the casket”



Miraculously, all the eight strands of hair relics reappeared in the casket. The hairs rose to a height of several 100 feet and the assembly of Devas and men rejoiced.



Theinguttara Hill



Theinguttra Hill , at that time was a thick jungle area and no one knows the location of the sacred hill. The legend has it that on this sacred hill there located three sacred things from the past Buddhas’: the water filter of Kakusandha, the robe of Konagamana, and the staff of Kassapa, all these known as Paribawga relics. The king of the thirty-three knowing that, the human on their own could not find the location, he sent his assistant, Withagyone Deva to clear the hill and make the place ready to accept the stupa. The Deva, within a nighttime, used their miraculous power, had cleared the jungle and level the place ready to accept the stupa. In that very night, in the most miraculous way, the two brothers received the Deva’s message and saw the Theinguttara Hills in their dreams. In the morning, they informed Okkalapa King the location of the sacred hill.



The two brothers then disclosed what the Buddha had told them about the sacred things used by the past Buddha – the water filter, the robe and the staff. The entire assembly of King’s retinue went out to find the sacred things, but failed to find the thing. At that time, Sakka, the king of the thirty-three came down with his retinue of Devas from haven, riding the elephant descended on the Theinguttara Hill. The Deva’s shining bodies illuminated the place and the Devas unearthed the sacred paribawga sacred relics.. Together with the Gotama hair relics, all the sacred relics were enshrined in a stupa. The glory of the hair relics stupa stand there to this day for the past 2,500 years, and will continue to shine its glory until the end of the Buddha’s dispensation in the Sasana year 5,000.

^ Thanks for that article. Can you please include links to them? Id like to read more.

Thank you, again.

What the hell is a Mawn ?

He means the 'Mon' or in Thailand , 'Thai Raman' people.

If you read the entire thread, you'd understand.

funnily enough its my father-in-laws favourite....


as always..............i am going to ask my father-in-law if he has any distinct mon habit customs songs, dishes or whatever...

^ lol fish cake is good, IMO.

i hear its a hard country to get into...even as a tourist. my firend came back form there...he says there are some of the best and oldest temples there.

Here's some links


http://www.shwedagon.org/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shwedagon_Pagoda

http://www.molon.de/galleries/Myanmar/Yang...dagon/index.php


http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/moments/pagel...006&page=01

very interesting linke but it seems they are mostly about the Shwedagon Pagoda. i am eager to learn about any of the distinctly mon traditions and cultures....as a people
thanks again

Hi Corky.

Those links were really for Siri as he wanted to find out more about the Shwe Dagon i thought.

Did you look at my 2 earlier links ?



Anyway this will give you lots of links to the Mon


http://www.burmalibrary.org/show.php?cat=189

Also try this book . The Talaings are another name for the MOn ( sometimes seen as sl derogatory - to my knowledge I don't know anyone in BUrma who uses that term )

http://www.dcothai.com/product_info.php?products_id=406




I have no Mon blood as I'm mainly Shan Burmese and from Upper BUrma but almost everyone I know in Lower Burma is part MOn.

The Mon are indeed famous for their sea food and may have been the original inventors of fish sauce ( Nam Pla in Tai , Ngan Pya Ye in BUrmese )


PS does Nam Pla have a meaning in Thai . In Burmese Ngan means Salty , Pya means blue , Ye means water or liquid.

Thanks Alot. Great read.

siri, do you know of any mon or khmer blood in your bloodline? by looking at the photo of you in your sig you look very mon, your hair also looks like its the wavy type like mon-khmer.

^^^

I dont think I have mon blood. I have indian blood tho. From my dad's line.

I had an ancestor who came from Rajasthan State in India.

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In fact I have phenotypics that are very Indian--per se my facial hair growth, which is a trait most Rajasthanis have. Second, my height. Im 6'0 foot tall and third my physical build. Im naturally buff. Down there too

Heres some pictures of Rajasthanis:







In fact, I know it because my dad has a very Rajasthani face.

++++++


Me

haha! yea, i just noticed that you had some looks to you that i just couldn't figure out. that pretty much explains it.

I got Indian blood in me man. I'LL CRUSH YOU! hahaha. No really I can LOL!

Btw, hows life been for you man? Anythin new?

i wouldn't doubt it, i remember when i was growing up as a kid my best friends brothers name was KAEK(laos guy) and he was built very different than the rest of us. he was muscular and very strong and athletic compared to us smaller asians. as i got older i found out why his name was kaek and why he looked like a black guy, it was because he was half lao/kaek(indian) his mom was a maid for a kaek guy.

i know that there's an indian community in thailand, are they numerous? ahh man, im doing good bro and yourself?

thanks mate exactly wjhat i wanted.

Awesome !Thanks a lot acid reflux disease