It seems to me that there is not 1 program on TV that confesses to the atrocities that America has committed to motivate 9-11. There's a reason why and I'm sure it's been discussed but just not publically so that every white-trash/redneck or ignorant mofo in America can understand.

yeah.....america has murder like millions oversea yet not a thing about it on T.V....

There's plenty of it on TV. How much news do you all watch? Before 9/11 I remember watching protests about American involvement in foreign countries, and debates about it and whatnot...and I still see it today...especially dealing with criticisms on the war in Iraq.

America did not create terrorists, however we sure built up a lot of animosity towards us.

^Few points: 1. There is stuff on TV about atrocities that are well known or acceptable because they were the nasty side effects of "Saving The World", but they are somewhat glossed over as "Well, $hit happens." 2. The real nasty covert stuff is never reported. 3. A lot of very nasty stuff is what is created by foreign diplomatic and economic policies. 4.Proxies are used by the U.S. that allow them to say, "Hey, we didn't do it. It was our crazy friend."

I'm not going to talk about hypocrisy in this thread, because I'm sure it's too obvious to anyone with a functional brain cell.

Instead, I'm going to assume that all of you are intelligent enough to realize that the WTC and the airliners were purely civilian targets, and I'm going to assume that all of you were equally callous when civilian targets were obliterated in Iraq, in Israel, in Saudi Arabia, in Jordan, in Afghanistan, and in every other place in the world, because of course, none of you are hypocrites.

And, if that is the case, then you really are the heartless and inhumane idiots that you come across as being. Of course, this may just be a symptom of ignorant youth. However, since I am not like you, I sincerely hope that nothing as awful as September 11 will happen in your own lives to make you realize the error of your ways.


Or maybe you're just too young or too ignorant to know that bin Laden's own stated purpose for attacking the United States was that King Fahd did not turn to bin Laden's mujahadeen to protect Saudi Arabia when Saddam invaded Kuwait, but rather to the United States, whose forces were invited to say by King Fahd after the first Gulf War. But no, instead of addressing the proximate reason, pray continue with your ignorant callousness.

(Great article by a legitimate man. Google him and see for yourself! Dont keep your blinders on, open your eyes to what is happening around the worl people)

This WAR is for REAL!

Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

Tuesday, July 12, 2005:


To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?
Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United State is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988

* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?
Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?
In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?
Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the
predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests).

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?
There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.



So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort if we are united, there is no way that we can l..nose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the
Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State, but throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

So you think Bin-Laden's motives are the only 1s that matter? Take aside from these implications there are millions of radicals that have other motivations. Funny thing is I wasn't even thinking about Bin-Laden but examined the perspective of other radical muslims.

Oh right, because other radical Muslims brought down the WTC, not bin Laden.

Good job confirming your ignorance.

No think about it this way. Bin-Laden's personal agenda seems a little to less encouraging if he didn't promote on other motivations these radicals all had revelations with. So in a way he used them by compiling a bundle of angst. You have to remember Bin-Laden is the wealthy elite and not some peasant Muslim. Whatever conditions these other radical muslims had to endure Bin-Laden had to step out of his box to experience. That's the irony.

No, that is irrelevant.

Look at the topic:

"America in Denial about WHY 9-11 HAPPENED"

Why did 9-11 happen? It's NOT because some poor Muslims were unhappy about some obscure matter --do you think that those poor Muslims could have afforded flight school?

No. Look at the SPECIFIC SEQUENCE of events and the motivating factor for bin Laden to attack the US. Bin Laden was unhappy that King Fahd requested the US to defend Saudia Arabia. That is the SPECIFIC REASON why bin Laden attacked the US.

Again, you're looking at WHY 9-11 happened.

Without bin Laden, would there have been a plan to crash the planes into the WTC? No.

Without bin Laden, would there have been the funding to train the hijackers? No.

Without bin Laden, would there have been the organization to move the hijackers into position? No.

Look at the simple facts, why were the majority of the hijackers Saudi? Why is al Qaida's primary target, in addition to the US, the Saudi royal family and the Saudi government?



So again, why was America attacked on 9-11? Because bin Laden didn't like the fact that King Fahd asked for American assistance to repel Saddam.

It's a simple and straight forward fact that you're ignoring to trumpet your callous political soapbox

Of course they were funded. And no what they live through is not an obscurity, it's very real. That's a simple explanation that doesn't provide enough motivation. Anybody can understand that. Bin-Laden didnt do it himself he manipulated people to take up a cause by feeding on their own misfortunes. And yes the topic does need to change because Bin-Laden isnt the only 1 out there.

So, are you saying Bin Laden is the wrong person to be go after for 9/11.

No. I'm saying you got to dispell the wrong notions that other radicals have. Asia, particularly China will be targeted sooner or later based on the same notions and the fact that China is doing the same thing in other regions like the Sudan. Selling Arms and Promoting a Warfare Industry. Disregard a country's inhumane policies towards its own citizens as long as you can do business with the their leaders at a bargain of a price.

While you have a point about foreign policy in general, your application of it to 9/11 is not only completely callous, it is completely wrong.


The WHY of 9/11 has a very specific motivation and a very specific causal reason. When you dodge around this very specific reason, all you're doing to using a national tragedy to grandstand for your political agenda.

Im not disagreeing with you completely only trying to get you to see the indepth reasons. What happened on 9'11 is wrong anyway you look at it. But u have to look into the motives in thoroughly. When Bin-Laden dies there will be and are already other motivations intact. Why do you think months after the attack Analysts mentioned other threats that are independent of Bin-Laden. With the proper funding and support they are already on their way.

I disagree. And here's where the hypocrisy argument comes in.

IF you move away from SPECIFIC reason why bin Laden attacked the WTC, and you then move towards a more general reason of why any Muslim radical would hate the US, then you're basically using broad swaths of karma-like sense of justification for the unjustifiable. At this point, the hypocrisy comes in, and your argument becomes circular. When you remove the SPECIFIC reasons, then I'm sure that whatever Muslim radical had it coming to them whatever the US did to them, because of their actions towards someone else. You've just removed the requirement for a SPECIFIC retribution, so mass sentiment can go round and round and backwards through history. Who among the geopolitical players is clean? Who doesn't have blood on their hands?

This is the specific reason why you HAVE to stick to the SPECIFIC CAUSE when you talk about the WHY for a certain event.

Again, when you talk about the SPECIFIC reason WHY 9/11 happened, you head back to King Fahd.

That's why the notions have to be dispelled. If anything they should be hating the leaders of their country and the elite. How their countries are run is not totally a concern of the US. What they have in their minds is it's all the US's is fault and they have very little speculations outside that notion. Most Americans don't understand the manipulated perpectives of the radicals in it's entirety.

It's not that Bin-Laden did it himself. It's very much the people that carried out the attacks who are ultimately responisble as well. If it wasn't Bin-Laden who was the fundraiser it would've been somebody else.

But then it wouldn't have been 9/11, and you wouldn't be using this particular national tragedy as your soapbox.

The USA is not without sin. Nor is Europe, nor China or any other power monger. During the cold war proxy wars were fought by both sides. I honestly find it hard to believe that this is the reason for the terrorist attacks. I find it easier to believe we are a prime target for the following reasons.
1. Our unflinching support of Israel , we set a double standard and turn a blind eye to Israels misdeeds.
2. Our attemps to bring our form of goverment to a region we really don't understand.
3.Us being the biggest kid on the block. If they can hit us and get away with it then that will make others feel safe to do the same. With each successful terrorist attack came bigger and bolder attacks until 9/11
4. Our own press feels free to demonize our own cause and to glorify our enemy. The fact that the USA spent billions using smart weapons to minimize civilian deaths is irrelevent, the press will only talk about that 1 bomb that missed.
5. We have a divided goverment. Both sides distort the truth and actually lie rather than to work together.
In short 9/11 happened because we are the biggest and most inviting target of all. We made it easy for them and they took the shot.

Actually no. Those are other reasons why radical Muslims might hate the US, but there is a specific reason for the attack.

9/11 happened because bin Laden was pissed off that King Fahd not only turned how his offer to use al Qaida to defend Saudi Arabia, King Fahd invited the American military to stay in Saudi Arabia.

You'll notice how most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, or while you occasionally hear of big events like 9/11 or Spain, most al Qaida activity occured in Saudi Arabia... or did before al Zarkawi's group was deputized in Iraq.

I have no feelings about 9-11. It's something that happened and nothing of personal sentiment to me. If I took it into regard I would like to throughly examine the chain of events in every aspect and not come up with 1 simple explanation.

We've now come full circle:

The real morons are the ones who still believe what the government tells them is truth. Bin laden was the perfect scapegoat for the plan to invade afghanistan and iraq. They fooled millions and played "Scare tactics" to get the support needed to fullfill their big oil needs,etc. You all need to wake up and not let the government fu-k you over and over. Oh yeah how come the FBI admits Bin laden has nothing to do with 9/11.
LOL then now the fu-kin' media released another al queda(however you spell it) video just to try and scare americans into voting republican again. Nice try fu-kers.

http://www.drudge.com/news/84914/bin-laden...fbi-but-not-911

forces invited to stay





He had something to do it yet there were already people ready to do it with or without Bin-Laden. And China is already collecting it's anti-merits little by little. Without strategy it's well on its way.

Do you even bother reading the things you post?





Again, the day you actually post something factual to support your idiotic conspiracy theories is ... never.

^ The day you realize your government fu-ked you will be too late.

Are you really a red-neck militia member hiding somewhere in the Rockies?

i'm sure he ain't. most people that lvie in the rockies are pretty liberal bunch.

I heard years ago that a lot of milita types had been settling in places like Colorado. Some idiotic plan to get a majority in one state so that they could secede from the nation. Not true?

i don't know about that. but i'm pretty sure vail and aspen aren't red necks. i'd say there' more rednecks on the plains...but the rockies extend to wyoming and i can' speak for that

Naw not me...only rednecks like you believe in the government.

Is that what you think? Some Rednecks are decent people and some of those white collar people are the most despical people. You see it's not the obvious that you need to be concerned about but the indistinguishables.

Hhhmm... yes I guess that's true. Who is lurking among us that harbors redneck desires...



Could it be him ^

the thing is...the US will always get blamed for everything. if the US goes and helps out a country in need...people will b!tch and accuse the US. if the US doesn't help a country that is in need...people will b!tch and blame the US for not stepping in. it's a lose-lose.



wow, you're so emo..

hey changgang...if u can live in any country in the world..where would it be and why?

^ Hey rkoe, have you watched "loose change" yet? I suggest you watch it and decide for yourself.

watched it..didn't care for it...

now answer my question mr. emo!

There's already explanations that debunk the theories in that documentary.

Really? You have no questions after watching it? Sad..just sad. Consider yourself a student of snailpoop and nomad.


explanations doesn't mean they're the truth or facts

consider yourself an emo kid that likes to 'try' to be different at every chance you get...

so answer my question...

Japan...no trash, no bush, etc.

But I'll kidnap your sister along with me.

are u planning on moving there in the near future?

Ah, the joys of ignorant emo angst. It's not paranoia, the world is really against you. You know more than anyone else, because you haven't yet learned the extent of what you don't know.




It's amusing that you're so quick to question the concensus of experts, of structural engineering firms, of accredited scientific organizations, and yet are so quick to mindlessly swallow slop falling off the emo bandwagon. If I recall, YOU were the one who couldn't answer questions and who couldn't provide a shred of evidence the last time this topic came around and who couldn't argue a single substantive point. You were reduced to mindless angsty name calling.

Judging from your mindless copy and paste of the video link again, somehow I doubt you've changed. Care to prove me wrong?