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bluelakedragon
Help your People. beerchug.gif


http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HI14Ae01.html
QUOTE
Sep 14, 2006


ASIA HAND
Heed the call of Vietnam's Bloc 8406
By Shawn W Crispin

BANGKOK - If Vietnam's aspiring democrats finally prevail, April 8, 2006, will go down in the national history as the beginning of the end the Communist Party's monolithic, authoritarian grip on power.

On that day, hundreds of democratic-minded Vietnamese took the courageous step of publicly declaring and signing their names to a "Manifesto on Freedom and Democracy for Vietnam", coincident



with the Communist Party's 10th National Congress in Hanoi.

Since then the group has grown into a thousands-strong pro-democracy movement popularly known as Bloc 8406, named after the date the group first publicly called for a political transition toward more participatory democracy. The domestic dissident movement represents the most potent political challenge ever to Vietnam's ruling Communist Party, which took power in the south militarily in 1975 and has ruled with an iron fist ever since.

And the group is gradually upping the ante of its activities. On August 22, Bloc 8406 publicly declared its four-phase proposal for Vietnam's democratization, including demands for the restoration of civil liberties, the establishment of political parties, the drafting of a new constitution and, finally, democratic elections for a new representative National Assembly that would be charged with choosing a new national name, flag and anthem.

The petition was publicly disseminated and signed by representatives from all three of the country's main regions, including former Vietnam People's Army officer Tran Anh Kim and prominent Catholic priest Nguyen Van Ly. Bloc 8406 claims that young educated professionals represent the core of its membership - a stark contrast to the Communist Party's mostly crusty cadres.

The government is obviously spooked by the group's growing visibility and has reacted to the perceived challenge to its authority with its trademark jackboot harassment and crude violence. Scores of Bloc 8406's members have in recent weeks been harassed, interrogated and, in the case of Ho Chi Minh City member Vu Hoang Hai, brutally tortured. Other high-profile members have had their telephone lines cut or mobile phones confiscated.

On August 12, security agents rounded up and interrogated five Bloc 8406 members in Hanoi who had planned to launch a new online political magazine aptly called Freedom and Democracy. Agents later confiscated their equipment, documents and at least one desktop computer, forcibly putting the new publication's August 15 launch date on indefinite hold.

Significantly, Bloc 8406 has launched its campaign of civil disobedience while the world spotlight is focused squarely on the country's next move. Vietnam's communist leaders have wooed the international community with its impressive economic-reform credentials, casting aside its old cloistered communist ways to embrace the global marketplace.

Those credentials will likely be enough to win permanent normal trade relations, a motion that is now pending with the US Congress and widely viewed as the last stepping stone for Hanoi's accession to the World Trade Organization this year. Meanwhile, the Communist Party is preparing to put its best foot forward when hosting the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit in Hanoi in November, an event that will be attended by world leaders, including US President George W Bush.

At the same time, Bloc 8406 leaders have indicated their intention to intensify their activities during the high-profile meetings - putting the two sides on a potentially dangerous collision course. The new group has acknowledged that while it may escape direct harassment during the actual APEC event, it fears that its members will face the government's wrath before and after world leaders and the international media have come and gone.

"A favorite tactic of the communist regime is to round up dissidents prior to international events, use the individuals as bargaining chips before the event, and then resume the harassment and arrests after the regime has achieved its immediate goal - whether it be a smooth meeting or winning trade privileges," the group recently posted on one of its internationally hosted websites.

The mounting crackdown on the fledgling movement indicates clearly that, contrary to some analysts' predictions, the party's new, younger leaders have no intention of undertaking political reforms to complement their economic and financial reforms. New Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung and President Nguyen Minh Triet have already demonstrated in their heavy-handed reactions to Bloc 8406 that they are as bent on preserving the party's monopoly on power as their predecessors were.

Many Western governments and multinational corporations are now seeking to engage Vietnam's communist leaders to gain access to the country's many virgin market opportunities. Yet most investors would agree with Bloc 8406's assertions recently posted on its VietTan.org website that "the Communist Party's refusal to liberalize the political system has resulted in widespread corruption and stagnation" and that "a pluralistic political system is a precondition for peace stability and long-term economic prosperity".

Significantly, Bloc 8406 has repeatedly reached out to the international community for validation of its democratic aspirations. On May 9, a group of 50 US congressmen signed an open letter in support of the group's democratic initiatives. In an August 23 letter, the Bloc 8406 members recently harassed by government authorities for planning to launch a new publication, perhaps oddly, perhaps not, called upon the Swedish government to "raise your voices in protecting us".

Asian history is littered with aspiring democracy movements that rose only to be crushed by authoritarian regimes while the West looked on in silence. And those pivotal moments have had a lasting impact on the region's democratic development. Myanmar, nearly 20 years after the military government's bloody crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators, still has not recovered from the national trauma. The same case obviously could be made for China's ruthless 1989 crackdown at Tiananmen.

There are growing indications that Vietnam is approaching its own moment of democratic truth. Unfortunately, many Western governments now approach Vietnam with a guilty historical conscience, and seem increasingly loath to criticize the Communist Party's abysmal rights record while it implements the wrenching economic reforms necessary to transition from a command to market economy.

But now is clearly the time for the international community, including multinational corporations, unequivocally to lend their support to the daring democrats behind Bloc 8406, who clearly represent Vietnam's preferred future political course.

Shawn W Crispin is Asia Times Online's Southeast Asia editor.

(Copyright 2006 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing .)


http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HI14Ae01.html
TrashCleaner
QUOTE(bluelakedragon @ Sep 15 2006, 08:06 AM) [snapback]2294049[/snapback]


I never support separatists. Never. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
VietPunk
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 05:38 PM) [snapback]2294110[/snapback]

I never support separatists. Never. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


in general, are they still separatists if they make up a large fraction of the population?
TrashCleaner
QUOTE(VietPunk @ Sep 15 2006, 08:41 AM) [snapback]2294118[/snapback]

in general, are they still separatists if they make up a large fraction of the population?


Vietnam could not afford those people. Why? Because if they have their way, there will be civil war and the country will slide into chaos. People with a big mouth will remain themselves wherever they go. Even when they get to the US, they will still have a big mouth; however, you do know that in most case, a big mouth doesnt create a successful country or people, right? They are often low class, and cant follow the rules of any country properly. Learn to shut up is a good thing for them to do first.
VietPunk
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 05:45 PM) [snapback]2294133[/snapback]

Vietnam could not afford those people. Why? Because if they have their way, there will be civil war and the country will slide into chaos. People with a big mouth will remain themselves wherever they go. Even when they get to the US, they will still have a big mouth; however, you do know that in most case, a big mouth doesnt create a successful country or people, right? They are often low class, and cant follow the rules of any country properly. Learn to shut up is a good thing for them to do first.


what choices do they have but to talk and complain, what is wrong with critisism for the better. if they are low class and complain, what is wrong with that? do you expect the government and high officials to complain about themselves? if something they feel is wrong, why should they keep shut?

if enough people share the same interest in due time about the government, the power will end eventually. the complaining is merely a process.
kpham001
Your reason are unfounded. Civil War? I don't think so. How can there be civil war if the majority of the population would agree and take side with Bloc 8406? It is more like a war between the people and the government. Which side would you think the army will help? The corrupt communist party or their mother, brother and sister? If I were a soldier, I would rather be arrested for disobeying order than shoot any civilian.

Plus, Bloc 8406 advocate civil disobedience not violent action. It is similar to the tactic use by MLK and Gandhi.

I hope trashcleaner never have power in his hand. He would use it to crush and murder his own people like the khmer rouge.
arun
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 05:45 PM) [snapback]2294133[/snapback]

Vietnam could not afford those people. Why? Because if they have their way, there will be civil war and the country will slide into chaos. People with a big mouth will remain themselves wherever they go. Even when they get to the US, they will still have a big mouth; however, you do know that in most case, a big mouth doesnt create a successful country or people, right? They are often low class, and cant follow the rules of any country properly. Learn to shut up is a good thing for them to do first.

Why do you have to take issue with everything Barney says? Leave him alone!
TrashCleaner
QUOTE(VietPunk @ Sep 15 2006, 08:55 AM) [snapback]2294153[/snapback]

what choices do they have but to talk and complain, what is wrong with critisism for the better. if they are low class and complain, what is wrong with that? do you expect the government and high officials to complain about themselves? if something they feel is wrong, why should they keep shut?

if enough people share the same interest in due time about the government, the power will end eventually. the complaining is merely a process.


Well, 'complaining' only shows lack of understanding and a short-temper personality. Everything has 2 sides. Nothing is purely bad and nothing is purely good.

Looking deeply into anything will show you that gaining things without exerting effort is short-lived. Knowing which direction you should exert your efforts requires proper understanding of the whole situation. A sustainable gain requires patience and hard-work.

It could sound to you like 'pure philosophy' and doesnt make sense atm.

In answering your question: there is a reason for the fact that 'big mouth' people are low class. Because when you move up the ladder of society (assuming= getting more money), you need to pay more attention to your words, your actions because it affects other people. 'Big mouth' people are the worst kind of candidate for that job. Another example is that 'whistle blowers are often hated by everyone' (plenty of statistics to support this).

Learn the rule of the right group and work diligently instead of bad-mouthing others because a big mouth never helps you. A democracy is only sustainable if it has been accepted by all of the population, which requires a long time to fully reach. It is not suitable for Vietnam because in our history, we have never experienced it. Fighting among each others is another trait of Vietnamese. That is why. If you dont get it, time will answer.

VietPunk
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 06:11 PM) [snapback]2294210[/snapback]

Well, 'complaining' only shows lack of understanding and a short-temper personality. Everything has 2 sides. Nothing is purely bad and nothing is purely good.

Looking deeply into anything will show you that gaining things without exerting effort is short-lived. Knowing which direction you should exert your efforts requires proper understanding of the whole situation. A sustainable gain requires patience and hard-work.

It could sound to you like 'pure philosophy' and doesnt make sense atm.

In answering your question: there is a reason for the fact that 'big mouth' people are low class. Because when you move up the ladder of society (assuming= getting more money), you need to pay more attention to your words, your actions because it affects other people. 'Big mouth' people are the worst kind of candidate for that job. Another example is that 'whistle blowers are often hated by everyone' (plenty of statistics to support this).

Learn the rule of the right group and work diligently instead of bad-mouthing others because a big mouth never helps you. A democracy is only sustainable if it has been accepted by all of the population, which requires a long time to fully reach. It is not suitable for Vietnam because in our history, we have never experienced it. Fighting among each others is another trait of Vietnamese. That is why. If you dont get it, time will answer.


well no $hit, it's all about taking sides and people wanting what they want. in a corrupted government of vietnam, not everyone can benefit even though they are "Learn the rule of the right group and work diligently." how can you justify an argument where everyone is equal, and they are not in vietnam. you have those poor farmers, and then you have some rich bastard, hogging the money to themselves instead of trying to make the people better. that is what people are complaining about, how can anyone work with such people?
justme
i know this is old news, but you guys could support 8406's message by posting it on your website, xanga, or some other blog site you have. beerchug.gif
TrashCleaner
QUOTE(VietPunk @ Sep 15 2006, 11:27 AM) [snapback]2294652[/snapback]

well no $hit, it's all about taking sides and people wanting what they want. in a corrupted government of vietnam, not everyone can benefit even though they are "Learn the rule of the right group and work diligently." how can you justify an argument where everyone is equal, and they are not in vietnam. you have those poor farmers, and then you have some rich bastard, hogging the money to themselves instead of trying to make the people better. that is what people are complaining about, how can anyone work with such people?


google the word "income gap" and compare Vietnam with America. Read it before posting your response.

Vietnamese people were all farmers before. Ironically, it is the french that brought industry to Vietnam. How the hell could we have industrial or service workers if there is no industrialisation. Dont understand the very meaning of the word? Increased industrialisation will create a middle class. Some poor people will be left out because they are not dynamic enough.

I agree that corrupted officals should be punished. Even without corruption, GDP will increase by some small % (ever read the news?), not a whopping $$$%. You dont wake up in 1 day and see a farmer becoming an aeronautical engineer. It is very easy for one borned in an industrialised nation to pass bad judgement on industrialising nation. What he/she doesnt realise is how long it took for their own country to become industrialised in the first place.



quangdaika
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 03:38 PM) [snapback]2294110[/snapback]

I never support separatists. Never. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif



What are you taking about. Separatists? Separate what? Nobody ever said that? They just want a government for the people, by the people, of the people. A government that is honest and democratic.
VietPunk
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 09:34 PM) [snapback]2294864[/snapback]

google the word "income gap" and compare Vietnam with America. Read it before posting your response.

Vietnamese people were all farmers before. Ironically, it is the french that brought industry to Vietnam. How the hell could we have industrial or service workers if there is no industrialisation. Dont understand the very meaning of the word? Increased industrialisation will create a middle class. Some poor people will be left out because they are not dynamic enough.

I agree that corrupted officals should be punished. Even without corruption, GDP will increase by some small % (ever read the news?), not a whopping $$$%. You dont wake up in 1 day and see a farmer becoming an aeronautical engineer. It is very easy for one borned in an industrialised nation to pass bad judgement on industrialising nation. What he/she doesnt realise is how long it took for their own country to become industrialised in the first place.


go google and read: reality, history of vietnam, economics. read it before you respond

it's not a one day thing for a nation to become industrialize, but the whole point of this thread was about the vietnamese government. without them, i think vietnam would be greater than what is is now.
TrashCleaner
QUOTE(VietPunk @ Sep 15 2006, 01:36 PM) [snapback]2295103[/snapback]

without them, i think vietnam would be greater than what is is now.


Evidence???

History takes its course for a reason. sure.gif
supernovasp
I disagree with this quote with this quote
"a pluralistic political system is a precondition for peace stability and long-term economic prosperity".
It only works for industrialized nations.

TrashCleaner
Vietnam income gap is much smaller than America and most countries in Asia Pacific region (hence the news: most equitable among APEC nations).

The thread poster doesnt even understand 1+1=2, let alone do the equation x+y=2, x=1, y=?


QUOTE(kpham001 @ Sep 15 2006, 09:06 AM) [snapback]2294182[/snapback]

I hope trashcleaner never have power in his hand. He would use it to crush and murder his own people like the khmer rouge.


what??? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif. Maybe it is you because you think of it. I never thought of it before.
bluelakedragon
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 10:50 PM) [snapback]2295127[/snapback]

Vietnam income gap is much smaller than America and most countries in Asia Pacific region (hence the news: most equitable among APEC nations).

The thread poster doesnt even understand 1+1=2, let alone do the equation x+y=2, x=1, y=?
what??? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif. Maybe it is you because you think of it. I never thought of it before.


I think whenever VCs see the word DEMOCRACY, they $hit in their pants.

I don't think you even read the article and when you see the word "democracy", you go mad. wtf
And I even bring that Indian dude out of Cu Tunnel.

Here's a very simple summary for you to understand: the 8406 group is made up of mostly young professionals, intellectualls from all parts of Vietnam. They believe in peaceful, non-violent movement. Most of what they want to do are actually allowed in the current constitution but CSVN is just a big @$$ oppressor to the people of Vietnam and who on earth wants to live under an oppressor. You?
anhdaym
Income Gap In Vietnam and the U.S.

"In past years, incomes across population groups have improved, but the incomes of the richer portions of the population increased far faster than the poorest. The income gap therefore has widened. In 1990 the income of richest group was 4.1 times higher than the poorest. In 1993 the ratio was 6.2 times, while in 1995 it was 7.0 times. In 1999 it was 7.6 times, and by in 2004 it was 8.3 times.

Many people say that compared with other countries, the gap between the rich and the poor in Vietnam is still small. But in America for example, after 200 years of economic development, a household of richest group earns nine times more than and one in the poorest on average, while in Vietnam the ratio is more than eight times."



http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2006/08/605705/
TrashCleaner
Việt Nam có độ công bằng xã hội tốt nhất APEC
http://vietnamnet.vn/chinhtri/doingoai/2006/09/610798/
16:32' 11/09/2006 (GMT+7)
(VietNamNet) - Lấy hệ số bất bình đẳng làm trục tung, tăng trưởng kinh tế làm trục hoành thì VN có mức tăng trưởng cao và công bằng xã hội tốt nhất APEC.




Theo ông Lê Anh Sơn, Trưởng đoàn VN tham dự diễn đàn của Uỷ ban Kinh tế APEC, VN là nền kinh tế có độ công bằng xã hội tốt nhất APEC (Ảnh: HC)
Trưa 11/9, ông Lê Anh Sơn, Phó Viện trưởng Viện Chiến lược Phát triển (Bộ KH-ĐT), Trưởng đoàn VN tham dự diễn đàn của Ủy ban Kinh tế APEC (EC) đã có buổi họp báo giới thiệu về các cuộc họp của EC trong khuôn khổ hội nghị SOM 3 đang diễn ra tại Đà Nẵng và Hội An.

Trả lời câu hỏi của VietNamNet "Trong các yếu tố nêu trên đối với toàn khu vực APEC thì những yếu tố nào ảnh hưởng mạnh nhất đến sự phát triển bền vững của nền kinh tế VN?", ông Lê Anh Sơn phân tích:



Xét về khía cạnh phát triển kinh tế, hiện VN cùng với Trung Quốc là hai nền kinh tế có tốc độ tăng trưởng GDP hàng năm cao nhất trong khu vực APEC. Tuy nhiên, bên cạnh tỉ lệ tăng trưởng cao cũng phải xem xét thêm một số khía cạnh khác như mức độ lạm phát, tỉ giá giữa đồng VN (VND) với đồng USD để thấy rõ hơn thực chất của mức tăng trưởng đó.



Đáng mừng là trong khi mức lạm phát trong những năm qua có chiều hướng tăng thì tỉ giá giữa VND và USD vẫn giữ được tương đối ổn định. Thu nhập bình quân đầu người vẫn tiếp tục tăng tương đối tốt. GDP bình quân đầu người của VN năm 2004 - 2005 đã đạt 640 USD và phấn đấu đến năm 2010 đạt khoảng 1.000 USD.



Điều quan ngại là do tốc độ phát triển hạ tầng mạnh mẽ hiện nay nên đang dẫn tới tình trạng ô nhiễm môi trường nước, môi trường đô thị. Chưa kể, thiên tai diễn ra hàng năm, gây ảnh hưởng rất nhiều, nhất là trong bối cảnh VN vẫn chưa thoát khỏi một nền kinh tế nông nghiệp.



Về mặt xã hội, nếu lấy hệ số phân biệt sự bất bình đẳng GINI làm trục tung và tăng trưởng kinh tế GDP làm trục hoành thì VN là nền kinh tế duy nhất trong APEC nằm ở ô cuối cùng. Đây là ô tốt nhất, thể hiện có mức tăng trưởng cao và độ công bằng xã hội tốt nhất.


Các nền kinh tế khác có khi tăng trưởng cao nhưng độ bất bình đẳng cũng cao, hoặc tăng trưởng thấp bất và bình đẳng thấp, hoặc tăng trưởng thấp mà độ bất bình đẳng cao. Đó là những phân tích chung qua các số liệu của APEC mà Viện Nghiên cứu chiến lược (Bộ KH-ĐT) ghi nhận được khi thực hiện chương II trong Báo cáo Kinh tế năm 2006 của APEC.


Mặc dù vậy, xét trên 3 góc độ kinh tế - xã hội - môi trường thông qua các số liệu điều tra mức sống, có thể thấy độ chênh lệch giữa nhóm thu nhập cao nhất và nhóm thu nhập thấp nhất ở VN tuy thấp hơn nhiều nước khác nhưng cũng bắt đầu gia tăng khoảng cách và trong xu thế chung thì điều này cũng cần chú ý. Hoặc là khoảng cách giữa các vùng miền, mặc dù VN rất cố gắng nhưng rõ ràng cần phải có thêm nhiều chính sách tác động nữa để giảm độ chênh lệch



Ngoài ra, là một nền kinh tế trong APEC nên VN cũng phải đối diện với những vấn đề có tính đặc thù chung có thể gây ảnh hưởng đến sự phát triển bền vững của khu vực này.

Những cản trở các nền kinh tế APEC phát triển bền vững

Đề cập những vấn đề đang gây ảnh hưởng đến sự phát triển bền vững của khu vực APEC tại buổi họp báo, ông Lê Anh Sơn cho rằng, đặc trưng của khu vực này là sự chênh lệch trình độ phát triển kinh tế. Khoảng cách thu nhập bình quân đầu người giữa nhóm thu nhập cao và nhóm thu nhập thấp là 26 lần năm 1995 và 19 lần năm 2004.

Tuy mật độ dân số thấp dưới mức trung bình thế giới (APEC chiếm khoảng 46% về diện tích và trên 41% dân số thế giới) nhưng có sự phân bổ không đồng đều giữa các nền kinh tế.



Theo ông Lê Anh Sơn, có những chính sách cải cách cơ cấu mang lại thuận lợi cho nền kinh tế này song có lúc lại tác động không tích cực đối với nhóm các nền kinh tế khác, nhất là trong điều kiện khoảng cách phát triển giữa các nhóm nước trong APEC tương đối lớn. Đứng từ giác độ phát triển kinh tế, xã hội và môi trường thì xu thế này sẽ tạo nên sự không bền vững của cả cộng đồng.



Bên cạnh đó, tự do hoá thương mại đang tác động đến sự phát triển bền vững của khu vực. Hiện APEC chiếm khoảng 47% thương mại thế giới; trong đó, hoạt động thương mại giữa các nền kinh tế thành viên chiếm tới trên 70% kim ngạch ngoại thương của khu vực (trong khi tỉ lệ này của EU tương ứng là 40% và 60%). Số liệu thống kê cho thấy xuất khẩu là yếu tố tạo nên sự tăng trưởng cao của nhiều nền kinh tế trong APEC. Điều đó cũng có thể dẫn tới chỗ, mỗi khi thị trường xuất khẩu có biến động sẽ rất dễ gây tác động tiêu cực đến sự phát triển của nền kinh tế đó.



Nợ nước ngoài cũng là một yếu tố ảnh hưởng đến sự phát triển bền vững của một số nền kinh tế APEC, đặc biệt là nợ ngắn hạn và trung hạn. Trong khi đó, nghèo đói và bất bình đẳng là những yếu tố không bền vững về mặt xã hội ở các nền kinh tế đang phát triển trong khu vực này. So sánh tốc độ tăng trưởng GDP và độ bất bình đẳng GINI cho thấy, nhiều nền kinh tế trong APEC vẫn nằm trong vùng tăng trưởng thấp và độ bất đẳng cao.



Về việc sử dụng năng lượng, các nền kinh tế đang phát triển trong khu vực APEC tiêu dùng ngày một cao. Xu thế này không chỉ gây ảnh hưởng đến giá dầu mỏ mà còn đòi hỏi sự cải cách cơ cấu ở một số nền kinh tế. Diện tích đất nông nghiệp giảm do nhiều nguyên nhân cũng là một nguy cơ về sự phát triển không bền vững ở nhiều nền kinh tế đang phát triển.



Ô nhiễm môi trường, đặc biệt là môi trường không khí, đang gia tăng là nguy cơ đối với sự phát triển bền vững của khu vực APEC và thế giới. Ngoài ra, APEC là khu vực gánh chịu nhiều thiên tai với tần suất cao và phạm vi tàn phá lớn. Từ năm 1990 đến nay, APEC đã hứng chịu khoảng 3.700 các thảm hoạ về thiên tai, chiếm khoảng 37% tổng số thiên tai trên thế giới. Bình quân mỗi năm có 7 thảm hoạ, làm chết 14.000 người và thiệt hại về kinh tế lên đến 8,9 tỉ USD (bình quân 420 triệu USD/nền kinh tế).



Thêm vào đó, nhiều bệnh dịch mới xuất hiện cũng đang gây ảnh hưởng đến sự phát triển bền vững của khu vực APEC. Đặc biệt, dịch SARS và cúm gà (bắt đầu vào năm 2003) đã tác động tiêu cực không nhỏ đến nhiều lĩnh vực như du lịch, hàng không, chăn nuôi, nông nghiệp và tâm lý người dân.

Hải Châu
blacklight
QUOTE(anhdaym @ Sep 15 2006, 03:55 AM) [snapback]2295607[/snapback]

Income Gap In Vietnam and the U.S.

"In past years, incomes across population groups have improved, but the incomes of the richer portions of the population increased far faster than the poorest. The income gap therefore has widened. In 1990 the income of richest group was 4.1 times higher than the poorest. In 1993 the ratio was 6.2 times, while in 1995 it was 7.0 times. In 1999 it was 7.6 times, and by in 2004 it was 8.3 times.

Many people say that compared with other countries, the gap between the rich and the poor in Vietnam is still small. But in America for example, after 200 years of economic development, a household of richest group earns nine times more than and one in the poorest on average, while in Vietnam the ratio is more than eight times."
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2006/08/605705/

Whoever wrote that in America, household in the richest group earns nine times than households in the poorest group - that person is wrong. Just one anecdote: compare Bill Gates' income against the income of Vietnamese refugee who is working as janitor.

Also, I suspect that the gap between the poorest and the richest households in Vietnam is more than a factor of eight. Example: compare the income of a husband and wife who work as software developers vs. that of a family of rice farmers.

We can probably tolerate income disparities as long as the economy is growing, but at some point we need to find ways to mitigate them because they have a destabilizing effect on the society over the long run.
TINMAN
QUOTE(anhdaym @ Sep 15 2006, 02:55 AM) [snapback]2295607[/snapback]

Income Gap In Vietnam and the U.S.

Many people say that compared with other countries, the gap between the rich and the poor in Vietnam is still small. But in America for example, after 200 years of economic development, a household of richest group earns nine times more than and one in the poorest on average, while in Vietnam the ratio is more than eight times."
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2006/08/605705/

In the US, the top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.

http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/hot_issue/share/
etalkishere
I strongly support this moment. But it needs to be peaceful, so it won't disrupt our economic growth. We can't afford another civil war. Having civil war or not is a decision Vietnamese can choose to make. I have a strong feeling that, Vietnamese have learned their lessons about destructions of war, so we will avoid civil wars as much as possible. I am confident that Vietnam will succeed in transforming itself into a democratic society, peacefully. Having democracy will encourage many Vietnamese overseas professionals to come back and contribute to their country, and will allow us to catch up Thailand in 15 years, as opposed to 25 years.
TINMAN
QUOTE(etalkishere @ Sep 15 2006, 05:54 PM) [snapback]2297577[/snapback]

I strongly support this moment. But it needs to be peaceful, so it won't disrupt our economic growth.


A peaceful movement would surely gain international support and sympathy, but all hell could also break loose as seen in the government's crackdown and massacre at Tianaman Square 1989, which took years for China to recover.
blacklight
QUOTE(TINMAN @ Sep 15 2006, 07:48 PM) [snapback]2297707[/snapback]

A peaceful movement would surely gain international support and sympathy, but all hell could also break loose as seen in the government's crackdown and massacre at Tianaman Square 1989, which took years for China to recover.

The more broad based and the better connected internationally the movement is, the less likely that the government's response will be bloodshed. The VCP leadership may be hard core, but they are not irrational. I am more worried abouut the PRC putting undue pressure on the government to crack down.
TINMAN
QUOTE(blacklight @ Sep 15 2006, 07:16 PM) [snapback]2297778[/snapback]

I am more worried abouut the PRC putting undue pressure on the government to crack down.


If they wish to maintain power and model themselves after the PRC, then such crack down is inevitable. The question is whether the international community would stand by to witness another Tianamen square massacre.
anhdaym
A picture is worth a thousand words.

IPB Image
Some rich guy driving a 50,000 USD Toyota LandCruiser in Hanoi. On the left are some poor street vendors.

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(Toyota LanCruiser) Blue license plate means it belongs to the government.

IPB Image
Street vendor.

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Crippled man selling lottery tickets for a living.

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Street vendor.

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This Nissan Murano belongs to some Vietnamese capitalist is worth 135,000 USD in Vietnam (Price inflated due to high import tax).

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Kid selling lottery tickets for a living.

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Beggar with her five-month-old baby begging for some change. They just ignore her.


These kinds of things are common in Vietnam.
Preydominator
And what is the point? The richest American is much richer than the richest Vietnamese and the poorest in the US is on the same level as the poorest in Vietnam. I'm fine with constructive critics but this is really counter-productive. Most people in the Vietnamese Serious talk are smart, intelligent and well-educated, it would better if we discuss with with social-economics data, statistics.. etc instead throwing pics, that maybe worked in the sixties. icon_smile.gif
xyz

The rich guy driving a 50,000 USD Toyota LandCruiser is probably a reactionary capitalist! The rest are the heroic proletariat working class people.
blacklight
QUOTE(anhdaym @ Sep 16 2006, 02:42 AM) [snapback]2298845[/snapback]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Your pictures point to the fact that there is no economic safety net in Vietnam, but the government's cash reserves are sufficient for just three months' worth of operations. You have to be reasonable aand realistic in your expectations. You may not like the fact that people are hustling to live, but what happens to us when economic growth drops to zero?

The only point that you can reasonably make is that government corruption is costing us at least 1% of 2% economic growth each year, and that the government needs to stop those policies that discourage Vietnamese businesses from growing bigger: we just can't expect to become a major, world class, industrial, high tech power if people don't feel safe owning nothing bigger than coffee shops. We need to encourage entrepreneurship in Vietnam, because it is when people break themselves out of poverty that the country breaks out of poverty.
anhdaym
Countries with greatest equality.

IPB Image

Many former communist countries are in the list.

According to World Bank, GINI Index # for communist Vietnam is 37. China and USA are around 40.


Countries with greatest inequality:

IPB Image




http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908770.html
Preydominator
I don't know, using GINI index to attack social inequality of Vietnam is really a wrong choice. Social equality wise, Vietnam is doing quite well in compare to other countries in the region and in the world, or even to the USA. I think you should quit complaining about the social inequality in Vietnam and instead using for example corruption index.. etc to critic the policy of Vietnam government. icon_smile.gif
blacklight
QUOTE(anhdaym @ Sep 16 2006, 05:55 AM) [snapback]2299036[/snapback]

IPB Image


Many former communist countries are in the list.

According to World Bank, GINI Index # for communist Vietnam is 37. China and USA are around 40.
Bottom ones:

IPB Image


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908770.html

Well, the PRC's economy is the fastest growing economy in the world. The US economy is not only that of a developed country, but also a strongly developing countries - In contrast, the economies of most Western European countries are developed but not developing, because they have been stagnant for a long time.

It is a lot more important for the government to encourage people to start successful businesses, and tax them properly so that the country as a whole benefits from the efforts of these individuals. Yes, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Egypt, Pakistan and Rwanda are on the list of the most equal countries, but who wants to have their economies? And what good is income equality, if it merely amounts to spreading misery equally to everyone?

I have said before that income inequality is a manageable side effect of fast economic growth, as long as efforts are made to make social mobility achievable and a cost effective economic safety net. But social mobility is not achievable without the kind of strong economic growth that creates good jobs that actually go begging for people to fill them and again, the social safety net will have to be paid out of economic growth.
anhdaym
Transparency International

Corruption Perceptions Index 2005

Vietnam's CPI score is 2.6

http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005_infocus.html
anhdaym
I have no comments. I just want people to know Vietnam's current condition and status.
blacklight
QUOTE(anhdaym @ Sep 16 2006, 06:20 AM) [snapback]2299069[/snapback]

Transparency International

Corruption Perceptions Index 2005

Vietnam's CPI score is 2.6

http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005_infocus.html

You could make the argument that arbitrary government keeps the CI down because as long as there is arbitrary government, people will be looking for and finding back doors. You could make the further point that as long as government is arbitrary, the CI can only go up so far to say, Cuba's position at CI 3.8 and no higher. You could make the final point that as long as government is arbitrary, corruption will be a problem of institutions rather than individuals. And institutional corruption is a lot harder to get rid of than the corruption of individuals.

Corruption acts as a decelerator to economic growth, because people are afraid to start and grow their businesses, and foreign investors are afraid to invest. If ordinary citizens are not empowered to fight corruption on their own through the presentation of grievances and through the court system, corruption will continue to be a problem in the past, present and future. The blunt fact is that, even with the best of intentions, no government leader can fight corruption on his or her own.
etalkishere
QUOTE(blacklight @ Sep 15 2006, 07:16 PM) [snapback]2297778[/snapback]

The more broad based and the better connected internationally the movement is, the less likely that the government's response will be bloodshed. The VCP leadership may be hard core, but they are not irrational. I am more worried abouut the PRC putting undue pressure on the government to crack down.


I really hope Vietnam is getting away from being too close with its PRC, gradually. On the surface, PRC is acting like a thoughful, big communist brother for Vietnam, yet many things are obviously for their own benefits, like chipping away our lands, domination at Spratly Island for example. Vietnam seems to be aware of it, yet it couldn't do much because PRC is powerful, economically and militarily, while we are still weak. I am encouraged Vietnam seems to realize the issues and start playing a better game with PRC by getting closer with the US. By balancing power between PRC and US, we will have better chance of reaping more benefits to ourselves, not just mainly to our so-claimed thoughtful *partners*. Of course, the US is also thinking for their own benefits, yet by having a close relationship with US, Vietnam will be able to keep our economy engine going strong and vastly expand its economy for at least another 5-10 years. I do see benefits vastly outweight the risks. Remember, with only 300Mil in population, yet it has the largest industrial economy in the world. Having more penetration into the US huge market will be key for Vietnam to further develop its economy and increase its prosperity. I do see greater benefits by partnering more with the US than the PRC, both short and long terms. Heck, Vietnam is trying hard to transform itself to a more free market economy. There is no other better place to learn, except the US. I hope the US and Vietnam will be close allies in the future, just like US and Japan biggthumpup.gif
Byron
Don't recall ever typing this.
blacklight
QUOTE(etalkishere @ Sep 16 2006, 07:18 AM) [snapback]2299129[/snapback]

I really hope Vietnam is getting away from being too close with its PRC, gradually. On the surface, PRC is acting like a thoughful, big communist brother for Vietnam, yet many things are obviously for their own benefits, like chipping away our lands, domination at Spratly Island for example. Vietnam seems to be aware of it, yet it couldn't do much because PRC is powerful, economically and militarily, while we are still weak. I am encouraged Vietnam seems to realize the issues and start playing a better game with PRC by getting closer with the US. By balancing power between PRC and US, we will have better chance of reaping more benefits to ourselves, not just mainly to our so-claimed thoughtful *partners*. Of course, the US is also thinking for their own benefits, yet by having a close relationship with US, Vietnam will be able to keep our economy engine going strong and vastly expand its economy for at least another 5-10 years. I do see benefits vastly outweight the risks. Remember, with only 300Mil in population, yet it has the largest industrial economy in the world. Having more penetration into the US huge market will be key for Vietnam to further develop its economy and increase its prosperity. I do see greater benefits by partnering more with the US than the PRC, both short and long terms. Heck, Vietnam is trying hard to transform itself to a more free market economy. There is no other better place to learn, except the US. I hope the US and Vietnam will be close allies in the future, just like US and Japan biggthumpup.gif

Remember, Vietnam never chose the China as a neighbor. And as a neighbor, the PRC is not shy about throwing her weight around, when she thinks she can get away with it. We know for a fact that the PRC leadership bitterly and ferociously opposes democracy. That's why we need good links with the rest of the world including the United States and especially the United States to make sure the PRC does not even think of running interference in our internal affairs, including any evolution of ours toward democracy.


Here is an interesting link:
Learning the Art of Giving, by Bryan Walsh ( 4 Sep 2006)
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/art...1531426,00.html
TINMAN
QUOTE(Byron @ Sep 16 2006, 06:46 AM) [snapback]2299170[/snapback]

I need proof that Yellow Flag wavers can run Vietnam. They can barely organize their communities overseas with the youth, gangs, and drug problems, let alone managing an entire country of 80 million. And don't even talk to me about how great South Vietnam was managed.

Who says anything about Yellow Flag wavers running Vietnam? These are domestic dissidents asking for social reforms and openess, not overthrowing its government.

QUOTE
The Communists have had experience for 30 years now running Vietnam and while during the first few decades it was pretty bad (Which is quite understandable with their lack of experience and trade embargos and isolation) they are starting to pick their feet up now which is proved with the economy growing and poverty being reduced at a drastic rate.


Yes, the Communist leadership should continue to rule.
QUOTE
Does any sane person want to cause a revolution and destroy the progress that is just starting to be made? Gee I wonder why the leader of this group is a Catholic? Does he really have Vietnam's interests at heart? Or does he want a "democratic" Vietnam to spread his religion like Ngo Diem? They already ruined Vietnam by bringing over the French to colonize us so they could practice their religion and later during South Vietnam's rule with Ngo Diem's bigoted Catholic policies.

Are you saying that Ngo Dinh Diem brought over the French? Was he borned in the 1850's?

QUOTE
Yellow Flag wavers can't even manage their overseas communities yet we gotta replace the Communists who have experience in the political arena already and experience in running Vietnam and defending the country and actually winning with these inexperience people who just cut and run in 1975 due to their "brilliant strategies".

Well, let's not exaggerate on the youth gang and drug problems, as much as you would like to believe. This argument is getting quite old, in an attempt to discredit the overseas communities, for the actions of a small minority. Do you blame its leadership for fleeing in 1975 after a military defeat, or would you have preferred them to remain in the South and then thrown in concentration camps for 13 yrs. Yes, there were those leaders who stayed because they believed the Communist talks about national reconcilation, reconstruction, and a new provisional government but guess what happened. If you want better insights into that period, then pick up a book from ex-Communist Party member Colonel Bui Tin or ex-Vietong member Truong Nhu Tang, and catch up to speed, instead of ranting and raving like the Yellow Flag wavers.
arun
I, Arun, has decided to pay homage to Barney's thread.
Here's the web site of that Block of wood
http://www.viettan.org
Below is the article reporting on the California Muscle man and three sticks
http://www.viettan.org/article.php3?id_article=2405

and this one is on three sticks celebrating their Day of Shame 30/4
http://www.viettan.org/article.php3?id_article=2239

this one is on a three stick general who died choking on his own vomit while trying to take back his Khmer Krom land.
http://www.viettan.org/article.php3?id_article=2430

This one is on the California's Democrat ho Loretta Sanchez and her talk with a Catholic priest.
http://www.viettan.org/article.php3?id_article=2316
Can't wait for her to talk to a Buddhist priest. Maybe she did, but's it's not on this web site, or at least I don't see it.

Here's an article on their lobbying of American politicians, no doubt Republicans
http://www.viettan.org/article.php3?id_article=2444

When it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it definitely is a duck.

No more from me on this topic.





P228
Communism need to die
bluelakedragon
QUOTE(TrashCleaner @ Sep 14 2006, 05:45 PM) [snapback]2294133[/snapback]

Vietnam could not afford those people. Why? Because if they have their way, there will be civil war and the country will slide into chaos. People with a big mouth will remain themselves wherever they go. Even when they get to the US, they will still have a big mouth; however, you do know that in most case, a big mouth doesnt create a successful country or people, right? They are often low class, and cant follow the rules of any country properly. Learn to shut up is a good thing for them to do first.


what ever happened to your communist revolutionary fire in you? If you see injustice, rise up and put the oppressor down. You don't have any revolutionary blood in you? where's your communist tradition? You have betrayed Ho Chi Minh, man.... shame on you!

If you want to know what is loud mouth, listen to this fu-king loud mouth:

Loud Mouth 1

Loud Mouth 2

Loud Mouth 3


TrashCleaner
QUOTE(bluelakedragon @ Sep 18 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]2305103[/snapback]

what ever happened to your communist revolutionary fire in you? If you see injustice, rise up and put the oppressor down. You don't have any revolutionary blood in you? where's your communist tradition? You have betrayed Ho Chi Minh, man.... shame on you!

If you want to know what is loud mouth, listen to this fu-king loud mouth:

Loud Mouth 1

Loud Mouth 2

Loud Mouth 3


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Have better thing to do than to listen to a bunch of losers.
BTW, most Vietnamese in Vietnam are happy with the country atm.
So Be worry, i can see that your job has no future prospect.
LVF
i dont see its going to happen...not in this decade or the next several decades
2 millions viet oversea is not going to beat up 80 millions viet in vietnam;
MOST viet youths in vietnam are very patriotic, MOST middle-aged viet in vietnam are happy with their lives now;
believe me, it's not going to happen;
why dont u spend ur enery in rebuilding vietnam instead? that would help ur people more.
bluelakedragon
QUOTE(LVF @ Sep 18 2006, 07:43 PM) [snapback]2307547[/snapback]

i dont see its going to happen...not in this decade or the next several decades
2 millions viet oversea is not going to beat up 80 millions viet in vietnam;
MOST viet youths in vietnam are very patriotic, MOST middle-aged viet in vietnam are happy with their lives now;
believe me, it's not going to happen;
why dont u spend ur enery in rebuilding vietnam instead? that would help ur people more.



You got it all wrong buddy. Its not about overseas "beat up" 80 million Viet. bawling.gif
where the heck do you get that idea????? confused.gif

Yes, most viet youths in Vietnam are very patriotic thats why they want their country back from those corrupted assholes. If you can read Vietnamese, stop by at these websites sometimes to catch up with the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/vietnamese/vietnam/

http://www.rfa.org/vietnamese/

http://www.thtndc.org/

http://queme.net/eng/index.php



These are just a few. btw, many people who strongly call for democracy and freedom for Vietnam are in Vietnam. No body beat up on anyone. well, except Viet Cong An beat up on whoever criticizes them. thumbsdown.gif
I'm all for supporting of a peaceful democratic movement and I hope you too. beerchug.gif


If you are in Vietnam, I believe these websites are blocked by the CSVN. No wonder you have obscure view on overseas Viet. I don't know any CSVN website being blocked here in USA.
hohoho_
A lot of Viet youth people really hate the fu-king communist government. The evidence is that on high school history exit exams, which all ask questions about the government's history, most of the people cannot answer most of the questions. They don't care about the government.

I predict that the youth people will overthrow the govt really soon. So, to all hardcore communist worshipers, you should commit suicide now to have a peaceful dead or else you will be killed like you used to kill people in the land reform programs and mummified like your beloved comrade Ho Chi Minh.
daniel2003_ca
Only one word I would like to say loudly to the original poster is " LOOSER"..... You should mind your own freaking business and fight for democracy for your Little Saigon, not Vietnam dude...We don't need your "SH.T" there.
bluelakedragon
QUOTE(daniel2003_ca @ Sep 19 2006, 12:45 AM) [snapback]2308314[/snapback]

Only one word I would like to say loudly to the original poster is " LOOSER"..... You should mind your own freaking business and fight for democracy for your Little Saigon, not Vietnam dude...We don't need your "SH.T" there.



Hello Mr. Daniel 2003 CA,

If you're going to saying it loudly, say it right - LOSER. bawling.gif
My homeland is as much of my business as it is yours.
If you don't care about Vietnam then leave it to others that do.
LVF
@the guys above me: its true that we realize how corrupted our govt is and we dont like it either. sure we're going to change it. but we're not going to follow the yellow flag people. no one is going to live to see that yellow flag become the official flag of vietnam.
also do u know how our economy is going to be affected with ur crazy idea of overthrowing the present govertment? has there been already enough chaos in the past. why do u even want to create more chaos to the present peace?
of course we do criticize our govt, just like usa citizens do criticize usa govt sometimes.
and btw ur just an oversea viet, do u really know what the people in vietnam really think?

and it's funny how people insult ho chi minh. what did he do that was wrong? he just believed in communism because he hated how rich land lords oppressed poor and hard working peasants. u guys live in a democratic country, u should know better that people are free to believe in what they want to believe and u can't attack/insult someone because what they believe in contradicts what u believe in. it makes u look really hypocritic.
viet govt is corrupted, yet it has nothing to do with people who believe in communism.
communism is not the best form of govt
neither is democracy
wanting a communist or democratic govt, it's the choice of the viet youths in vietnam (including me)...they will decide what is the best for their country...but right now, they know better than ruining their country's economic growth
supernovasp
QUOTE(LVF @ Sep 20 2006, 04:52 PM) [snapback]2314060[/snapback]

@the guys above me: its true that we realize how corrupted our govt is and we dont like it either. sure we're going to change it. but we're not going to follow the yellow flag people. no one is going to live to see that yellow flag become the official flag of vietnam.
also do u know how our economy is going to be affected with ur crazy idea of overthrowing the present govertment? has there been already enough chaos in the past. why do u even want to create more chaos to the present peace?
of course we do criticize our govt, just like usa citizens do criticize usa govt sometimes.
and btw ur just an oversea viet, do u really know what the people in vietnam really think?

and it's funny how people insult ho chi minh. what did he do that was wrong? he just believed in communism because he hated how rich land lords oppressed poor and hard working peasants. u guys live in a democratic country, u should know better that people are free to believe in what they want to believe and u can't attack/insult someone because what they believe in contradicts what u believe in. it makes u look really hypocritic.
viet govt is corrupted, yet it has nothing to do with people who believe in communism.
communism is not the best form of govt
neither is democracy
wanting a communist or democratic govt, it's the choice of the viet youths in vietnam (including me)...they will decide what is the best for their country...but right now, they know better than ruining their country's economic system.

LVF dang song o dau vay?
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