Any of you have lots of information on the wars between burna and ayutthaya thailand in 1700s?
Its just that it seems to be contemptary to Qing-Burma wars.

I would like to know bit about it.

Hi,

I would like to know more about Qing _Burma wars from your perspective.


As for the above try ,

HRH Prince Damrong Rajanubhab Our Wars with the Burmese: Thai-Burmese Conflict 1539-1767, ISBN 974-7534-58-4

You might find a translation at a central library : It provides a proto-nationalistic and Thai-centric view of the conflicts . ( Damrong journeyed through Burma in 1930s to research his works on Burma. )

Any papers by Dr.Sunait Chutintaranond at Chulalongkorn University provide a more balanced modern historiography of Thai_Burmese relations of the past . ( Dr. Sunait also writes for the epics Suryothai and Naresuan )

I'll try to find some links for you if possible.


Translations and interpretations from Burmese chronicles including the 19th century Glass Palace Chronicles for the BUrmese view - again i'll try and find links if possible ( which is harder to get hold of as you would expect given that Burma has isolated itself from the world and Thailand is the dominant country in the region )

The Ancient city of Ayuthaya
Ayutthaya was a well established town before it became the capital of Siam, following the fall of the previous 'capital' at Sukhothai. It was supposedly founded by a Prince of Ut'ong (U-Thong) in the year 1350 or 1351. Or, more to the point: ... So he had his troops cross over and establish themselves on Dong Sano Island.... In 712, a Year of the Tiger, second of the decade, on Friday, the sixth day of the waxing moon of the fifth month, at three nalika and nine bat after the break of dawn, the Capital City of Ayutthaya was first established [i.e., Friday March 4th 1351, shortly after nine o'clock in the morning] (Wyatt 1984, translation from Cushman). It is named after Ayodhaya, the home of Rama in the Ramayana epic, which means 'unassailable' in Sanskrit. It is set on an island situated at the confluence of three rivers; the Chao Phrya (also known as the Menam, which flows south to the sea via Bangkok), the Lopburi and the Pasak.

Ayutthaya became one of the wealthiest and greatest cities in Asia, and attracted the interest and awe of visitors. In the 16th Century, travellers from elsewhere in Asia and Europe were arriving in Thailand, for trade in both goods and Christianity. Visitors, traders and missionaries from Portugal arrived around 1511, from Japan around 1690, from Holland around 1605, England around 1612, Denmark around 1621 and France in 1662. Many of these foreign missions were allowed to settle effectively as 'embassies' and it is from many of these travellers that the historical details of Ayutthaya can be discovered (for example Tachard, 1688, in Smithies 1995).

The city is associated with a high time in Thai history, with the borders of Siam extending into Burma, Cambodia and Malaysia. It was also a period of many wars, and Ayutthaya was severely damaged on several occasions. In time, the large canons of the Burmese Army once again helped to conquer the Kingdom of Ayutthaya, and on January the 7th 1767 CE the resultant fire consumed much of the inner city, destroying some 10,000 houses. Ayutthaya did not rise again, and eventually the capital of Siam moved to Bangkok leaving a ruined and plundered landscape. As a result, all that really remains of the greatness of historical Ayutthaya are the chedi, prang and defaced statues of the temples; all of the timber buildings, the palaces and the houses from the period are gone. The city of Ayutthaya was synonymous with Siam the Kingdom in the 18th Century. After the 2nd World War, on May 11 1949, Siam was renamed Prathet Thai, or Thailand as it is known to the world today

http://www.gisdevelopment.net/application/...l/archg0007.htm
+++++++



The sixteenth century witnessed the rise of Burma, which, under an aggressive dynasty, had overrun Chiang Mai and Laos and made war on the Thai. In 1569 Burmese forces, joined by Thai rebels mostly royal family members of Siam, captured the city of Ayutthaya and carried off the whole royal family to Burma. Dhammaraja (1569-90), a Thai governor who had aided the Burmese, was installed as vassal king at Ayutthaya. Thai independence was restored by his son, King Naresuan (1590- 1605), who turned on the Burmese and by 1600 had driven them from the country.

Determined to prevent another treason like his father's, Naresuan set about unifying the country's administration directly under the royal court at Ayutthaya. He ended the practice of nominating royal princes to govern Ayutthaya's provinces, assigning instead court officials who were expected to execute policies handed down by the king. Thereafter royal princes were confined to the capital. Their power struggles continued, but at court under the king's watchful eye.

In order to ensure his control over the new class of governors, Naresuan decreed that all freemen subject to phrai service had become phrai luang, bound directly to the king, who distributed the use of their services to his officials. This measure gave the king a theoretical monopoly on all manpower, and the idea developed that since the king owned the services of all the people, he also possessed all the land. Ministerial offices and governorships--and the sakdi na that went with them--were usually inherited positions dominated by a few families often connected to the king by marriage. Indeed, marriage was frequently used by Thai kings to cement alliances between themselves and powerful families, a custom prevailing through the nineteenth century. As a result of this policy, the king's wives usually numbered in the dozens.

Even with Naresuan's reforms, the effectiveness of the royal government over the next 150 years should not be overestimated. Royal power outside the crown lands--although in theory absolute- -was in practice limited by the looseness of the civil administration. The influence of central government ministers was not extensive beyond the capital until the late nineteenth century.

After a bloody period of dynastic struggle, Ayutthaya entered into what has been called its golden age, a relatively peaceful episode in the second quarter of the eighteenth century when art, literature, and learning flourished. There were foreign wars. The Ayutthaya fought with Nguyen Lords (Vietnamese rulers of South Vietnam) for control of Cambodia starting around 1715. But a greater threat came from Burma, where the new Alaungpaya dynasty had subdued the Shan states.

In 1765 Thai territory was invaded by two Burmese armies that converged on Ayutthaya. The only notable example of successful resistance to these forces was found at the village of Bang Rajan. After a lengthy siege, the city capitulated and was burned in 1767. Ayutthaya's art treasures, the libraries containing its literature, and the archives housing its historic records were almost totally destroyed, and the city was left in ruins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_kingdom

...until a young general by the name of Taksin united the defeated Siamese in a war of liberation. During the Burmese 12-month long siege of Ayutthaya, chao prya Taksin (then-governor of the province of Tak) led his men in the defence of the capital. Although fighting courageously to hold the city walls, treachery among the Siamese ranks assisted the Burmese in penetrating into the city. Before the Burmese encircled the city, Taksin broke out with 500 men and made his way to Chantaburi, where he established a base of operations. When Ayutthaya was finally overcome, the Burmese wrought awful desolation with plunder, pillage, rape and thorough looting. Tens of thousands of Siamese were led away into slavery. After three days, the Burmese withdrew from the capital leaving behind a scene of devastation. The glory of Ayutthaya had finally met it's end and the unity of Siam was broken, and no law existed throughout the Kingdom. Taksin spent the next month mobilizing an army with one goal: to rid the Kingdom of the Burmese. Finally on October 1765 (four months after the fall of the capital), Taksin led his troops against the Burmese garrisons and defeated them. Taksin founded the new capital at Thonburi and proclaimed himself King. The Siamese task was rendered easier with Malay and Lao principalities wishing to gain Siamese aid against Burmese agressions, and duly sent tributes to Thonburi. In 1774 during a Siamese campaign of expansion, Taksin sent his army north to re-capture Lanna and Chiang Mai itself. Chiang Mai had been chaffed under Burmese military rule and had previously been used to stage Burmese expeditions against Ayutthaya. But by now, the Siamese of the north grew tired of Burmese rule, and opted to join Taksin's cause. The Burmese sent a Lanna army to resist Taksin's invading forces, but they went over to the Siamese side and aided in the capturing of the northern cities. In the following year the Burmese couter-attacked and went down as far as Pitsanulok, until the Siamese pushed them back in late 1776.

CHAI YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!~~~~~~~~~~

My grandfather and father always say that HM Taksin the Great was the reincarnation of Ramathibodi I the Mighty.

I think so too. He comes to intervene when we need him so much. When the country is in a time of trouble and insecurity. I believe that His majesty King Bumibhol Adulyadej the Great--is the same man--the same reincarnation of Ramathibodi I the Mighty.

A true buddhisatva--who intervenes time and time again. The Guiding Light of Thailand.

_/l\_

I ADORE YOU YOUR MAJESTY!!! MY KING!!!!!

Wait until Tan Mui is done with the "Naresuan" trilogy. He's next big project will be an epic about King Taksin.

By that time, our competence within the film industry would have been vastly improved. Imagine the production value and quality.

My brother, the world shall see and know OUR side of history now.

I await for that time.

I am DEEPLY IMPRESSED with your knowledge in Thai History, nong chai.

LOL, I'm a p'chai, dude.

You're born in 85. I'm an 84. I'm a year older, ai nong.

_/l\_ kor thoad

The burmese were fierce fighters, no doubt. It is of true miracle that Sri Ayuthaya was able to retain its former glory after a mass destruction which otherwise could have destroyed the kingdom of Siam.

Dont you guys wanna hear these history from the Burmese side? It would be interresting.

Zaw-Gyi where are you ,lets bring it on. No one gonna eat you

The unsurmountable warrior spirit of the Thai can never be truly humbled. When we win battles, we cherish our mastery, when we loose battles--we learn from our mistakes and fight again, when we defeat our enemies--we COMPLETE it.

From the age of Nanzhao, Sukkothaiya, Ayuthaya, Siam/Thailand. We as a people have demonstrated this time and time again.

I did read somewhere that said in Burmese texts, Thais are described as worthy enemies and are respected whereas in the Thai texts .. well we know what Thai people think of the Burmese.

I've yet to read a Burmese version of the historical events that occured during the periods which are famous in the Thai history .. indeed it would be interesting.

As much as I curse the Burmese army during those periods when Ayutthaya lost the major battles; there are images of females being raped while men are killed without reason .. but my mum always said "dont forget that we also did that to other nations .. it just wasn't mentioned as it is human nature to forget about ones sinful actions"

any people who are ready to fight and die for the survival of their land, their country, their identity and to have a country to name their own is a worthy people. (escuse the poor grammar). the thais have always fought for their/our land. it is only right thais are regarded as worthy enemies.

somewhere down the line most of us are guilty of something in our pasts. im very ashamed about belgian colonialism. i've made my feelings clear in other threads about other issues. it is important for us to learn about what our forefathers did to defend and protect thailand and their suffering as that way i beleive that we learn to trully appreciate what we have today (and this goes out not just to thais). like someone once said, its not everyday you get a piece of land you can call your own.

Thais will never never ever bow down to other nations.

<a href="http://365jukebox.com/script/play.cgi?songid=1925" target="_blank">
พระนเรศวรมหาราช - คาราบาว</a>

The song of Pra naresuan MAharach. Enjoy ^ ^

P'Luv3r

H M Sri Suriyadharma Maha Dharmaraja Rajadhipati Mang Ra Hsinbyushin




ascended the throne of Ava in 1763 , succeeding his brother at the age of 27.

As befitting any Burmese monarch much bored of palace intrigue and chin lon , he expanded east , claiming Lan Na and parts of Lan Xang in 1764 , in an attempt to emulate a 16th century predecessor to whom he was entirely unrelated.

Waging war on Thailand came as second nature to kings of this period and were seen by some as an effort to prove their royal pedigree. This hobby seemed even more popular than taking as many concubines as his harem would fit .

( in fact much like King Taksin the Great



his father was no more than a regional commander with no royal lineage who declared himself King after whipping much a$$ )


Anyway to cut a long story short in 1767 the great city of Ayuthaya fell .....







Is is said that to punish the Ayuthayan royalty for their impudence H M HsinByuShin ordered the end of that noble lineage by putting to the sword all their members ( and even those vaguely related ) from the youngest infant to the oldest codger : such was the tradition in those days .

He made sure that Ayuthaya would never rise again by destroying the beautiful city which was the centre of central SE Asian civilisation.


He then took whatever he could and made home with it . In those days land was cheap and Burma had a severe shortage of plumbers , slaves and other tradesmen .


Burmese kings , although some believed Ayuthaya to be firmly within their mandala , never felt obliged to stay long in Siam after a bit of raping and pillaging.


After all Hsinbyushin had several wives and children to get back to.





.... and not forgetting he had four games with the Qing 5 aside footie team to play .


Score : goaless draws x4 .


( The Burmese were out played only 7 months later by the Thon Buri 5 Asiders led by Takky the China man. )







Finally Ekkathat (Boromarachathirat V) the last king of the Ayuthayan lineage was reborn sometime in 1910 or 1911 in Paug Dale in Central Burma into a middle class family.








The rest as they say is history ...

THE SAVIOUR OF AYUTHAYA/SIAM!

HIS MOST ROYAL MAJESTY---KING PHYA TAKSIN THE GREAT!

The area which is now Thailand has been populated since the beginning of civilization in Asia. By the13th century, the Thais ruled over states as far apart as Lanna, Suphannaphum (Suphanburi), Nakorn Si Thammarat and Sukhothai. Sukhothai, however, emerged as the strongest Thai Kingdom in the 13th and started its decline in the14th century. In 1350, the Kingdom of Ayutthaya was “founded” and became the most dominant city state, spreading its influence through warfare and trade all over Southeast Asia. During the 18th century, Burma again expanded its territories and defeated the Thais in several battles. In 1767, after a 15 month seige, Ayutthaya was sacked and burnt by the Burmese, ending its political dominance of the peninsula. A savior of the Thai state emerge – King Taksin the Great who, after a few years, gathered together enough forces to defeat the Burmese and set up the Kingdom of Thonburi.

King Taksin was the only king of the Thon Buri Period. He has been recognized as one of the great Thai kings, for his prowess in warfare, his leadership in liberating the country after Ayutthaya was taken by the Burmese in 1767, and his ability in unifying the country after it had been split up into many factions.

King Taksin was born in 1733 in the reign of King Borommakot of Ayutthaya. He was originally called Sin. His father was a Chinese named Haihong of the Tae clan, who had immigrated to Thailand. The King's mother was a Thai called Nok Lang.There is reliable evidence, that prior to his entering government service, Sin was a trader with a fleet of carts. Later, in recognition of services he had rendered, he was appointed Governor of Tak Province.






In 1765, Phraya Tak came to Ayutthaya to help defend the capital. He fought valiantly and earned great recognition. He was promoted to the title and rank of Phraya Wachira Prakan, Governor of Kamphaeng Phet. It is believed, that prior to the fall of Ayutthaya, he got out of the capital by fighting his way through the Burmese seige with the aim of assembling men to liberate the country.

According to the royal Thai chronicle, Phraya Tak and his followers, after breaking out of Ayutthaya, headed for the east coast. On the way, they encountered many Burmese troops but were able to defeat them all. He became widely known for his military prowess and many came to pledge their service.

In the fifth lunar month of the year 1767, Ayutthaya was lost to the Burmese and the attitudes of high ranking officials changed with the situation. Some thought of setting themselves up as heads of state. Even Phraya Chantaburi, who had promised friendship to Phraya Tak, revoked his promise. The latter, therefore, led his army to capture Chantaburi and Trad and returned to make a stand at Chantaburi, making it his headquarters for collection of provisions and arms. In the meantime, other commanders and officers came to join him. The most important was Nai Sudchinda, an officer of the Royal Pages Department, who later became Khrom Phra Ratchawang Bawon Sathan Monkon in the Reign of King Rama I.


At the end of the monsoon season, Phraya Tak led his forces from Chantaburi to the Chao Phraya River delta in the twelfth lunar month of the same year. After he had taken Thon Buri, he attacked the Pho Sam Ton Camp in Ayutthaya and was able to seize the camp in two days. His triumph over the Burmese at the Pho Sam Ton Camp was symbolic of the liberation of the country. After capturing the camp, he tried to put the country back in order. Then he brought people back to Thon Buri and established it as his capital because the site was more appropriate than Ayutthaya. In 1768 he was crowned king. After the coronation, King Taksin proceeded at once to unify the country . Besides waging war to drive the Burmese out of the country, the king had to subdue the Thais who set themselves up as heads of various factions. His military successes resulted in the country being united once again.


Although warfare took up most of King Taksin's time, he paid a great deal of attention to politics, administration, economy, and the welfare of the country. He promoted trade and fostered relations with foreign countries including China, Britain and the Netherlands. He had roads built and canals dug. Apart from restoring and renovating temples, the king attempted to revive literature, and various branches of the arts such as drama, painting, architecture and handicrafts. He also issued regulations for the collection and arrangement of various texts to promote education and religious studies.Towards the end of the reign, there was trouble in Thon Buri, which was then called Chao Phraya San. Somdet Chao Phraya Maha Kasatsuhk hurried back from his campaign in Cambodia, held an investigation, and let the officials decide on appropriate punishment for King Taksin.Then the people asked the Somdet Chao Phraya to take the throne and rule the country.

King Taksin was put to death on April 6,1782 at the age of 48 after a 15-year reign. After he was executed, his remains were buried at Wat (Temple) Bang Yireua Tai, in 1785, King Rama I (Buddha Yodfa) had the remains disinterred and cremated at the same temple. A tomb containing King Taksin's clothes and a family shrine were found at Ching Hai district in Taechiew province in China in 1921. It is believed that a decendant of King Taksin the Great must have sent his clothes to be buried there to conform to Chinese practice. This supports the claim that the place was his father's hometown.

King Taksin had accomplished so much for the Thais in his short reign. Without his leadership, the country would not have been rid of the Burmese and become unified so soon. In recognition of what he had done for the country, the government has declared December 28 a day of homage to the King. A state ceremony has been held annually at the memorial to King Taksin the Great in Wongwian Yai in Bangkok since 1954. On October 27, 1981, the cabinet passed a resolution to honor him as "King Taksin the Great."

Tell us a bit more about the Qing_Ava wars . There were 4 before the QianLong emperoror signed a treaty with Burma ( Ava )

This is all from my memory so there may be some mistakes.
Most Chinese see that war as a pathetic half hearted attempt to make Burma a protectorate that failed miserably.


It all started in 1765 as Burma's new king expands everywhere and in the north many minority groups(I think it was the shan) runs into Qing side of the border creating problems.

The emperor tells the viceroy of Yunnan-guizhou to secure the border and destroy any Burmese soldiers that cross the border.

The viceroy(Can't remeber his name, lets call him V1) mobilizes 7000 men and engages in a few small skirmashes along the border, the burmese retreats and he proclaims a great victory. (first stage)

He then sends a memorial to the emperor saying that Burma is an easy target and that he could march onto ava and make it a protectorate.

The emperor known as Qianlong was into his 30th year of reign and was becoming very arrogant as he thought he was one of the greatest Emperor in China's history and that Qing was at its height of its power that there was nothing that can't be done, so he asks V1 to proceed.
Qianlong reigned for 60 years his reign can be described as.
first 20 years - good
next 20 years - average
last 20 years - crap

Ayway so V1 sends massives to Ava claiming that Qing and many ally nations will send a grand army to subdue Burma.
In reality he only had over 7000 men, the Burmese after getting the message struck first across the border decimating the Qing forces. (second stage)

The Emperor was furious and he got Viceroy of Shaanxi-Gansu(V2) to take over and sent general from Beijing(G1) with extra men to help.

This time a total of over 14000 men was mobilised and V2 led them while G1 was backup.
They proceeded into Burma trying to reach Ava however Burmese kept retreating and about 30 kilometers outside Ava the Qing side runs out of supplies and could no longer go any further, V2 then decides to withdraw however the Burmese struck back and surrounds V2.
V2 asks help from G1, however G1 runs back into China instead. V2 with starving soldiers and no help coming he commits suicide along with Qing officers, the Qing army is again annhilated.(Stage 3)

The Emperor is now absoluted in a rage, he sentences G1 to death by a thousands cuts and sends more generals from Beijing and he mobilises Solon, Xibe Bannermens from far away as Ninguta in Manchuria and inner mongolia, he also moblises water forces from Fujian.

This time with a force of over 30,000 men and with cannons and everything.
However the commanders mostly from other regions or the north were all unfimiliar with Burma at all.

They decide to invade in july which was the hottest month in Buma.
As the army marches towards Ava northern soldiers started to get sick from all sorts of disease, once again the Qing army runs out of supplies before reaching ava and with nearly half of the men put out of action by tropical deseases the Commanders discuss what actions to take.
Then a Burmese emissary arrives with a peace proposal, The Qing commanders immediately agrees and withdraws.(stage 4)

Thus in 1769 a formal treaty was signed.

Later the emperor was not too happy as he wanted to invade Burma with a even bigger force however because of massive opposition at the court and other matters, eventually the matter was settled for good.





Qianlong in ceremonial armour.




Qing commanders in brigandine armour



amour of banners, most Qing troops were given 1 suit of amour per 2 to 5 men.



blue banners parade
anyway here is the link to many historical chinese weapons.
http://chinese-armour.freewebspace.com/photo2.html


flag of the eight banners


Most Qing infantry was armed with lances or muskets.
Qing calvary was armed with lances and bows.
Qing also had many cannons.



saber



two handed saber, its 1.5m long for cutting up horses.


Do you have any picture of what burmese looked like?
and what weapons were they using? I read that one qing commander was nearly blinded by the fierce fierpower of the Burmese.



Oh yeah.

here is a map of Burma, where was Ava located exactly?



and the modern day eight banners. LOL

with uniforms like that no wonder they weren't successful in Burma ..

it just goes to show that information is the most vital source of victory in any era when it comes to war.

you have to give Burma credit in regards to their prowess in executing warfare. You can hate your enemies but you must also respect them ..

I respect them for their strategic advances--to which we Thais learned many a great lessons in countering. Your greatest enemy--is also your greatest mentor.

Says I.

Thank you for very informative account of this episode of history . I'm afraid my knowledge is limited to that of there being four attempted invasions and four effective repulsions of Qing forces in the 1760s while Burma was also stretched on its eastern front by a two pronged invasion of Siam culminating in the destruction of Ayutthaya in 1767.

I believe it was something to do with the control of trade route and influence in the Shan states.


Burma I think has always been viewed by many Chinese emperors as a tributary state but distance from the centres of power have meant that Chinese influence has not been as strong as in Vietnam.


To answer some of your questions :


Ava was capital of Burma from 1364-1841 founded by King Thadominbya on an artificial island at the confluence of the Ayeyarwady and the Myitnge created by digging a canal linking the two rivers. It is situated about 20 miles to the south and west of Mandalay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ava


There are very few links to give you an idea of what the military of the time would have looked like . The films Bang Rajan and Suriyothai are vaguely accurate.


Here are some pictures of court dress and swords circa 1800s ( Dha / Dah ) . The were broadly 5 -6 eras of court dress and appearance and the transition from the 1600s to 1800s was very subtle.



Officer / Minister / Maid









Dha







Dha - Northern designs to my knowledge - of type possibly carried by Shan troops







Dha - standard replicas - shape is correct but almost all Burmese dhas would have had writing etched onto blade






Dagger


I'll find some more pictures if I can ...

Sleeveless Jacket and Full Skirted Coat of Prince and General






Officer ( Back View ) and cheek cover of helmet ( unfortunately no helmet pics available )






Ceremonial Costume of Princess






Wun Gyi - Minister

http://www.myanmar.com/Ministry/culture/costume/home.htm


Try this link


It's interesting that I can't find many pictures of Burmese cannons on the net as I don't think I've come across many castles and stately homes in the UK which don't have on display an example of a 17 - 19th century Burmese cannon plundered after annexation.




This is one on Calton Hill in Edinburgh . It was originally Portugese but passed into Burmese hands sometime in the 1790s and bears Burmese inscriptions. The Burmese of the day would have used both home manufactured and imported Portugese cannon.




















More Dha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HssqnFZX1yE