Do Manchu's in Liaoning still use Manchu names? or do they use Han Chinese names now?

what do manchu names sound like?

They use Han names as they're fully integrated and assimilated into Chinese society.
The manchu language is nearly extinct.

They dont even use the manchu name of Mukden for Shenyang, Liaoning anymore.

Another koreans trying to provide misinformation about Manchus people. Why do koreans have this strage view? I guess koreans just can not forget about the land called Manchuria. By denying the existence of Manchus, Koreans somehow wish they have a chance to claim Manchuria? LOL. Well at least that's my suspicion.

As far as I know, many Manchu people in China are reviving her culture and language. There is another people in China named Xibo/Xibe living in Xingjiang. They still write and speak Manchu dialect on daily basis. I believe there are 30,000 ~ 40,000 of them. So I guess Manchu language is not going to die as some people wish. Ouch! that gonna hurt some people's feeling.

What are you talking about?

I stated facts.

Manchu revival nowadays is too little, too late.
A bunch of Han Chinese with some manchu in them dressing up in traditional manchu garb isn't going to preserve anything.

It's a shame the language and much of the identity of Manchus will be gone forever.
Xibe language still isnt the exact way actual manchus in the northeast speak.
It's only a matter of time until the Xibe language disappears off the face of the earth as well.

Just shows how well China preserves things of such importance to their history.

^and i suppose koreans would have maintained manchu's cultural integrity?

I think Korea would place the preservation of local indigenous languages and one of such historic importance as a priority, for sure, but forget what ifs cuz it's gone.

lol, forget about it. The Chosens never ruled Manchuria. It was the Jurchens that ruled parts of northern Korea.

Besides, most of the Chosens existing in Chinese borders were not native to the land. They were forcibly relocated into Manchukuo like dogs by the Japanese rulers in order to balance out the Han population.

then why is it in korea, the population is > 99% korean. in china han chinese make up 91% of the population. if what you say is true, then shouldn't korea have a higher diversity of indigenous non-koreans and have official recognition of various non-korean ethnic minority groups like the china's 56 officially designated ones?

since you admit yourself that these languages are gone, then the preservation of these language must not have been of great importance to korean policy? you criticize china's policies on minorities, yet your country practices the much same policies, if not to a greater extent.

I dont think Koreans are in a good position to critise China in terms of culture preservation. Just take a look at modern korean TV programming. It's all about hip pop and everything western. On the contrary, you can see traditonal Chinese culture stuff like folk dances, folk music, folk arts on Chinese TV on regular basis. I think Chinese media is not western enough which is a good thing. You cant say the same with korean media. Not to mention Koreans through away Hanja which is very much part of korean culture. (A writing system koreans have used for 1000 years.) You don't see Japanese do that, don't you? So I just don't see how koreans are good at preserving her culture.

Korea isn't a huge expanse of land as China.

Which indigenous non-korean/proto korean group has ever called the peninsula its home?

If Korea had a sizable manchu population it wouldnt let its language or culture die out to make their historical and land claims stronger.

I doubt it. Koreans could not even stand the existence of super tiny minority called Hwagyo(ethnic Chinese in korea) in the 50's. how could korean embrace multi-culturalism? Aren't koreans pride themselves to be the people of the most homogeneous race on earth?

your language is so mean.

agreed.

just a clarification though, the term "滿洲" is a western invention, and was never used as reference by either manchus or han, therefore the term "Manchuria" to refer to 東北 is incorrect.

@棒子

land claims? what land claims? what the fu-k are you talking about, had it not been for @$$hole mao, the manchu's ancestoral land at 長白山 would still be part of our territory. you can start by giving back what is ours. fu-king hypocrite.

This is such a fu-king disgrace. Somebody always thinks they're always an expert on YOU. I'm so sick and tired of it. CJK most definitely has not even been to China and is just blindly making generalizations to satisfy his desire to prove Manchurians, the masters of Manchuria are extinct, factlessly as if Korea has more legit reasons to claim Manchuria second to Manchurians.

There are small villages of full blood Manchurians who speak Manchurian and still teach Manchurian to their kids. The culture is well alive and. He talks about mixed Manchus as if they're worth less than a full blood Manchurian. Manchurians have a lot of mix them anyways, they actually interact with groups around them unlike certain racist and ethnic supremacist whose country is almost exclusively one ethnic and is deciding to scold a country with 56 ethnic groups that they don't know how to handle their business?

There's hundreds and thousands of Manchurian descent relearning what was lost in the parental generation. China kept 56 ethnic groups alive while the so called Tungus stocks who also played parts in building what is Korea today has long disappeared. Sounds a bit hypocrital don't we?

I can't believe I actually agaree with everything northwestern_student has said. I'm simply amazed.

Lastly, GotMilk: Manchurian actually gave a lot of its elements to Mandarin Chinese. IMO Manchurian sounds slightly more choppy and less fluidy than Mongolian. But all in all, it's still similar to Mongolian and various Tungus languages. Some bannermen kept their names and never changed it, but most have changed it to Chinese names. Their names are usually Chinese first name + Manchurian lastname. The first name a lot of the times is a word play on a Manchurian name. Straight up Manchurian names are reviving, however. You can just go to a Chinese search engine and find them.

www.qiren.cn has an incredible amount of info about Manchurian bannermen.

Manchurian names are a lot like Mongolians. Names like "hero," "grassland,""eagle," and stuff like that. The words for hero in Manchurian sounds very similar. In Mongolian, it's "baatar" with less emphasis on the r. In Manchurian it's "bateru." And it was a fairly common name back them.

For one, Ive been to China twice.
Though I cant say ive met actual people who claim their manchu.

When did I say Manchus are long gone?
I said their language is endangered.
If youre confident to believe that the language has another millenium or even a couple hundred years of survival then so be it.

When did i claim anything?
Why are you all so defensive and resort to cursing and incivility as if Im out to get something?

Some of you need to chill.

Agree with CJK. people...cool it! We should keep discussion civil here. Don't be too overly sensitive. We are all Asians after all.

^No longer an endangered language. You're still wrong. The emphasis on reviving Manchurian heritage has taken off. You'd know this if you lived in China long enough in the Northeast. There are other languages in China that are closer to being on the verge of extinction than Manchurian.

I wasn't cursing at you directly. I was extremely offended when you made it sound as if Manchurians are dead when we're well alive and kicking and hell making a come back. I'm not going to sugar coat anything when I'm offended and that I need to defend my people.

The Manchurian language among other languages of China have survived for over 1000 years. Different periods came when changes were made but the original forms of writing are all preserved. How did Koreans do? Not so well even with a writing system that 100% of the population knew how to write now did we? But I am glad that Hanja is making a come back though at least. With a homogenous society like Korea's, there would've been I'd rather be a minority in China 1000000000x over being in Korea as China is a more of a minority friendly country as long as you don't try to stir up $hit and want to claim independence.

Are you Chinese?

^Depends on your definition of "Chinese." I refer myself as "mixed Asian."

Tell that to the Australian Aboriginies. they're all part white so their just dancing around a circle practicing their culture, whats wrong with that? so they're not Abos anymore? .....lawl

I guess a more accurate statement would be, the manchurian identity/language is dying or has been mostly dead, but there are some who are trying to revive it?

but yeah, I would guess and agree with you that it is too little too late. Just a prediction tho, like the a stock market bet.

I love how someone who knows absolutely nothing about a subject can make himself sound like an expert lol.

The Manchurian language was never dead. The numbers of fluent speakers decreased in the 1900s but the numbers are increasing pretty fast now because of recent promotion of Manchurian culture. There are schools that teach the Manchurian language now.

Stop claiming it's non existent death already. Jeez lol.

Doesn't matter. Manchuria is still the land of Manchus and Chinese.

does anyone know currently how many schools and how many fluent speakers?

i mean, we have like 5,000 chinese posters on AF, zero speak Manchu. I know 75% of overseas chinese are southerners, while china is different percentage, but still, there is a little bit of correlation.

if 5,000 Koreans are on AF, but zero can read Garimto, then I would say its safe to say Garimto is dead. If 50 people in all of Korea can read Garimto, its safe to say Garimto is pretty much a dead written language.

btw, sometimes statements are just statements. they are not building blocks to some unstoppable unreversable trend. If I say, my television has lately been turned off, it does not mean, it will be turned off forever. It does not mean it will be turned off forever. It just means the television has lately been turned off. now if YOU say that, it might mean something different, but that doesn't mean thats what it means when others say the same thing. I hope someone out there understood that~

-_-

There are some who claim to be Manchus on AF, but only Hawaii and I are the real deal. I think his mom speaks Manchurian. I'm just a half breed but the older generation Manchus in the family all know how to speak it.

The statements that I stated were factual whereas some people's statements are just guesses, or hopes. ^_^

The trend is that there is a large movement to promote Manchurian cultures to young Manchurian generation. This short article from March 2006 talks about Qiqihar Manchurian Language School in Qiqihar, Northeast China.

Article
A few pages out of a kid's Manchurian book.



These are people from San Jia Zi, a village of exclusively Manchurians. They speak Manchurian there.
Manchurian village

^ good stuff

Except the girl on myspace knows $hit about race.

"Han Chinese are mixed of Tungus and Baiyue/Malay" ?

My mother doesn't speak Manchurian, she doesn't even speak Mandarin. I almost never heard her speak Mandarin, even though my father speaks fluent Mandarin and Shanghaiese. She grew up in Guangzhou and Hong kong. She has a semi rare Chinese last name, which may relate to the original Manchu last name. She and my aunts have very beautiful and unique first names which were taken out from a poetry.

When I was young, the uncle of my mother in Hong Kong was said to read Manchurian, My Aunt said very few people can understand the script anymore. It may not be true for now anymore I guess.

there are so many misconceptions of the Han Chinese, it is just ridiculous.


anyway, I am glad there is a revival in Manchu tradition.

ARguing without answering questions. Please list Manchu names in PRC.

cute blog, glad that manchus's culture heritage is reviving.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...67-31e8d423db82
qiren z'uigiya hala- is that manchu name

can you stop referring to "koreans" this and that. stop generalizing. stop talking about koreans so much if you really don't care.

I see. My grandmother has a lastname and only about 20 families in all of China has that name and they share a common non-Chinese origin

Good thing is that they're compling books and opening up schools for these young Manchurian kids to learn what was lost in their parents' generation which is a good thing. Plus, the Xibo people, there's a lot of them around in Xinjiang province, they speak Manchurian with an accent. Their dialect and the regular Manchurian are very similar and they each can understand each other without problems, it's like Polish and Czech.


Eh, there are softwares. But you can download them and type Manchurian.

qiren z'uigiya hala
^"qiren" is Mandarin Chinese and it means "bannerman" and z'uigiya hala is a name. I'm not sure about the "hala" part but z'uigiya is a name. Something something "---iya" or "---ya" or "----wa" is usually a girl's name I think. It's like the Mongolian name "Tuya" or "Zaya" or "Narangowa" (I think I spelled it wrong).


Han Chinese is a big mix. The composition of genetic markers of North/Northeast Han Chinese share a lot of similarities to Tungus and Altaic populations in that region, which is very understandable considering these Han Chinese lived with these groups for so many centuries, whereas the Southern Han Chinese tend to have more genetic markers of the Southeast Asian population such as Thai, Burmese, Cambodian, Vietnamese, etc etc. If you compare a Han Chinese from Heilongjiang and a Han Chinese from Hainan Island, even a non-expert on Chinese history can tell that they're of different origins, although both can speak fluent Mandarin and share similar culture.

---

Here are some Manchurian clan titles and names taken out of history.
Tulišen - which was Sinofied into "Tu Lishen."

If there are many brothers in a family, their names are usually something like this, with the first syllable/tone changed:
Ulušun,
Hūlušun,
Ilušun,
Delušun,
Fulušun and
Jalušun in order of age, where only the initial syllables are changed.

Another example is Aisin Gioro Nurhaci. His brothers were Šurgaci and Murhaci.

During the Qing Dynasty, the Manchus gradually adopted two-character Chinese given names (but not family names), and used Manchu transcription of them. For example, Aisin Giogo Puyi (愛新覺羅 溥儀, Pinyin: Aixinjueluo Puyi), the last emperor of the Qing dynasty. His first name is a two character Chinese name (Puyi) and his last name is entirely Manchurian (Aisin Giogo).

Princess Chun (1884-1921), given name Youlan (幼蘭), daughter of the Manchu general Ronglu (榮祿) (1836-1903). All with full Manchurian lastnames but Chinese firstnames.




An article from University of Michigan about reviving Manchurian identity.

Article on Manchurian culture reconstruction

ok...I will shut up.

This statement is OVER-STRETCHED by a mile in any fictitious claim northern and southern Han Chinese have great disparity in genetic markings.Chinese is now a generic race of inter-mixed peoples with huge population,the diversity is TOO great to make any conclusive unscientific remark.

There are northern Han Chinese are more non-Altaic,whereas their southern kins mostly of Hua-Xia ancestry from Central Plains.

^Just look at the phenotypes. Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese look very different. I only stated a general statement. There are tons of exceptions. What I said was valid. No anthropologists will tell you that there are no Altaic and Tungus elements in the Northern Han Chinese population.

I think when you said "southern kins" you meant Central China. Far south has tons of . Look at Cantonese, Fukkinese and Southwestern Chinese. Some can easily pass of Vietnamese, Thai, or other Southeast Asians. But they're still Han Chinese nontheless.

The difference is there. If two people look phenotypically different then they obviously have genetic differences even if they're over 99% the same, genetically. Northern populations carry certain genetic markers that Southern populations don't, and Southern populations carry certain genetic markers. That's a trend, not the absolute truth. That's why dialects developed. That's why cultural differences developed. It's like Northeast and central part of the US is full of mostly Germanic and Anglo elements whereas the South e.g. Louisiana has an especially high population of Creoles (French origin) but they all share a common culture and are all Americans. Not an absolute trend, but it's definitely a visible and existing overall difference.

Granted, this source was taken out of a more Euro-centric website, this is quite informative about the distribution of the Asian Tat-C marker in to trace Ural-Altaic influences. This was the genetic mapping of a Tat-C genetic marker which was dispersed from Central Asia to North Asia towards Siberia.

You can see that the C allele is very high in far Northern China, Manchuria, Mongolia and up to Central and Eastern Siberia; whereas it's nearly non-existent in the Southern parts of China. This is just among a few general differences between Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese.

The HuaXia descended from the North China Plain which is largely located in the central/north part of China and the Han ethnicity is composed of the HuaXia and DongYi.

suren911, your assessment is very sketchy at best and is very misleading. "North" and "South" China are very ambiguous terms, from the looks of it, you're only making references to the 廣東, 福建 provinces and assuming that southwest in your case being 雲南 (which much of the population are already minorities). this leaves out the bulk of the han chinese population that is located in central and eastern China, and if you're chinese, you should be aware of the stereotypes of 四川人 (which is also the largest province i believe...).

I purposely left out Central and Eastern part of China in my post because supposedly Eastern parts such as Shandong and Central areas has supposedly some of the most pure Han Chinese with the trait of split pinky toenail. (I'm serious. Just google split toenail and Han Chinese). I'm a bit iffy about it but it does kind of make sense because there are many migrations of Southeast Asian stocks in far southern parts of China and migrations of Altaic and Tungus and even Caucasoid groups in far north whereas the Central parts have been the heart of the Han Chinese civilization for over 5000 years and it's also in the middle on the map so these "barbarians" on the outskirts have less contact with the central parts of China.

I'm not aware of the stereotype of Sichuan people but they do make some helluva spicy dishes which I love.

Don’t you think you guys are bit too obsessive with genetics? Ethnicity has far more to do with culture and language than genetics. The Xibo people（锡伯族）in Xingjiang( northwest China) are probably more related to Xianbei (proto-mogols) ethnically. But they speak a Manchu dialect which is a Tungus language. So are they mogols? or manchus? The Daur people (达斡尔族) in inner mongolia are descents of Khitan. But there are also Khitan descents living in Yunnan province (Southwest China.) They speak, write, and live like regular Han people. There are 150,000 of them. They even have khitan geneology books and their ancester tombstones in Yunnan have Khitan characters written all over the place.Yet their ethnicity is Han. So are they Han? or Mongols? Given the wide open geography of northern China, it’s quite normal there were interbreeding between the stepp people and people of the central plain. There were two major fragmentation and fusion eras of different ethnicities in Chinese hisotry. It’s unavoidbale everyone of us has drops of blood of different ethnicities. China has been a melting pot for a few thousands years. It’s an on-going process. There is no such thing as pure breed or pure genetics based on ethnicity unless we all start marrying out own sisters. LOL.

This is total fallacy,I've known Shandong native Han Chinese look both Koreans and Cantonese.You mentioned Altaic crap for Northern Han Chinese,no Koreans would buy this blood connection seriously.Most Koreans have distinctive Mongol and Tungusic facial features.

I don't what Cantonese you drawn your comparisions,those in Hong Kong DON'T LOOK near SE Asians you falsely insinuated here.

There are tons of inconclusive DNA mappings with " conflicting " analysis.

Not once did I say all Cantonese look Southeast Asians. You're purposely twisting my words and disrespecting my argument. You can provide charts, statistics, and various articles but as far as anyone who is capable of doing scholarly thinking and debates is concerned, all you've been doing is ranting and telling me I'm wrong, instead of proving me wrong with factual evidence. You claimed that I stated a fallacy in my argument, but you failed to prove me wrong. One Shandong Native who looks Korean and another looks Cantonese, but what do either prove? Shandong is far from Canton and you've simply stated two outliers of a population. By raising a statistically odd event out, you're not going to prove anything. It's as silly as saying just because you know one person from a city who was struct by thunder therefore you conclude that everyone else from that city also have been struct by thunder. Plus, how do I know you're just making things up? Provide some facts facts facts.

I consider myself a Northeast Chinese but I have more Mongolian blood than anything else but I don't speak Mongolian or live with the culture. My ID card in China says "Han Chinese" but I look nothing like a Han Chinese and get mistaken for some other ethnicity all the time. There are tons of people like me in Heilongjiang, Liaoning, and Jilin province. You talk as if you've spent time in Northeast China. I've lived there half of my life and I think I have a pretty good idea of what people there look like. About 10% of students in my elementary school were Chinese students of Mongolian heritage, another 15% has Manchurian origins and I just went to a regular school, not even a school for minorities. In addition to this observation of mine, do take a look GotMilk's posts with Northerner and Northeasterners' pictures and tell me if they look like Southern Chinese.
Here

There's a large Asian organization on my campus and tons of these people are Cantonese and I can pick them out a lot of them from Central and Northern Chinese easily because a lot look very unique. Not all, but a a lot of Cantonese have an unique look that's different from people much north of Canton.
Do take a look at this discussion thread about the possible genetic differences between Northern and Southern Chinese.

That Asian Tat-C marker chart I posted was not a conclusion, but simply data collected by anthropologists across the world. It's merely a presentation. I did not post anything regarding their findings, but as indicated, I think it's pretty obvious that the Tat-C marker, and that just means there are much more markers that are exclusive to only southern populations and northern populations, even though they are similar and are of the same ethnic group. But you can choose to disregard the factual evidence provided in that chart because after all, truth is sometimes hard to accept.

As far as anthropology and history goes, neither of us are correct, but I'm simply stating my findings. If you want to prove me wrong, provide some evidence at least. If you fail then, then I have no choice but to ignore your blatant put down posts and naysayings just because you don't like the facts I presented. Give me an intellectual debate with factual evidence, papers and articles. Just don't make claims with nothing to back your claims up. It's just a friendly debate, don't get hostile and don't waste my time.

i would say from my experience in beijing, that the tungusic component in northern chinese population is very high, almost as high as it is koreans. but of course, that is only in beijing, it may not apply to other northern chinese like shanxiren.

These days half the time I can tell apart Koreans and Chinese easily no matter where the Chinese came from.
That says something.

Once you live among them for long period of time it becomes easy to notice the differences.

i would say from my experience in beijing, that the tungusic component in northern chinese population is very high, almost as high as it is koreans. but of course, that is only in beijing, it may not apply to other northern chinese like shanxiren.

^Yeah, it seems to be mostly in the eastern parts.

MANCHU NAMES PLEASE....
modern Manchu names??????

How can be there modern Manju names since they don't even know their native laguage ?

I believe some Manchus are having manchu style names again on Chinese govt registrar.It should not be too hard to find out thier original family names. They follow certain rules to adopt sinonized surname. It's not like they just randomly pick a han surname.

From your post i understood that Manchus currently don't have or don't use their native manchu name. So they need to re-apply for their manchu name.
If they are don't allowed to use their native name officially, do they use it their home?



What do you mean that they have to find out thier original family names?
Did they lost their manchu name? You wrote :- They follow certain rules to adopt sinonized surname.

What was the rules they followed and adopted sinonized surname?What would happen If you refuse to have sinosized version of manchu name, keep real manchu name. Isn't that rule soft pressure to sinosize non-han chinese people?

Most Manchus have Han surname. Generally they didn't just pick any odd name instead they have have books which match Manchu surnames to its Han counterpart.
eg . Tonggia-Tong , Wanggia-Wang...

Lots of new generation of Manchus don't even know what their original Manchu surnames were before their ancestors willingly adopted Han surnames, they go around the internet asking about it.

However there are many Manchus who have kept their original Manchu surnames.

Sorry I don’t know that. I am no Manchu expert. What I understand is that there are some Manchu descents do request to have their names revert back to Manchu style name. But they have to change their ethnicity label first. A lot of them are mixed heritage.





I believe most of Manchus adopted sinic names even before 1911 revolution. (maybe during late-qing dynasty?) It was not some sort of social pressure forced them to adopt sinic name. Most likely it was just for convenience sake. Certainly there was some social pressure to sinonized themsleve after the collapse of Qing dynasty. If you were a Manchu, I believe you would do the same. But there is no such thing as if the govt systematically forced them to change.

As for now, no average Chinese care if whoever wants to revert their names back to whatever. My mother has family name Ma( 马) from quangzhou fujian province. ( a known port city with sizable Arab and Persian traders community during Yuan and Ming dynasty.) The “ma” surname is also a known surname with middle east or central Asian origin. so more or less I perhaps has a tiny tiny little bit of Arab or Persian blood in me. So am I supposed to go looking for my middle east ancestry? Average Chinese of whatever ethnicities these days simply don’t drill on things like that. Making money is far more important.

According to one of my Manchu friend, most of them adopted one of 10-15 transliteral sinic surnames which sounds similar to original Manchu names like Ming_loyalist mentioned. One of my Manchu friends, his last name is 傅(fu), his original Manchu surname is fujia or fucha. (I don’t remember the exact spelling.) So it was not like they just randomly adopt sinic surname. Whether they completely lost their heritage, I reserve my doubt. From my personal experience, people with ½ manchu blood more or less know something about their manchu heritage. It’s hard to say about people with ¼ or 1/8 manchu blood. But there is definitely a govt and individual efforts reviving manchu language and culture heritage.

Is there a manchu autonomous region??
I'm guessing there isn't cuz otherwise much of manchuria would be an autonomous region today.

It's kind of ironic how the once rulers of china have largely become the people they ruled.
I think the loss of much of their language, which equates to a huge loss in a people's identity, is the cause of not having their own autonomous region....unless they do, which defeats my theory.