Well I knew this would come sooner or later.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/new...0610120025.html
"It's all the fault of those dirty American devils! They should have been nicer to Kim Jong-Il! Bunch of jerks!"
I had high hopes that the South Koreans would finally see the truth and throw out the Uri Party morons who brought them to this point. Don’t they realize that without the aid the US (under Clinton), Japan and S. Korea sent the North wouldn’t have been able to build the device? Our policies haven’t failed; South Korea’s sunshine policy has failed. It makes the South look weak and gives the North Koreans the impression they can do whatever they want with impunity, and that their bad behavior will be greeted with more goodies to prop the regime up for a while longer. As has been said before, “rewarding bad behavior only gets you worse behavior”.
It never ceases to amaze me how easily Koreans are fooled by communists and other assorted left wing crazies. You've all misidentified your enemy again! Just like with Bush (who’s killed 0 Koreans) and Kim Jong-Il (who has killed millions via starvation and other methods). If you think it's our fault then we really should just pull out, cancel the entire alliance and cease all trade with both of the Koreas. That way you guys would have your "independence" and could be on your merry way to continue to be blackmailed. As for us… I hope we’re done rewarding the North’s bad behavior.

they never said that. dont try to twist what theyre trying to say.

so what about hating bush? you think koreans are the only people in the world who hate this guy? the whole world was like "fuk, 4 more years of this nonsense" when bush got reelected. and they dont LOVE kim jong il, they hate him as well. its not like KJI is south korea's favourite adopted son.

america wouldnt attack north korea beacuse theres nothing to gain from it. the whole region would be in total chaos. america only attacks those it has interests in *cough* oil *cough*

stop spewing your anti-korean propoganda.

Oh shut it. "Our policies haven't failed" my @$$! How close is the US policy in stopping the Chinese aids to North Korea? Any closer now with Bush in charge?

If The US and his allies had tried harder to engage the N Koreans in dialogue and lift some of the sanctions in place, KJI would not have been so desperate. Instead, you fu-ks labelled him as part of the axis of evil, instill sanctions and in some ways "threatened" his regime hoping it will collapse.

Youknow what, the madman's back is against the wall, and if he goes down, he's gonna take a lot of people with him.

Stop being a troll....... the UN and the world knows that Kim is a lunatic. He cant be reasoned with...the sanctions were his own doing.

bush is a stupid prick that broke the sunshine policy.

well yes, clinton did make amends, but he never made u.s. seem threatening. bush stop aiding north korea, and in response north korea said, if you act like this, we have arm missles and we'll use it.

so bush then says the guy is crazy...

...thats half the story.

why did 9/11 and the war on terror happen after bush stepped into office. He's a stupid idiot, that only thinks about how he feels.

Come on man-------- thats just silly. Bush isnt the cause of 9/11 or the NK situation. These things were brewing before he was in office.

How old were you in 1990s? If you dont know anything about how the Clinton adminstration handled N Korea in the 90s, you should shut the fuk up.

Bush being an idoit and his assistants (vice pre/DOD head) being blood thirst tyrants are well recognized around the world. There is nothing to debate about that. Aggression againt Iraq has already caused 650,000 iraqis dead. So much for beauty of American freedom and democracy. The US Neocon regime is so fixated with containing China. A potential Korean War II which possibly will cause millions of deads or millions of fleeing NK refugees that crashes SK economy are not Neocons concerns. All they care is the world domination.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...10/11/uiraq.xml

america = drops two bombs on japan, gets involved in vietnam war (commits many atrocities), invades afghanistan, invades iraq.

gee. how NOBLE america is!

*sarcasm*

the sane ones are south koreans.

The U.S. went too soft on China, and too harsh on NK. That was their policy mistake.

US did the right move with China. They used economics to make China a more "freer" country, but fuked up on Nk. With that policy, it has worked with China.

If they had used the same hardline stance with China backin the 70s, it would be worse for US than with NK now.

Not to mention the fact that the US cozied up to China in the 70s to help counter Russia, just like how the US is sleeping with India right now to counter China.

The US is not sleeping with India.It is infact helping Pakistan destabilise India.I would say the US has been sleeping with S Korea for the past half-century but treated N Korea very shabbily.

and there are many sane Koreans left.I object to the title of this thread.Mods plz don't let a foolish member call all Koreans silly.

We never agreed to go along with the Sunshine policy and it was S. Koreas policy anyway. We can't break a policy that isn't ours. The North had been breaking its non proliferation agreements for years and we stopped sending them aid. That's all.


Japan attacked us in the first place, we were trying to clean up the mess the French left, and the muslims attacked us on 9/11 and before. All of the acts you mentioned (Nukes etc...) were justified. We haven't "started" a war in quite a long time. We're usually attacked first or provoked by another country. We're not perfect but we're far more "NOBLE" than most. If any other country was in our place they would act far more aggressively.

What does my age have anything to do with what insanity is going on in NK?

Not in the mood to argue--- so screw u ... we own u and ur starving country. Sucks doesnt it? Hahaha

Well, maybe he is evil. He does have 200,000+ Koreans in what amount to death camps, has caused mass starvation because of his reckless policies. There's nothing wrong with calling evil evil. There is something wrong with people who object when others don't want to donate to evil.


Yep Clinton did a great job indeed. He tried to reconcile with NK and give Uncle Kim a basketball. He got broken promises in return. The NKs were breaking the deal the WHOLE TIME so of course Bush (not my fav pres by the way) canceled the aid.


Half of that is correct.

It's not anti-Korean. It's anti-leftist, anti-communist and pro-logic. NKs excuse, that many S Koreans have bought, that it needs nukes for defense is bull. They didn't have nukes for 50 years and we didn't attack them. They need the nukes so they can bully S Korea and demand more and more aid from the world. Kim Dae-jung is totally responsible for all of this. He should be arrested and executed for aiding S Koreas real enemy, the North.
We are not S Koreas enemy, Bush isn't S Koreas enemy. It should be remembered that before we let S Korea export all their goods here their GDP/C was lower than African countries. We have served as an open market and a shield for S Korea for over 50 years now (and will continue to with the Nuke umbrella) and basically all we get is abuse. I, frankly am tired of it and would much prefer Park, Yi or Chun to these Uri fools. At least Yi, Park and Chun opposed S Koreas real enemy instead of S Koreas only real ally.
Let's just hope the S Korean military still has some sense.

The u.s didnt attack them in those 50 years because they were under the protection of the USSR which had nukes. NK is building nukes because once a country has nukes they can no longer be bullied by other nations. look at israel. If israel wouldnt have had nukes the arab nations would have wiped them in a third war. In 2000 north korea was slowly opening up, and they became more friendly towards everyone including the U.S..but when bush came to power and meantioned nk in his axis of evil speech it changed everything. Im not saying its all the U.S fault but they did play in important role to how nk reacts today




Well if Bush is causing unrest in your country and is risking war for no perticular reason in your country, you wouldnt say, aawww come on without the u.s we would be nothing. Thats not how it works.

so true. US dont give a damn about oppressed ppl. just look at sudan where genocide is routine thing for them.



yeah it's always those damn liberals and media's fault. US is always good.

noble? non-provoking? US' involvement in middle east and korea goes back century. US even helped japan annex korea. everything US screws up comes back to bite her @$$. wonder what native americans' reaction would do if they hear that.

US invads iraq and said to liberate ppl. stop the threat of evil dictator. and hinting iran and NK that they are next in line. but when iran and NK refuses to obey US policy, what does big bad US do? absolutely nothing. did US at least helped iraqis? not at all. it's a total mess and it's in brinks of civil war. war on terror? my @$$. US border is wide open and terrorists could have sneaked and set up their base already. US could care less.

"President" Roh and the Uri Party are just playing the blame game now that their policy resulted in utter failure. They simply can't admit that the Sunshine Policy didn't work, and their entire diplomatic policy was a serious fu-k-up, ultimately serving North Korea's interests. Lets just be patient and wait. Their days in politics are limited, as they stand no chance in the next elections.

China ain't going to stop aiding NK until the Taiwan issue is resolved. I honestly don't think China really cares bout NK but its using it as a deterrent against US support of Taiwanese independence.

China is going to continue playing the international game of playing both sides. They'll continue aiding NK but on the political front, they'll continue pretending they are resentful of Kim's regime.

if it wasnt for america, this world would trult be a saner place.

america's nuclear arsenal is more than 100 times more powerful than north korea's. america has conducted numerous nuclear tests. yet they think its okay. when others conduct the same tests, america goes ape$hit. who made america the world police.

i am agaisnt any nation having nukes (inculding north korea) , yet the hypocrisy the United States of America shows is laughable. USA dropped two nukes. it is the only country to have done this. whether or not they were justified or not, it was a crime and an unspeakable one at that.

having america tell other nations to not develop their nuke programs is like a chain smoker telling a person who just started smoking "dont smoke" or something along those lines.

America's war on Iraq has caused 650 000 iraqi civilian casualties. the country is on the brink of civil war. the infrastructure has collapsed.

If we had gone into Sudan we would be ridiculed and attacked for that too.


I hope you're right, but I wouldn't discount the effect anti-American rhetoric could have in the next election. Anyway, if the GNP doesn't take control next time around SK's in for even more trouble and abuse from the North.


I totally agree.


If it wasn't for America the world would be in a state of anarchy. Even that lefty Blair understands that.


Someone who actually lives there says that number is bs. He doesn't go into specifics but the study was seriously flawed from what I've read. The infrastructure was in shambles when the war began. Don't be foolish and act like Iraq was a rose garden where everyone was happy and no one ever got hurt before the mean old USA got there. You could say that the "country" was already in a state of civil war since the central govt (Saddam) didn't even control the northern part of the country before.
http://politicscentral.com/2006/10/11/jacc...del_respond.php

We didn't attack for 15 odd years after the Soviets were finished and the soviets wouldn't have started a war with us over NK anyway. The Arabs won't be able to wipe out Israel. In 2000 NK was already breaking their agreements . Umm Bush isn't causing unrest in your country. Communists are. And yes, that is how it works. Without the US S Korea probably wouldn't exist and if it did exist it would be in the same state as those horrid South Asian countries or the Philippines. Just look at the nighttime sat. photo and think who's responsible for all that light in S Korea. US!

the U.S was fighting other wars in those 15 years. Teh soviets might not have started a war over nk, but the U.S wouldnt want to risk war with a close ally of the ussr now would they?Vietnam wasnt a close ally of the ussr and china btw.



Right. The israelies have a huge population of 5 million people and they arent surrounded by hostile arab nations at all.


Just look at some neutral sources before you open you bush loving mouth. European ones would do.



You dont seem to get it do you> if a country does something good for your country it doesnt make it right for them to jeopordise your safety. You could say the same thing about all the western european nations, and they still critisize bush!

Actually the us also helped out the SEA countries but the people were just too inefficient. U.S might have provided a good economic plan, but south koreans improved it and did all the necessary labour. For you everything is either good or bad, the world isnt that simple buddy.

Philippine's economy is growing fast. And many Southeast Asian countries didn't recieve much economic aid from the US. They got rich or are starting to improve their economy from doing business with other countries. This includes Southeast Asian countries that used to be communist.


I'm an American, so I'm not saying this out of nationalism. The US didn't pay for those lights. Much of the new infrastructure that you see in South Korea today was done by the South Koreans. And South Korea doesn't owe anyone in terms of money. South Korea has repaid the money from the IMF within less than a year. What started South Korea's economic boost was South Korea doing business with the American military for the Vietnam War, like how Japan's economic rise started with the Korean War. Also, during the late 60s, joint partnership with foreign companies (such as Hyundai joining with Ford) helped the economic rise.

By the way, I disagree with total economic sanctions on NK. That doesn't help the NK civilians. I agree with blocking any resources that would enable NK to make WMDs, but food should be allowed to be sent to the North Koreans. South Korea and China will continue to send food-aid.

The Philippines is still in a very bad state, they don't even control all of their territory. I didn't say we paid for the lights, but where did SK get the money to build their infrastructure and pay for the lights? From exporting their goods to us. They certainly didn't get it from Russia, China or NK. Don't act like us providing an open market for SK had nothing to do with SK economic progress, it obviously did.
The food just goes to the NK military anyway. It's not Japan, Korea or the US's job to feed NK. It's the job of NK. Maybe instead of spending their time developing weapons that they don't need they should try growing more food...

the US opened its economy to SK. Where do you think you exported all your stuff to? You certainly didn't do any trade with China, NK or the Soviet Union. And you guys didn't trade with Japan until much later on. The US built a lifeline to the Japanese and south korean and Taiwanese economies after WW2 to make these states into models of democracy in Asia as an effort to contain communism.

Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and HK all benefitted enormously from US support, much at China's expense.

An example is China's economy today. Even if China were able to make high quality products, they wouldn't be able to sell them to the US as easily as south korea or japan was able. The US puts up trade barriers against chinese products. Whereas during the cold war, the US gave heavy leeway for japanese and south korean products.

What wars? The skirmish in Iraq(to clarify, the 1st Gulf War)? The nonsense in the Balkans? Those weren't large enough wars to prevent us from acting somewhere else at the same time. Keep in mind that in the 90's we had a larger military, this means that it is more difficult for us to act in several places at once now than it was then. Therefore it is even more unlikely that we would attack NK now (esp with the nukes) than it was then.

The Jews have lost their b@lls for some reason, but they could at anytime defeat any of their neighbors, with or without nukes.

Why is it that you seem to think we WANT to cause the destruction of Seoul? How would that benefit us? How would that benefit Bush? We didn't attack NK for all that time because it would be horrible for SK and us not because we were afraid of the Sov's.

Just like SK, Western Europe is dominated by left wing anti-American scum and is not "neutral". I would suggest you read the book "Anti-Americanism" by Jean-Francois Revel (a Frenchman) so you would understand that the Euros didn't magically start hating us when Bush took office. They've resented us for a long long time.
The world may not be that simple but NK is. It is run by an evil man surrounded by other evil men.

^At China's expense? Are you kidding me? Just shut up. If you don't know anything, if US blocks China, it hurts Korea and Japan directly because their high tech and other products are made in China. DUH.

Are you attributing Korea's success on aid, help from Americans? NONSENSE. Many other countries received the same aid as Koreans, why haven't they risen to the level Korea has?

which countries received the same aid as south korea, japan, taiwan and HK? Yeh, Western Europe was devastated after WW2 and as a result of the Marshall plan they received heavy US aid and seems like to me they did pretty good with it.

Which other countries are you talking about that received heavy US support and failed economically?

South korea was the frontline of the cold war. There was no way the US was going to abandon it to become economically backward and be susceptible to communist revolution.

oh and japanese and south korean products are not made in China. for example, korean cell phones. all the core parts are made in south korea and china just assembles everything together.

oh and japanese cars, the engine comes from japan and china just makes the parts. the parts get shipped to japan where they are assembled together.

japan and south korea aren't stupid. they're not going to let the chinese learn their technological secrets.

Exactly.

^hello dummy, haven't you read my posts--tariffs on Chinese goods hurt all asian countries--ever heard of the made in China label on Korean and Japanese goods?

I would say Western European countries (except Germany). You also have to understand South Korea's situation after Korean War. Dirt poor, no westernized history, unlike traditional European powers. We had nada. Totally different circumstances from European countries.

In any case, quickly after Korean War, we became a military dictatorship. Not a democrary until I believe late80s. So how did US shape us, coddle us after the Korean War? I believe Park Jung Hee and the US president weren't even on speaking terms because of Park's human rights abuses.

What you're saying only makes it more clear that without US aid (economic aid, providing an open market and technological aid) SK would have never gotten to this point. NK was actually in a better position development wise after WWII because the Japanese had developed it more so than the South. I believe this was because of natural resources .
Also, from what I've read it seems SK was a semi-democracy before the 80's actually. What ever you think of Yi Sung-man he was the elected President of South Korea. In any event SK was closer to democracy than NK was by a long ways.

^you really have understand Korean history better. To understand why Korea's success now, you should look to the reign of PJH. Korean leaders before and after him were in a word --ineffective. PJH was one of the biggest opposers of democracy BTW. US and Park were at odds to say the least. Park would even try to assasinate pro-democracy activists like Kim Dae Jung. Kim BTW was a US proxy. Also, the reason PJH was assasinated was because he tried to stall democracy.

many of the south koreans who governed south korea were authority figures during japanese colonial rule. they had a wealth of experience in administration. Under Japanese rule, north korea was heavily industrialized but north koreans also resisted the japanese the most. the South koreans were forced to accept japanese rule and even cooperate with it. So no, you guys didn't start off with nada. the japanese introduced modern things like the education system and modern medicine.



yes, south korea was a dictatorship but it wasn't communist. Why do people always equate democracy with wealth? I can think of plenty of democratic states in the world that are piss poor. And I can think of a few totalitaran states that are doing quite well economically.

Just because your Park Jung Hee and the US president weren't on speaking terms doesn't mean the US wasn't supporting south korea. The two countries were still close allies even if the two leaders could not get along. You're saying that just because the leaders of two countries are not on good terms, all the relations between the two countries are cut off? Thats ridiculous. IF that was the case, China and US relations would be non-existent with someone like Bush jr. in power.

Look, its pretty much common sense and historical fact that the US played a major role in propping up the south korean economy. I'm not saying the koreans shouldn't be proud of it. But it couldn't have all been done without the US providing the foundations for economic success as well as favorable economic policies.

You are contradicting yourself, first you are saying the u.s could act at several places at once and then you say it was impossible? make up your mind.


When did I ever say that Bush wants to harm south korea? Out of whos @$$ did you pull that? Bush wants north korea out of the way, no? I also want that, but that doesnt seem possible without involving south korea in a full scale war, in that case I dont want war. America didnt attack NK for all that time because of the fu-king USSR ok? The wishes of the allies never determine U.S policy. Clinton planned a war on NK, and it nearly happened, so dont gimme that bs that U.S care about SK.



Yea anti americanism exists everywhere, even in america. But after Bush it just sky rocketed everywhere. I was suporting all of americas actions, even vietnam. Even Bush attacking afghanistan, but after Iraq I dont trust U.S policies anymore.By european sources I meant newspapaers such a reuters or whatever. Hey, just look at the New york times, or the herald tribune and they will tell you its Bush's fault north korea is acting that way.



No $hit! when did I ever deny that?

It seems like you dont understand my point so I will make it simple for you to cut this arguement short:

SK: hey nk chill, lets be friends,I will help u out
NK:Ok....but U.S is your friend and hes my enemy so im scared of you
U.S(Clinton): dont worry, if you behave we will ease up to you as well
NK: allright.....i guess
U.S(BUSH): Hey! you fu-king evil prick ill kill you!
Nk: wtf? I hate you guys!! ill keep on doing my money laundring, my drug trafficking and keep building nukes!
SK: hey chill
NK: dont tell me to chill ill test launch my nukes b!tch!
U.S(BUSH): Hey, iraq, afghanistan, iran, hey arabs! fu-k you b!tches! you are evil!
NK: ait, bush made more enemies now I can do whatever I want(launches nuke test)

capiche? bush created a reverse effect of what would have lead to the collapse of NK

its bush's fault nk is going crazy right now

@Blue

DUH. It was North Korea who benefited from Japanese rule. South Korea did start with nada.

US was NOT supporting PJH cos he suppressed democracy--in fact they funded Kim Dae Jung and his pro-democracy movement to get PJH out of power.

As I've said leaders before and after PJH were downright awful, including Sygman Rhee, the real American puppet. Rhee did nothing for Korea. Korea could have just as well fallen to the wayside were it not for PJH's policies. I think it is luck in strong Korean leadership more than anything else that brought Korea to where it is.

the north koreans benefitted from japanese industry but south korea benefitted from japanese administration. during colonial rule, many south koreans collaborated with the japanese to rule korea and so learned many valuable lessons in ruling a country in an orderly fashion.

as for economically, you are that confident to say that without US support at all, south korea would still have been able to accomplish what it has today? thats a very bold claim that most americans would disagree with.

i am not trying to take away south korean accomplishments but I believe the US played a pivotal role in setting the conditions and foundations for south korean success economically.

i do not know much about all those political infighting that occured in south korea. however, even if south korea was politically in turmoil, the south korean economy was continuously making progress as no matter how totalitarian south korea was during the cold war years, it always had a free or at least semi-free market economy based on capitalism.

^also whatever was "benefitted" from Japanese was destroyed in the Korean War.

however, he did make a valid point by saying that the knowledge basis was their among koreans due to japanese colonial rule.

material things are unimporant. its knowledge and experience that matters. you could say much of japan was destroyed in WW2 as well but many of their brightest ppl survived and were available to rebuild japan. same with germany. most of germany was destroyed as well but they rebuilt themselves because many of their brightest ppl survived.

you are only looking at the material things. things like buildings, trains, factories and whatever are just material things that can be rebuilt. the hard part is the knowledge and experience. thats why education is the most valuable.

south korea may have been devastated by the korean war but the colonial administrators that ran korea under japanese rule had the knowledge and experience in running a modern country. and koreans in the north who worked in the japanese factories had experience in industrialization.

im not trying to insult the koreans here. japanese manchuria in china experienced the same thing. the japanese built many factories, railroads and schools there. after the communist ruled over china, the manchuria region was very useful to the rest of china because they were the most modern.

^many Koreans would disagree as they think Japanese took more away than gave to the Korean people.

oh i agree. they did. the japanese were imperialists, pure and simple. however, since the japanese were beaten and kicked out of korea, the koreans were able to reclaim their country and build it on their own terms in addition to having some valuable experienced learnt under japanese rule.

^Dunno. Koreans hated Japanese. They expunged anything to do with Japan and its influences after they were liberated.

yeh they expunged japanese language and culture and things like that but skills such as administration and other things were kept. these things are general skills that aren't specifically japanese.

i dont really think you are understanding my point here. im not saying the japanese were good people. they were brutal imperialists. however, they were also asia's most modern nation. their practices were involuntarily introduced to korea and china when they took over. many chinese and koreans learned new methods of governing and were basically introduced to the modern world under japanese rule. before that, they had little experience with anything modern and were still stuck in fuedalism.

^I get your point but I don't know that Japan that I would credit with all that. As you say, they are basic skills that could have been acquired without Japanese rule.

Also, believe me when I say South Korea did start out nada. I believe about 99% of SK was agricultural even after Japanese rule. All of the industry was centered in North Korea. By the end of the Korean War, North Koreans thought that South Korea would fail and laughed at us because we got the bad end of the deal when land was divided.

korea had been under japanese rule from 1910 - 1945. thats 35 years of accumulated experience in running a country. even though the japanese ruled the country with an iron fist, much of the day to day matters were done by koreans under japanese supervision. the experience in running a semi-modern country is not something you can just build from scratch suddenly.

yeh the industry was in the north i agree. but whats important is changing people's minds. the mind is the most important thing. the southern koreans changed under japanese rule. they may have suffered but they mentally changed as well. they became more educated, more affluent in the ways of the modern world and those are things that can't be taken away.

the north koreans were more resistant to japanese rule. most of the anti-japanese fighters were north koreans who escaped to china. kim il sung was one of them. after the korean war, many in the north made fun of south koreans for being japanese sympathasizers since they felt much of the ppl in power in south korea were former administrators during japanese colonial period.