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Astromantic
IPB Image

I got that from the Malaysian tourism site, if you think I'm making this up then check this out : http://www.tourism.gov.my/en/theme_culture/default.asp

I thought wayang kulit is Indonesian, it came from Java and Java is a freaking long way to Malaysia. I fu-king don't get you guys... Taking culture and land from another country. What, haven't you got one yourself? Aren't you satisfied with the whole Malay, Chinese and Indian culture diversity? I've also discovered some of our (note: INDONESIAN's) dances and costumes were being taken by Malaysians and I saw it with my own eyes in the ASEAN cultural show here in the Netherlands, the Malaysians danced with Acehnese costume.
Centurion
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 28 2006, 01:04 AM) [snapback]2431787[/snapback]

IPB Image

I got that from the Malaysian tourism site, if you think I'm making this up then check this out : http://www.tourism.gov.my/en/theme_culture/default.asp

I thought wayang kulit is Indonesian, it came from Java and Java is a freaking long way to Malaysia. I fu-king don't get you guys... Taking culture and land from another country. What, haven't you got one yourself? Aren't you satisfied with the whole Malay, Chinese and Indian culture diversity? I've also discovered some of our (note: INDONESIAN's) dances and costumes were being taken by Malaysians and I saw it with my own eyes in the ASEAN cultural show here in the Netherlands, the Malaysians danced with Acehnese costume.


Does the fact that dian xin originates from China, make the Dim Sum in Hong Kong any less Hong Kong style?

Should the fact that uramaki (the inside out sushi) becoming popular in Southern California and thus re-Christened "California Roll" ban Japanese people from embracing the American adoption now as "Kashu-maki"?

You are probably annoyed because you look at things from a purist's point of view.
But assuredly, there is a Malay wayang kulit. And Malays do wear costumes other than a tudung. These may not be exclusively Malay. Other cultures may have such pretty artistic treasures too. Because the Malay and the Indonesians share a common history.
Since when has a Malay person ever claimed that Indonesians are VERY UNLIKE THEM or vice versa?

The real tragedy is that the Malays themselves have killed off so much of their own culture because of the purist interpretation of Islam. The art of wayang kulit Malaysia has few custodians these days as a result of a combined wave of Arab-philia and modernism.

Regards
tangawizi
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 28 2006, 09:04 AM) [snapback]2431787[/snapback]

I thought wayang kulit is Indonesian, it came from Java and Java is a freaking long way to Malaysia. I fu-king don't get you guys... Taking culture and land from another country. What, haven't you got one yourself?


Did u know that the UNESCO designated Wayang Kulit as a Masterpiece of Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity?

The wayang may be an Indonesian word for theater, but the puppets are based on mythological figures from the Indian epics such as the Mahabharata and the Ramayana.

If you wanna take an issue with Malaysians for copying the wayang kulit, the Indians might as well knock your Indonesian head as well for copying their mythologies! embarassedlaugh.gif embarassedlaugh.gif
tangawizi
QUOTE(Centurion @ Oct 28 2006, 09:51 AM) [snapback]2431859[/snapback]

The real tragedy is that the Malays themselves have killed off so much of their own culture because of the purist interpretation of Islam. The art of wayang kulit Malaysia has few custodians these days as a result of a combined wave of Arab-philia and modernism.

Regards


That observation is very true amongst my friends too.. that there is increasing conflict between fundamentalist interpretations of Islam and traditional Malay culture. Muslim practices should enrich the traditional Malay culture and traditions, but in the last few decades, because of political ascendency of the Iranian revolution, the idea that Islam can supplant the state as a governing system, there seems to be a creeping Arabization going on with our youths not just in Southeast Asia but in South Asia too (Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc..).

I am reading that elderly Malays are asking the state to preserve such cultural practices like the Wayang Kulit or Mak Yong dances. But the youths are increasingly looking to Middle Eastern Islamic culture for identity.

I notice when I was home that more young men are starting to wear turbans and grow beards. Arab words have replaced Malay words, like for example for prayer, salat, replaced the Malay word, sembahyang, which literally means "offer homage to the primal ancestor. Old heritage like the Wayang Kulit and the Mak Yong dance are banned or forced to perform in secret. I hear this complain from older folks, not just Malay muslims but peranakans as well.

The Older generation of folks are worried about the loss of these traditional arts and myths and asked why it is now fashionable to ban these cultural practices and adopt a foreign dress and habits and speech patterns from the Arabs.

In the past, the tudung was worn mainly by young girls, but now the older women (mothers) are also following suit to put on the tudung with their young daughters.

The latest thing arabic fashion I heard is that of a 'chaperone'. Now not only any encounters between the sexes must have a chaperone, it's beginning to be the fashion amongst certain asian muslim families that a male relative must travel with females just like the rule for women to travel in Saudi Arabia.

It is alarming that there is some loss of cultural compass. We ought to look into this politicization of our cultures and traditions and realize what is happening before it's too late. sure.gif

forrestcat
We do have an academy that teaches Malaysian Arts.It's even funded by our government.

http://www.ask.edu.my/BI/index.asp

Wayang Kulit course

http://www.ask.edu.my/BI/ak_course_dn_dtl.asp#04

kelantanese
wayang kulit used to be played in kelantan... where hundred years ago kelantan have to many kings that had their own kingdom, some from champa some from majapahit some from who knows till one of the king long yunus( i think from pattani ) conquer all the districts and become one state kelantan. maybe some district that under majapahit king that started to play wayang kulit in kelantan
GluTTony
this Kelanten one looks kinda....... umm what to say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlcDdOCKM58...ted&search=

Gak ada komen deh icon_smile.gif
Centurion
forrestcat,
Good job on finding the courses on Malay traditional arts! I had no idea these existed.
Do you know how popular is the course intake?

p.s. why Astromantic dah bisu? Tak de counter, tak de apology. Only blast opinion then cabut lari? laugh.gif

Astromantic
^
Actually I couldn't go online for the whole day. Maybe you're right, maybe Malaysia also has its own wayang kulit and other cultural stuff that we also have but why did this organization thing made some of them a patent of Malaysia's?

And for tangawizi, yes, the wayang kulits are based on the Indian epics but the puppets are our own originality and we did not copy their mythologies, they influenced it to us and it became a way of our lives too.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 28 2006, 01:35 PM) [snapback]2432746[/snapback]

^
Actually I couldn't go online for the whole day. Maybe you're right, maybe Malaysia also has its own wayang kulit and other cultural stuff that we also have but why did this organization thing made some of them a patent of Malaysia's?

And for tangawizi, yes, the wayang kulits are based on the Indian epics but the puppets are our own originality and we did not copy their mythologies, they influenced it to us and it became a way of our lives too.

My understanding is that the puppets they use in Indonesia and Malaysia are styled differently.
triplex
QUOTE(Centurion @ Oct 28 2006, 04:51 PM) [snapback]2431859[/snapback]

Does the fact that dian xin originates from China, make the Dim Sum in Hong Kong any less Hong Kong style?

Should the fact that uramaki (the inside out sushi) becoming popular in Southern California and thus re-Christened "California Roll" ban Japanese people from embracing the American adoption now as "Kashu-maki"?

You are probably annoyed because you look at things from a purist's point of view.
But assuredly, there is a Malay wayang kulit. And Malays do wear costumes other than a tudung. These may not be exclusively Malay. Other cultures may have such pretty artistic treasures too. Because the Malay and the Indonesians share a common history.
Since when has a Malay person ever claimed that Indonesians are VERY UNLIKE THEM or vice versa?

The real tragedy is that the Malays themselves have killed off so much of their own culture because of the purist interpretation of Islam. The art of wayang kulit Malaysia has few custodians these days as a result of a combined wave of Arab-philia and modernism.

Regards


that's what i wanna say.. is it wrong to claim wayang kulit our heritage, after all malay come from indo?? logically the culture will also brought with us.. as time goes by, the culture passes a few stages of evolution and become distinctive to a place/people.

we don't steal your culture..we just share the same culture..that's all.. is it so hard to understand??
Majapahitans
IMHO it's OK for if Indonesia and Malaysia to share our common heritage.
It shows our sophisticated culture with refined taste of art.
Doesn't imitation is the sincerest admiration...? biggrin.gif
Afterall many ancestors of Malaysian are came from Indonesia, thus bring their cultural heritage.
Selat Malaka aren't that wide even for small boats..... icon_wink.gif

If you trace many Malaysian ancestors, they might be once Indonesian too, Malay from Sumatra; Minangkabau, Jambi, Riau or Palembang. Plus Javanese and Bugis and many more Indonesian.
Paramesvara, the founder of Malaka came from Sumatra.
Negeri Sembilan is dominated by Minangkabau people from West Sumatra.

Honestly as Indonesian I have mixed feeling about this issue
Proud..., but at the same time, sad and concerned.

I'm quite proud that some of our cultural heritage has influence beyond our national border.
But I'm also concerned how Malaysia is "packaging" and "selling" their art and culture just for the sake of tourism. Many of these cultural heritage are originated from Indonesia. Not the other way around.
Malaysia in their tourism promotion often labeled it as "original" Malaysian indigenious art. Without the courtesy to admit or mention it as also belonged to certain people of Indonesia.

Indonesia should do their homework on public relations in tourism to create the correct image that certain art and culture are Indonesian origin. Develop it and package it so Malaysia can not beat us in this cultural image development.

At least in Indonesia we have courtesy to mention the origin of each respected arts. It's well known for Indonesia that the art of Keris, Batik, and Wayang are Javanese origin, Satay from Madura. Even the variant also mentioned, like Batik Pekalongan, Batik Solo, etc.
About Wayang, the story maybe based on Indian mythology, but actually the art of puppetry is far older than Indian influence in Indonesia, during Neolithic period the native Indonesian already developed art of puppetry. That's why we have Semar and Punakawans (unknown in Indian mythology) as integral part of Wayang art. Semar is strongly suggested as a native pre-Indianized nature god.

Then again it's natural to influencing or being influenced in this archipelagic water continent.
Malaysia and Indonesia is the present political entity. The boundary is draw by British and Dutch......
In Srivijaya, Majapahit, Malacca, and Riau-Johor Melayu Sultanates, this border stretching along Malacca strait doesn't exist.
Astromantic
I just want to know how wayangs in Java can go to Malaysia which is a totally different kingdom back then (AFAIK).
tangawizi
I think the dalungs and their gamelan orchestras were a travelling troupe, and they went around the Indonesian and Malay Kingdoms whenever the sultans and elite noble families invited them to come and entertain the masses. That's how they became a beloved form of art and entertaiinment for the Malay kingdoms as well. What do u think of my theory?

Imagine how boring life would have been in the sultan's palaces and the towns and villages without such epic tales and oral histories being played out by these folks?

it's a shame we have lost communal entertainment. It sucks to be watching crap on TV in the solitude of your living room sofa.
rasibiduk
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 29 2006, 10:42 AM) [snapback]2435093[/snapback]

I just want to know how wayangs in Java can go to Malaysia which is a totally different kingdom back then (AFAIK).


Since there are a lot of Javanese immigrants as far back as the late 1800s in Johor, it is just normal to bring a piece of their culture to this foreign shore. Just like the wayang kulit in faraway Suriname. Also, I read somewhere that some sultans ages ago were given a gamelan set from Java as a gift, perhaps with wayang set included too.
agentslayer
They share the same language, ancestry and culture so why are you surprised there are great similarities between the two?
triplex
QUOTE(agentslayer @ Oct 30 2006, 07:29 AM) [snapback]2435705[/snapback]

They share the same language, ancestry and culture so why are you surprised there are great similarities between the two?


that's true but there is still a barrier that separates indo n malay.. most indo think that malaysians steal their culture which we don't.. its kinda weird because we know the fact that most malays came from indo ancestry.. in terms of language, malay and indo are quite different..

we share the same language and culture, its just as simple as that.. beerchug.gif
tangawizi
Its like the split between Chinese and Japanese people? They shared the same ancestral heritage, and even their written language has same derivative. But they find much differences in their mentalities and behavior after so many centuries of separate development.
Protoculture
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 28 2006, 01:04 AM) [snapback]2431787[/snapback]

I thought wayang kulit is Indonesian, it came from Java and Java is a freaking long way to Malaysia. I fu-king don't get you guys... Taking culture and land from another country. What, haven't you got one yourself? Aren't you satisfied with the whole Malay, Chinese and Indian culture diversity? I've also discovered some of our (note: INDONESIAN's) dances and costumes were being taken by Malaysians and I saw it with my own eyes in the ASEAN cultural show here in the Netherlands, the Malaysians danced with Acehnese costume.


Wayang Kulit in Malaysia is native only to the East Coast of Peninsular Malaysia, most notably in Kelantan state & northern Trengganu.

The Malaysian Wayang Kulit shares similarities with South Thai's Malay Wayang Kulit (shadow puppet) given its close geographic location & same ethnicity.

Wayang Kulit in Malaysia served as a satire of everyday local folks lives, & given Muslim profiles had long veered away from Hinduistic elements, such as Mahabrata or Ramayana epics, unlike Indonesian wayang kulit that still embraced some of the storylines.

Malaysian cultures, especially that of Malays are a potpouri. Sure, some of the arts or even folk dances shared similarities & origin, but both Malaysia & Indonesia shared common history, ethnicities, cultures, languages, religion & so forth. So both countries have rights to claim ownership to the same art.

To say Wayang Kulit as an exclusive Indonesian art is foolhardy, as much as if Malaysia to claim Kuda Kepang as exclusively Malaysian identity.

QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 29 2006, 10:42 AM) [snapback]2435093[/snapback]

I just want to know how wayangs in Java can go to Malaysia which is a totally different kingdom back then (AFAIK).


As I said above, Malaysian Wayang Kulit shared commonality with Southern Thai's shadow puppet shows (wayang kulit too, Thai version).

In fact, most Wayang Kulit characters used in Kelantan were made in South Thailand, & greatly prized.

QUOTE
Since there are a lot of Javanese immigrants as far back as the late 1800s in Johor, it is just normal to bring a piece of their culture to this foreign shore. Just like the wayang kulit in faraway Suriname.


Malaysian Wayang Kulit did not originated from Java. Instead, it shared commonality with Southern Thai's Wayang Kulit.

The only Javanese art visible in Johor culture due to Javanese immigrants in those late 1800s would be Kuda Kepang that has been recognised as part of Johor culture itself & need to be preserved.

Malaysian Wayang Kulit info from allmalaysia.info site<note: Only Wayang Kulit Siam (Siam means Thai) & Wayang Gedek (by Malaysian Thais) are still existed in Malaysia>

QUOTE
WAYANG KULIT

A spellbinding medium for storytelling, the Wayang Kulit is a traditional theatre form that brings together the playfulness of a puppet show, and the elusive quality and charming simplicity of a shadow play.

Its origin remains a mystery, though it appears to have a strong Javanese and Hindu influence. Today, it is spread out, in various forms and guises, across Asia - from Turkey and China to Indonesia and of course, Malaysia.

Here, it is most popular in the East Coast of Peninsular Malaysia, particularly in Kelantan, the heartland of Wayang Kulit, where it took root more than 250 years ago. Today, however, urbanisation and modern entertainment have led to a decline in its popularity.

There used to be four main varieties of the form in this country: the Wayang Kulit Siam of Kelantan; the Wayang Gedek, performed by the Thai communities of Kedah and Perlis; the Wayang Kulit Jawa, performed by the Javanese communities in Selangor and Johor; and the Wayang Kulit Melayu, performed by the Javanese communities of Terengganu. Today, only the first two are performed.

All of the varieties of this unique theatre form employ the principle of light and shadow to bring to life its characters, depicted by intricately carved puppets. The flat two-dimensional puppets are carved, then painted, by hand out of cow or buffalo hide.

Each puppet, a stylised exaggeration of the human shape, is given a distinctive appearance and not unlike its string puppet cousins, has jointed "arms". There may be as many as 40 puppet characters, all with different traits and mannerisms, in a performance.

One man is responsible for breathing life into this array of characters: the master puppeteer and storyteller known as the Tok Dalang.

The task of the Tok Dalang requires immense skill and endurance, for not only does he control the movements of the puppets, he also has to provide each one with a distinguishable voice, and at times, to sing, all while "conducting" the accompanying traditional music ensemble by tapping a rattle (known as the kechrek) with his feet.

During a typical performance, which can last several few hours, the Tok Dalang sits behind a semi-transparent white cloth which acts as a screen. The puppet figures are silhouetted onto the screen with an oil lamp as the light source.

The stories of the wayang kulit are traditionally based on the Hindu epics of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Usually, the Tok Dalang begins by introducing the main characters; first the puppet storyteller, followed by Maharaja Wana (Rawana), Sri Rama (Rama), Siti Dewa (Sita), the Laksamana and the court jesters, Pak Dogol and Wak Long.

Then he tells the story by moderating his voice, and controlling the varied movements, to suit each and every character. For instance, the gruff-voiced demon king Maharaja Wana moves erratically and aggressively, while the court jesters scratch their heads and speak in shrill voices.

The shadow play is invariably accompanied by a gamelan orchestra, one that consists of about 10 to 30 musicians.

Traditionally, the Wayang Kulit is staged during religious festivals and important occasions, such as weddings, births and circumcision. Primarily, it was taken as an entertainment medium. However, it also served to impart moral values, as well as to pass down folklore and historical tales.

Like many other art forms in Malaysia, it was believed to have strong ties to the spirit world. It used to be customary to make food offerings to the spirits during and after a performance, but this practice is now frowned upon.

In fact, in 1990, when the conservative political party Parti SeIslam Malaysia (PAS) came into power in Kelantan, the staging of Wayang Kulit was prohibited altogether, for its un-Islamic elements.

However, the practitioners of this dying art form have adapted, ensuring its continuous survival. Today, a new brand of Wayang Kulit has emerged. Instead of the traditional tale of Hikayat Sri Rama - the Malay adaptation of the Hindu epic Ramayana - the stories now are based on local folklore, history, popular comedies, current issues and secular tales.

Even the traditional forms of the puppets have evolved. The new puppets can take up any role unlike the original puppets which are fixed characters. Also, modern elements such as buildings and cars have been incorporated.

To keep up with the times, today's Tok Dalangs do not only use the Kelantanese dialect but also mainstream Bahasa Malaysia, a few English words, the occasional Bollywood song, and even familiar tunes from TV serials to spice up their performance. The best thing is they always improvise as they perform, so audiences don't get a fixed dialogue or narration with every show.

All their efforts have not gone to waste. The "modernisation" of the Wayang Kulit has since changed the minds of the Kelantan State Government which has since lifted the ban. The art form is slowly picking up again but whether it would achieve the same kind of recognition as in days gone by remains to be seen.

rasibiduk
^

yes, the Kelantanese style Wayang Kulit is closer in style to the Thai version, but that picture in question is indeed a Javanese wayang.
Protoculture
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Oct 30 2006, 12:43 AM) [snapback]2436885[/snapback]

^

yes, the Kelantanese style Wayang Kulit is closer in style to the Thai version, but that picture in question is indeed a Javanese wayang.


As local expertise to make wayang kulit puppet in Malaysia had practically died out, most wayang kulit puppets were bought from Thailand. However, some local Tok Dalang also went to Java to look for wayang puppet too .... although much rare.
agentslayer
QUOTE
Its like the split between Chinese and Japanese people? They shared the same ancestral heritage, and even their written language has same derivative. But they find much differences in their mentalities and behavior after so many centuries of separate development.


The relationship between Indonesia and Malaysia is nowhere near as bad as those two. And the separation wasn't that long ago either. The Philippines and Malaysia or Indonesia, I can understand since our country is predominantly Christian, but I have trouble with comprehending the characterization that conflict between the two Muslims nations is so bad.
Protoculture
QUOTE(agentslayer @ Oct 30 2006, 01:45 AM) [snapback]2437005[/snapback]

The relationship between Indonesia and Malaysia is nowhere near as bad as those two. And the separation wasn't that long ago either. The Philippines and Malaysia or Indonesia, I can understand since our country is predominantly Christian, but I have trouble with comprehending the characterization that conflict between the two Muslims nations is so bad.


Actually, relationship between Malaysia & Indonesia is not really bad. Its just that, once in a while, we like to argue when something interesting cropped up. laugh.gif
tangawizi
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Oct 30 2006, 08:43 AM) [snapback]2436885[/snapback]

^

yes, the Kelantanese style Wayang Kulit is closer in style to the Thai version, but that picture in question is indeed a Javanese wayang.



Can anyone post pictures of Wayang Kulit Siam, and Malay and Javanese versions to better see the differences or similarities please?? Macasih! biggthumpup.gif
Betongan
The Javanese just make up the stories. The fancies all the Malay culture was from them. Wake up!!!. There are another Malay culture except Javanese. Infact from what I remember, wayang kulit siam much more closer in Thai version than Javanese version. Maybe Thai copy from us. Who know???
Go to the website below and you can site "Pok Dogol" figure in Wayang Kulit Siam Kelantan. I use to watch wayang kulit when i was kid and its very interesting stuff to watch..
http://www.journeymalaysia.com/MC_kotabahru1.htm
samheisfl
Do you guys know that one of the top Tok Dalang in Malaysia is a chinese..? icon_redface.gif
Betongan
QUOTE(samheisfl @ Nov 1 2006, 12:41 AM) [snapback]2441965[/snapback]

Do you guys know that one of the top Tok Dalang in Malaysia is a chinese..? icon_redface.gif

No. Who?? Long time since my last time seeing wayang kulit.
samheisfl
QUOTE(Betongan @ Nov 1 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]2441973[/snapback]

No. Who?? Long time since my last time seeing wayang kulit.


Forgot his name.. i've read an article about him somewhere last month in NST.. i'll try to find out bout' it.. icon_smile.gif
rasibiduk
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Oct 31 2006, 12:35 AM) [snapback]2439543[/snapback]

Can anyone post pictures of Wayang Kulit Siam, and Malay and Javanese versions to better see the differences or similarities please?? Macasih! biggthumpup.gif


Even better- Wayangs in youtube!

Kelantan

Thai

Bali

Java

Sunda (this one is not kulit/leather but golek/wood)
tangawizi
The kelantanese one was quite funny! It's in Kelantanese, but the dalang voice is so good, u can understand the storyline..

The Thai one's kinda wierd. I don't know if its a movie or wayang..

I lurve the Bali and Javanese music! It's amazingly beautiful!!! I was quite surprised to find that the bali wayangs are performed in English language for the benefit of tourists no doubt! That's a real innovation, but I think it's nicer to have thte words spoken in Jawi and with simultaneous translation below the wayang..like in the italian operas..that would retain the beauty of the language and performance.

The javanese wayang is hilarious! It features a bicycle! biggrin.gif

The Sundanese wayang is psychedelic man... looks like a wayang in a discotheque!

Thanks rabsiduk! biggthumpup.gif biggthumpup.gif
malaccan
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Oct 28 2006, 06:04 AM) [snapback]2431787[/snapback]

IPB Image

I got that from the Malaysian tourism site, if you think I'm making this up then check this out : http://www.tourism.gov.my/en/theme_culture/default.asp

I thought wayang kulit is Indonesian, it came from Java and Java is a freaking long way to Malaysia. I fu-king don't get you guys... Taking culture and land from another country. What, haven't you got one yourself? Aren't you satisfied with the whole Malay, Chinese and Indian culture diversity? I've also discovered some of our (note: INDONESIAN's) dances and costumes were being taken by Malaysians and I saw it with my own eyes in the ASEAN cultural show here in the Netherlands, the Malaysians danced with Acehnese costume.

Minta maaf ya Astromantic jika ada perasaan kurang senang hati dalam diri saudara. Hakikatnya, kita memang asalnya dari rumpun yang sama. I don't have Javanese blood in me, asal keturunan saya dari Melaka. Namun saya memang punya darah Minangkabau dari sebelah ayah saya. We celebrate our Minang heritage. During my sister's wedding, we organised a performance of Dinding Barinding for the guests, which included our very multicultural Malaysian friends and distant relatives from Sumatera.
Betong
QUOTE(malaccan @ Nov 3 2006, 02:22 AM) [snapback]2447554[/snapback]

Minta maaf ya Astromantic jika ada perasaan kurang senang hati dalam diri saudara. Hakikatnya, kita memang asalnya dari rumpun yang sama. I don't have Javanese blood in me, asal keturunan saya dari Melaka. Namun saya memang punya darah Minangkabau dari sebelah ayah saya. We celebrate our Minang heritage. During my sister's wedding, we organised a performance of Dinding Barinding for the guests, which included our very multicultural Malaysian friends and distant relatives from Sumatera.

It Malay culture not Indons culture la Pak Astromantica. Whoever Malay can use it when he feel fit. Lantak dia la kalau nak guna. Ko bukan tahu pun aku Minang, Jawa, Bugis, Siak atau etnik apapun. Lantak aku la weiii. Dengki plak dia.
Majapahitans
That's OK.....
@ Astro...., don't get pissed of by this "tiny" cultural disputes. icon_wink.gif

Anyway...., people already know that the art of Wayang is blossomming, thriving, and vividly alive in Indonesian folk's tradition. People here still perform Wayang for celebrations like Khitanan (circumcision ceremony), Wedding, sacred ceremony (like Balinese did) or any special occasions. Famous Dalang (wayang puppet master) can make good living from this art. We also aired this Wayang performance frequently in our national TVs. Even considerable amout of our youths still recognize several wayang character. In my case...., I luv it...... kiss.gif

The fact is...., indeed Malaysia also had Wayang traditions. Like Wayang Kelantan. And it's good.
Weather it was influenced by Javan or Siam's style, they have it and we must respect it.
But their real wayang folk's traditions was not as lively as ours I guess.

Malaysian tourism board apparently try soo hard to awaken and revive the dying (maybe already dead....) Wayang tradition in Malaysia.
And then package it for tourism sake and "cultural image" of Malaysia. Sadly it seems that even native Malaysian doesn't appreciate their own tradition...... icon_sad.gif

Too strong puritant Islamic influence that banned representation of human and living creature imagery maybe.....?
Here, Wayang also not developed well in strong Islamic incluenced regions like Aceh or Minangkabau.....
Also in areas formerly not influenced by Hindu-Buddhist traditions; like Nias, Batak lands, Molluccas, Minahasa, Flores, interior parts of Borneo, and Papua.
But then again the living Wayang traditions in Indonesia is far lively and vigorous than Malaysia.

Astro..., you should pity them...., not hate or even envy them..... icon_wink.gif
Astromantic
QUOTE(malaccan @ Nov 3 2006, 08:22 AM) [snapback]2447554[/snapback]

Minta maaf ya Astromantic jika ada perasaan kurang senang hati dalam diri saudara. Hakikatnya, kita memang asalnya dari rumpun yang sama. I don't have Javanese blood in me, asal keturunan saya dari Melaka. Namun saya memang punya darah Minangkabau dari sebelah ayah saya. We celebrate our Minang heritage. During my sister's wedding, we organised a performance of Dinding Barinding for the guests, which included our very multicultural Malaysian friends and distant relatives from Sumatera.


It's cool man, it's my fault anyways because I didn't know that wayang kulit is also practiced in Malaysia.

@ Majapahitans: I think you're right, Malay culture in Malaysia is dying and that's why Indonesians like me don't really know that wayang kulit and all that is practiced in Malaysia. If only there is a brief introduction and definitons of the similarities between Indonesian and Malaysian culture, I wouldn't make this thread.
Betong
QUOTE(Majapahitans @ Nov 4 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]2450930[/snapback]


The fact is...., indeed Malaysia also had Wayang traditions. Like Wayang Kelantan. And it's good.
Weather it was influenced by Javan or Siam's style, they have it and we must respect it.
But their real wayang folk's traditions was not as lively as ours I guess.


I believe Malaysian becoming more sophisticated and modern society so they tend to forget their old cultural heritege. People here in Malaysia feeling more comfortable listen to R&B, Rock and ballad and go to seeing movie in cinema. Wayang Kelantan not lively as your because its only apperiaciate by some people in Kelantan and here in Malaysian. Duds with modern country we have here in Malaysia, maybe we didn't have enough time to practice this wayang and we didn't enough audiance to support tok dalang.
rasibiduk
QUOTE(Betong @ Nov 5 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]2454934[/snapback]

I believe Malaysian becoming more sophisticated and modern society so they tend to forget their old cultural heritege. People here in Malaysia feeling more comfortable listen to R&B, Rock and ballad and go to seeing movie in cinema. Wayang Kelantan not lively as your because its only apperiaciate by some people in Kelantan and here in Malaysian. Duds with modern country we have here in Malaysia, maybe we didn't have enough time to practice this wayang and we didn't enough audiance to support tok dalang.


so do you think this is a positive thing?
Betong
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Nov 5 2006, 08:45 PM) [snapback]2454969[/snapback]

so do you think this is a positive thing?

No. But we just can't keep this cultural forever. Maybe we must look forward. Hope for better future for Malaysia
rasibiduk
QUOTE(Betong @ Nov 5 2006, 09:12 PM) [snapback]2455053[/snapback]

No. But we just can't keep this cultural forever. Maybe we must look forward. Hope for better future for Malaysia


So I see, traditional culture = backward culture, thus must be eradicated. Rock and Ballad is the future of Malaysia.
Astromantic
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Nov 6 2006, 08:11 AM) [snapback]2456156[/snapback]

So I see, traditional culture = backward culture, thus must be eradicated. Rock and Ballad is the future of Malaysia.


Totally! rockon.gif Haha... So his interpretation of 'future' is western lifestyle huh?
Betong
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Nov 6 2006, 02:11 AM) [snapback]2456156[/snapback]

So I see, traditional culture = backward culture, thus must be eradicated. Rock and Ballad is the future of Malaysia.

it was same as Indonesian. Your culture survive not because Indonesian people practice it but because it was tourist attraction.
Astromantic
What's the same thing? I think it's actually NOT the same because we managed to practice the culture until now and we do practice it, you just don't know about it.
Betong
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Nov 6 2006, 02:38 AM) [snapback]2456225[/snapback]

What's the same thing? I think it's actually NOT the same because we managed to practice the culture until now and we do practice it, you just don't know about it.

Ok, maybe I wrong about that ceremonial reason.
rasibiduk
QUOTE(Betong @ Nov 6 2006, 02:32 AM) [snapback]2456215[/snapback]

it was same as Indonesian. Your culture survive not because Indonesian people practice it but because it was tourist attraction.


now this is the biggest assumption of all- because you are wrong, 100%. Our culture is not being neglected, nor displayed just for the sake of tourism. In fact it is very much the opposite, these art forms are not only still being actively practiced in our societies - just go to the court of Jogja! to the temples of Bali! the wayang-village of Jelekong! the funeral in Toraja or to any Indonesian weddings- but we also have a serious effort in preserving and developing them.

We have high school-level Arts schools (SMKI) and dozens of university-level Arts Institute (STSI) all over Indonesia to do just that, beside introducing them the more modern art forms. This is only in the formal level, we haven't counted the hundreds, if not thousands, sanggars (informal dance groups), wayang groups, numerous groups of different forms of traditional theatres: Bangsawan, Ketoprak, Langendriyan, Lenong, Gending Karesmen, Gambuh. We are just talking about Performing Arts here- not mentioning other forms of traditional arts that Indonesian treasured - and not surprisingly, copied by her neighbors- such as batiks, keris, food, herbal remedies (jamu), etc.
Astromantic
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Nov 6 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]2456365[/snapback]

now this is the biggest assumption of all- because you are wrong, 100%. Our culture is not being neglected, nor displayed just for the sake of tourism. In fact it is very much the opposite, these art forms are not only still being actively practiced in our societies - just go to the court of Jogja! to the temples of Bali! the wayang-village of Jelekong! the funeral in Toraja or to any Indonesian weddings- but we also have a serious effort in preserving and developing them.

We have high school-level Arts schools (SMKI) and dozens of university-level Arts Institute (STSI) all over Indonesia to do just that, beside introducing them the more modern art forms. This is only in the formal level, we haven't counted the hundreds, if not thousands, sanggars (informal dance groups), wayang groups, numerous groups of different forms of traditional theatres: Bangsawan, Ketoprak, Langendriyan, Lenong, Gending Karesmen, Gambuh. We are just talking about Performing Arts here- not mentioning other forms of traditional arts that Indonesian treasured - and not surprisingly, copied by her neighbors- such as batiks, keris, food, herbal remedies (jamu), etc.


Now listen to that all you Malaysian people!!
Centurion
QUOTE(Betong @ Nov 5 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]2454934[/snapback]

I believe Malaysian becoming more sophisticated and modern society so they tend to forget their old cultural heritege. People here in Malaysia feeling more comfortable listen to R&B, Rock and ballad and go to seeing movie in cinema. Wayang Kelantan not lively as your because its only apperiaciate by some people in Kelantan and here in Malaysian. Duds with modern country we have here in Malaysia, maybe we didn't have enough time to practice this wayang and we didn't enough audiance to support tok dalang.


How simple to quickly blame modernity and economic progress for the loss of Malay ancestral legacies.
You forgot to mention the role that conservative Islamism plays in destroying the treasures of the Malay culture.

Read the article:
Bit of Malay Culture Is Now Vanishing Under Muslim Rules

Centurion
QUOTE(Astromantic @ Nov 6 2006, 04:03 AM) [snapback]2456378[/snapback]

Now listen to that all you Malaysian people!!


There is no need to shout at us. We're not all that uninformed. lol. Well, at least we try not to be

I understand that for the movie "Puteri Gunung Ledang", lead Msian actress Tiara Jacquelina travelled to Mangkunagaran Palace in Solo, Java, to prepare herself for her role as a Javanese princess.
So those of us who know our stuff actually have proper respect for Indonesia as a custodian of the arts.
Betong
QUOTE(rasibiduk @ Nov 6 2006, 03:53 AM) [snapback]2456365[/snapback]

now this is the biggest assumption of all- because you are wrong, 100%. Our culture is not being neglected, nor displayed just for the sake of tourism. In fact it is very much the opposite, these art forms are not only still being actively practiced in our societies - just go to the court of Jogja! to the temples of Bali! the wayang-village of Jelekong! the funeral in Toraja or to any Indonesian weddings- but we also have a serious effort in preserving and developing them.

We have high school-level Arts schools (SMKI) and dozens of university-level Arts Institute (STSI) all over Indonesia to do just that, beside introducing them the more modern art forms. This is only in the formal level, we haven't counted the hundreds, if not thousands, sanggars (informal dance groups), wayang groups, numerous groups of different forms of traditional theatres: Bangsawan, Ketoprak, Langendriyan, Lenong, Gending Karesmen, Gambuh. We are just talking about Performing Arts here- not mentioning other forms of traditional arts that Indonesian treasured - and not surprisingly, copied by her neighbors- such as batiks, keris, food, herbal remedies (jamu), etc.

Ok I'm sorry. I just ever been at Jakarta when people listen to rock and dangdut more than others.
Your last word was wrong man. Since we also have Javanese, Melayu or anything that Indonesian have, you can't said that they copied your tradition. They deserved to practice it because "itu tok nenek mereka punya budaya jugak".
rasibiduk
QUOTE(Betong @ Nov 6 2006, 10:46 PM) [snapback]2458518[/snapback]

Ok I'm sorry. I just ever been at Jakarta when people listen to rock and dangdut more than others.
Your last word was wrong man. Since we also have Javanese, Melayu or anything that Indonesian have, you can't said that they copied your tradition. They deserved to practice it because "itu tok nenek mereka punya budaya jugak".


by all means, they should practice what their nenek moyang pass to them- and I'm not saying it is a negative thing to copy a tradition. This process has been going on for centuries and will continue for more. Examples are aplenty: Japanese absorbed Chinese cultures but made it their own (writing system, religion). Indonesia copied Indian cultures in the early first millenium, the Malays now have Arabic names or the Malays 'inspired' by Indonesia to make their own batik (very different design), and also have interesting food like Ice Bandung, or mee Bandung which sounds like it's from my hometown.
nadia_hanim
Good job on finding the courses on Malay traditional arts! I had no idea these existed.
Do you know how popular is the course intake?

of course
tangawizi
QUOTE(Centurion @ Nov 6 2006, 10:18 PM) [snapback]2457304[/snapback]

How simple to quickly blame modernity and economic progress for the loss of Malay ancestral legacies.
You forgot to mention the role that conservative Islamism plays in destroying the treasures of the Malay culture.

Read the article:
Bit of Malay Culture Is Now Vanishing Under Muslim Rules


Good point. That observation that conservative Islamism and arabization was sweeping across converted lands was already observed much earlier on - like 2 decades ago by Nobel Prize novelist VS Naipaul. You can read his observations on Malaysia in his book Beyond Belief.
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