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dalawapo
Ok i am confused. Rajah is an indian title for King etc. And wasnt Rajah Lapu-Lapu a teacher of the Kali Martial art which is said to have originated in india by way of Indonesia?

also i have read that, Rajah Humabon of Cebu (who was Rajah Lapu-Lapu's rival) was said to be son of Sri-Vijaya royalty.

So at this time when magellan sailed and met the visayans in 1521, were the people of Visayas Muslims or Hindu/Buddhists?


were the Luzon and Visayan islanders under indian spears of influence while the Mindanao and Sulu islanders were under the muslim spears of influence?

I read that when Magellan sailed to the philippines in 1521 his men stated that the Visayans did not have a form of writing.

but when the spaniard returned in 1567, they reported the flourishing Indic Baybayin script in the Visayan and Luzon areas only.

and that the Indic writing script is completely absent in Mindanao island.

so would that mean the Visayans were native chiefs but then about 50 years later they had adopted indian culture? becausewhy would the visayans be writing using an indic script if they were muslims, shouldn't the be using arabic script?

I also read that Rajah Sulieman of Manila of 1571 was a Muslim...

so how is that?

haha this is confusing me ARRRGHh who knows..... who knows....... shrug.gif
flipcombatmedic
i thought it was datu lapu-lapu from mactan, which is somewhere by cebu. he had supposedly killed magellan, who was the person to first cross the pacific, ahem first european, who also named pacific, and "discovered" guam and the islas of the philippines. flips consider him teh first of the many flip martyr and heroes. i'd suppose he was muslim, just cuz hindus did not have such a strong hold as in other s.e. asian nations in teh phils, and why else would he kill a white christian interventor, just kidding, but yeah islam came about that smae time in the islands, so it is not surprising he is muslim, if not pagan. also just cuz he is called rajah doesn't mean he's hindu. the mughal empire from india, which is probably what spread islam in our part of teh glove was muslim.
Iron Malayan
He and his men was always depicted as wearing loincloth.I'm not sure if this is just white propaganda.If this was true he could not have been a Hindu let alone a Muslim.I think he was a pagan.
dalawapo
I think he was under the Hindu sphere of influence... and that the visayan and luzon islands were first under hindu sphere of influence, and then the muslim sphere of influence was in sulu/mindanao and then spread north.....

and Iron Malayan, loincloth is not a good agruement to say he was a pagan, it is not sure what they wore, and also when someone adopts the hindu culture, they can still preserve certain aspects of indigenous culture etc. such as when cambodians adopted hindu culture, they did not adop hindu language either..... they retain some aspects of their indgeinous lifes.

here is a website that discusses rajah lapulapu as part of the srivisaya..

QUOTE
History of Eskrima Kali Arnis

By Grandmaster Dionisio A. Cañete


Arnis, the only known traditional Filipino Martial Arts, has its roots deep in the culture and history of the Filipino people. The exact date of its origin, however, remains unclear. Traces of historical evidence reveal that this manly art of self defense involving the use of a single stick, two sticks, a long and a short stick, a dagger, or some other blunt instruments no doubt existed long before the arrival of the first Spanish colonizers in the country. The first known Filipino hero, Lapulapu, was believed to be one of the foremost masters of Arnis, which was known during that time in the native dialect as pangamut. In fact, Lapulapu had vigorously trained and prepared his men for "showdown" fights against his enemies long before his historic battle with Ferdinand Magellan on April 27, 1521, in Mactan Island. It was no surprise then, that when the first circumnavigator of the world tried to subdue the recalcitrant Lapulapu, who refused to come and meet him in Cebu, Magellan and his men were met not with a hail of bullets but with wooden instruments, spears, and bolos. It was ironic that when the smoke of the epic battle cleared, the Spanish conquistadors more "modern" weapons were no match for the crude wooden arms of Lapulapu and his warriors. Magellan lost his life in that battle.



In the book DeLos Delitos, printed in 1800 by Don Baltazar Gonzales in Madrid, Spain, the author tells that it may have been Datu Mangal, the father of Lapulapu, who brought the stickfighting to Mactan Island, and Sri Batugong and his son Sri Bantug Lumay who brought the art to the neighboring island of Sugbu (Cebu). Bantug Lumay was the father of Sri Humabon or Rajah Humabon. Humabon was the chieftain of Sugbu at the time when Magellan arrived in 1521.

The tribes of Lapulapu and Humabon were part of Sri Visayan Empire in the 14th century. After the Empire was defeated by the Maja Pahit Empire of ancient Sumatra and Borneo, the tribes became part of a group who fled and eventually settled in the islands of the Visayas Central Philippines. Another group of those Sri Vasayans, that included the tribes of Datu Puti and Datu Sumakwel, went out and settled in Panay Island. 

Lapulapu, even before his momentous meeting with Magellan, had been training his men because of his bitter rivalry with Rajah Humabon, whom he accused of having grabbed a portion of his father's land, particularly the sea area between the Mactan Island and Cebu. The feud between these two local chieftains contributed significantly to the early development of the "old" Arnis. The showdown between Lapulapu and Humabon, however, was never realized. Rather, it was in the battle of Mactan where the native martial art was put to a real test against the modern weapons of the foreign invaders. The rest is history. 

When Miguel Lopez de Legaspi landed in the Philippines and established the first settlement in 1565, he and his men noted that the Filipinos were a class by themselves in the art of stickfighting and blade or sword fighting. He had his first glimpse of the natives
exceptional skill and ability during his landing in Leyte in 1564 when he was entertained with an Arnis demonstration by the warriors of Chieftain Malitik. Similar demonstrations were
made upon his visits in Limasawa, Camiguin, Cebu and other places. 

Arnis was then the favorite sport of the royalties that every time a demonstration or competition was held, people usually came in droves to watch. Its popularity spanned well up to the Spanish times. However, when the Spaniards gained substantial control of the country it discouraged the practice of Arnis. Fearful of the Filipinos exceptional skill, they imposed a total ban in the practice of the art.  Although the reason given was the unusual long hours spent by the natives in the practice and training, hence, neglecting their work it was obvious the authorities were fearful of the threat to their lives at the hands of the very skillful and well trained people. Hence, the Filipinos put aside their  training devices and
abandoned the practice of Arnis. 

It was not until the 19th century that Arnis began to surface again into popularity among the natives. The rapid growth was attributed to the introduction of the Moro moro plays and dances which became popular among the Filipinos and gave them the opportunity to circumvent the rule which prohibited the display and carrying of bladed weapons. It was believed that the Moro-Moro plays and dances were invented to primarily give the Filipinos
an excuse or a cover to resume the practice and training of Arnis. As a result, the people concentrated in mastering the art known as "oway". Through some kinds of subterfuge behind the disguise of performing stage plays and dances or dance movements, the
Filipinos were able to practice and continue their Arnis training with the use of bladed weapons known as "kali". "Kali" is a type of broad sword still popular among the Filipinos particularly those in the southern part of the country including the Muslim provinces. 

Due to the Spanish influence this Filipino Martial Art came to be known as "Arnis de Mano" - derived from the Spanish word "arnes",  meaning trappings or defensive armor. It also acquired namesakes such as "estokada", "estoque", "fraile", "arnes de mano", or simply "arnis".  Among the tagalogs, it is known as "pananandata", the Pangasinan natives, "kalirongan", the Ilocanos "didya" or "kabaraon", the Ibanags "pagkalikali", the Pampanguenos "sinawali" and the Visayans "Kaliradman" or "pagaradman" , later "esgrima" or "eskrima".

The word "eskrima" is derived from the Spanish word "esgrima" which means "a game between two combatants with the use of blunt instruments". The name of the stick which could either be rattan or a piece of hardwood used in "eskrima" is called either "olisi", "baston" or "garote". The word "eskrima" became popular in the early years of the American regime, when the first Arnis club organized in Cebu City, Central Philippines in 1920, the Labangon Fencing Club used the term in their practice of the art. Although this group was dissolved in later years due to serious political conflicts among it officers. In 1932, Doce Pares Association, with all the well known grandmasters based in Cebu as a nucleus, came into being. This organization in years to come became very popular that its name was almost synonymous with martial art of Arnis and it was to its credit that Arnis was widely practiced as sort of a competitive sport. Its rule on sparring matches had received broad acceptance, that in early 1970, was generally accepted by all the arnis clubs, schools and organizations in the country. In fact, the present tournament rules adopted by the World Eskrima Arnis Federation (WEKAF) had been substantially lifted from this old rules of Doce Pares. The development of the Filipino stickfighting art, more widely known as Arnis or Eskrima, has grown to spectacular proportion, making it today one of the most popular martial arts in the world. Major events held in the Philippines as well as in the USA, England, Australia, Germany and other countries in the world more than confirmed the universal acceptance of Arnis as a popular sporting event.

http://www.docepares.net/ekarnishistory.html
flipcombatmedic
wearing loin cloth does not mean he's not muslim, nor hindu. but the fact that cebu and many major filipino cities and civilizations were hindu and mactan lied next to cebu which was a thriving civ even back then. also the term rajah is used both by traditional pagan flips for datus of high rank and muslims. but seriously flip is been left alone for most of civilizations influence. i mean most flips were traditinally of flip religions of the old, even when the countries all other countries at the time and area were getting influenced by chinese indian and muslim culture. i mean tehre were alot of influence but not as rampant as other major civ.
malaccan
I think Lapu-Lapu is a good example of a Malay hero that all of us can be proud of. I can't remember when I first heard abt Lapu-Lapu but certainly I wanted to be like him for a few weeks or so! Hehe.

Another hero I respect is Jose Rizal. There are so Malays in Malaysia called Rizal-it's a really popular name.
flipcombatmedic
really i didn't know that malaysians look upon us your flip brothers let alone our pride heroes
malaccan
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Jun 15 2004, 05:06 PM)
really i didn't know that malaysians look upon us your flip brothers let alone our pride heroes

Yeah we learned about Rizal in our history lesson. There is a large section on southeast Asia history in general. It's cool!
flipcombatmedic
are you living in malaysia right now. i guess were to self centred back in phils that we didnt notice to learn other peoples within our race and immediate area and history to be included. well that's cool then. are you muslim?
malaccan
LOL! I think I was one of the few peeps in my class who were just that bit more interested in surrounding countries and their histories n culture. a bit of a nerd really.biggrin.gif I was born and brought up in KL but have been in the UK for 7 years now. I went to a govt-run missionary school, but they didn't try to convert us or anything. the syllabus was similar to all other national schools. Yeah, I'm a Muslim bro. I think it's cool how Msia and Philippines can be people of the same ethnicity and be of two supposedly incompatible religions. We can show others how we can live together peacefully, no? beerchug.gif
Eclectic Asian
what about Emilio Aguinaldo???? sure.gif he is also a good filipino hero! :genius:
malaccan
QUOTE (Eclectic Asian @ Jun 15 2004, 07:58 PM)
what about Emilio Aguinaldo???? sure.gif he is also a good filipino hero! :genius:

The name sounds familiar, but no I dunno. What did he do?
flipcombatmedic
about pi and masia having incompatible religion, i think it's not christianity and islam has contrasting or incompatible religion, it's just people, back then and now, had made reliigon political. people had waged war on each other and $hit happpens and now were like oh they're infidels when in truth us chrisitans and jews and muslims pray to teh exact same god in different names. we are evolved from each otehr and have the same almost beliefs, but it's the polictical and historical differences that fu-ked us up. and emilio fyi is the chinese descended flip who led the revolt against spain in 1800s. we consider him the gen and the first president of the rep of phils. but americans had other things in mind so they who put the guy back from his hongkong exile to fight the spanish, were taken away and the govt established were brought down while a territorial govt was set by the us. ther are other flip heroes like mabini, the three priest gomez burgos and zamora, luna, andres bonifacio hes a biggie, and the younger of the del pilars. many more also like tandang sora, and such. another of the older ones is rajah suleiman king of manila, and panday pira his gunner and cannoneer, who supervised the cannons of manila before it was over ran by the spanish who they welcomed hospitably just before.
Ek-ek
Lapu-lapu actual name is said to be Calip Kulapu ??? according to National Historical Institute , They just could not give supporting evidences regarding the true name.

He is said to ba a Muslim!
Visayan1
I thought he was animist?
filipinoy
isnt
rajah = hindu,
sultan = muslim,
datu= native
Badong
[size=5][size=7][font=Comic Sans Ms]

In the first place if we are going to base it on ancient history books, it was Datu Lapu-Lapu and not Rajah. Secondly, most of these books were written not by the natives but by the Kings men - and whatever the King said - that is what they printed. So to be honest - there's really no way of knowing except by guessing.

If I'm going to guess, most likely they were Buddhist, but of the Japanese Buddhist - like the Samurais' Buddhism or the Sumo Buddhists because from illustrations (if these are to be trusted), the loin cloth they wore were like the Japanese.

Islam found in the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia did not come from the middle east but from the Mongols who retreated after the collapse of the Mongol Empire. In other words they are Buddhists that got mixed up with Islam and Hinduism. This is why the Arabs do not treat them as Muslims.

In the Middle East, most specially from the group of Saddam Hussein, Islam is not based on the Koran but on the Arab culture. Because after the death of Sulaiman the Great, to prevent the assasination of the Emperor, they imprisoned all the brothers and sisters of the Emperor. These made them crazy or insane. After the death of the reigning Emperor, the one who took over was already crazy or insane. Since all the writing in the Koran was written under the instructions of this crazy emperor, most of the things they got there somehow does not make sense. So they decided that the Koran can not be the basis of Islam. They decided to make Arab culture as the basis of Islam because the big Holy Rock of Islam is in Jeddah, which is in Saudi Arabia.
bisaya
based on the local oral history and traditions, the bisayans believed not in an allah but in gods that is similar to those found in bali, indonesia. when the spaniards came to the visayan islands they found the natives worshipping anitos.

flipcombatmedic: based on studies from scholars, they found that allah was an arabian moon god. which also has its root in ancient hindu religion. thus the ritual you see sorrounding a muslim hajj is very similar to the hindu rituals done by hindu when worshipping their deity during a pilgrimage. this is only based on studies done by some scholars. and the muslim rituals is much more closer to the hindu practices than to jewish and christians practices. but it is already off-topic to discuss religion here.

so, was lapu-lapu a muslim or hindu?

maybe hindu but definitely not muslim.
martin_nuke
Makes Sense
Vijaya = Visaya
Datu Mandub
QUOTE(dalawapo @ Jun 15 2004, 04:24 AM) [snapback]233391[/snapback]

Ok i am confused. Rajah is an indian title for King etc. And wasnt Rajah Lapu-Lapu a teacher of the Kali Martial art which is said to have originated in india by way of Indonesia?

also i have read that, Rajah Humabon of Cebu (who was Rajah Lapu-Lapu's rival) was said to be son of Sri-Vijaya royalty.

So at this time when magellan sailed and met the visayans in 1521, were the people of Visayas Muslims or Hindu/Buddhists?
were the Luzon and Visayan islanders under indian spears of influence while the Mindanao and Sulu islanders were under the muslim spears of influence?

I read that when Magellan sailed to the philippines in 1521 his men stated that the Visayans did not have a form of writing.

but when the spaniard returned in 1567, they reported the flourishing Indic Baybayin script in the Visayan and Luzon areas only.

and that the Indic writing script is completely absent in Mindanao island.

so would that mean the Visayans were native chiefs but then about 50 years later they had adopted indian culture? becausewhy would the visayans be writing using an indic script if they were muslims, shouldn't the be using arabic script?

I also read that Rajah Sulieman of Manila of 1571 was a Muslim...

so how is that?

haha this is confusing me ARRRGHh who knows..... who knows....... shrug.gif



Correct, before Islam came to the Archipelago via Tawi-Tawi in the 14th century there was a Hindu influence among the natives where you can find titles like Raja (ruler) and Datu (chieftain).....

Lapu-Lapu is a Tausug. It is said that his skin are red or tanned (Pula-pula), some legends suggest scaly like the fish Lapu-Lapu. Raja Solaiman is a subordinate of the Sultan of Sulu, therefore, when the Spanish came in 1521 some parts of the islands are already converted to Islam....so....it is not correct that some native Muslims at that time has no form of writing since the Arab missionaries (Abu Bakr/ Shariful Hashim) already brought the Holy Qur'an and influence the natives of the Agama Islam (religion). As early as the 15th century the Sultans of Sulu are bearing seals with Arabic inscriptions.

By the way, in ancient times the Visaya is a word used by Tausug meaning slaves. When slaves escaped during that time they usually settled on the Islands what we now called Visayas.

xuta
was a Muslim

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapu_Lapu
bisaya
oral history and traditions of the natives support the claim that the inhabitants of the visayas are from the south. because according to most accounts the inhabitants of the visayas were fleeing from their brothers in the south who were already converted into islam. the reason for their escape to the north (to the visayas) was because they want to preserve the animistic-hinduistic religion of their ancestors, much like the inhabitants of bali who want to remain hindu while the neighboring kingdoms are already becoming muslim. they also want to preserve their ancient way like tattooing their whole body.
Forumwalker
lapu-lapu practiced animalism and praised Bathala.
The Red Baron
QUOTE(Forumwalker @ Aug 23 2006, 12:59 AM) [snapback]2209844[/snapback]

lapu-lapu practiced animalism and praised Bathala.


eek.gif


martin_nuke
Lapu-Lapu and the battle of Mactan


The battle of Mactan should be commemorated every year and our Muslim brothers should be proud that the first hero of the Filipino people is a Muslim – a Tausug – the famous fierce defender of freedom and sovereignty.


http://www.bangsamoro.info/
RL33
QUOTE(Forumwalker @ Aug 22 2006, 10:59 PM) [snapback]2209844[/snapback]

lapu-lapu practiced animalism and praised Bathala.


I doubt that he worshipped Bathala that god is known as a tagalog diety.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE(RL33 @ Aug 23 2006, 02:49 AM) [snapback]2210049[/snapback]

I doubt that he worshipped Bathala that god is known as a tagalog diety.

confused.gif

i thought northern luzon tribes have worshipped Bathala as well?

my opinion: does it matter whethere Lapu Lapu was Muslim, Jew, Christian, Agnostic, animist, shamanist, or Jehovah's Witness? what he stood for is waht's more important.
RL33
QUOTE(flipcombatmedic @ Aug 23 2006, 12:52 AM) [snapback]2210055[/snapback]

confused.gif

i thought northern luzon tribes have worshipped Bathala as well?

my opinion: does it matter whethere Lapu Lapu was Muslim, Jew, Christian, Agnostic, animist, shamanist, or Jehovah's Witness? what he stood for is waht's more important.


I stand corrected a Luzon diety but I dont think the visayans or Lapu Lapu ever worshipped Bathala.

Well I guess the poster just wanted to know more about Lapu Lapu since most people dont much about him other than he killed Megellan.
bisaya
lapu lapu may be a tausug but definitely not a muslim. the local accounts about lapulapu showed that he is not islamic. he had tattooes all ovcer his body and he did not worship allah. his ancestors like those in the other islands fled from the south to the north(visayas) because they dont want to become muslim.
oanari
QUOTE(flipcombatmedic @ Aug 23 2006, 02:52 AM) [snapback]2210055[/snapback]

confused.gif

i thought northern luzon tribes have worshipped Bathala as well?

my opinion: does it matter whethere Lapu Lapu was Muslim, Jew, Christian, Agnostic, animist, shamanist, or Jehovah's Witness? what he stood for is waht's more important.



Northern tribes do not worship Bathala, the Ilocanos and Cordillerans (Igorots) worship Kabunian. The Zambals worship Akasi. While the Bikolanos worship Gugusang. The Visayans worship Lauon. So maybe Lapu-lapu and his men prayed to Lauon before their battle against the Spanish.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE(oanari @ Aug 23 2006, 08:03 AM) [snapback]2210646[/snapback]

Northern tribes do not worship Bathala, the Ilocanos and Cordillerans (Igorots) worship Kabunian. The Zambals worship Akasi. While the Bikolanos worship Gugusang. The Visayans worship Lauon. So maybe Lapu-lapu and his men prayed to Lauon before their battle against the Spanish.

but what i meant to say was that, "bathala" as in the deity worshipped as the one high god above all else. i've read about Cordillerans worship of a one high god, and the book referred to it as "bathala". ie Ifugao or one Igolot tribe. like in God who is also Allah, Jehovah, Adonai, El Shaddai, El Elyon etc.
Datu Mandub
As what in the Wikepedia says he was called Kaliph Pulaka, then he must be an Islam religous leader.

Caliph (Halifa) is an Arabic religious title

bisaya
what wikipedia says is not always true.
oanari
QUOTE(flipcombatmedic @ Aug 23 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]2212042[/snapback]

but what i meant to say was that, "bathala" as in the deity worshipped as the one high god above all else. i've read about Cordillerans worship of a one high god, and the book referred to it as "bathala". ie Ifugao or one Igolot tribe. like in God who is also Allah, Jehovah, Adonai, El Shaddai, El Elyon etc.



When I was a kid I live in Cordillera for few months (Atok, Benguet to be exact). I even attended weddings and burials. Their highest God is "Kabunian." During weddings they prayed to Kabunian and ask for blessings, and also during burials the same thing, they prayed to Kabunian. The Ilocanos and Cordillerans God of gods is Kabunian, not Bathala because Bathala is for the Tagalogs.
jokotarub
What about somebody kindly invites his spirit back to ask him what his religion is?

About fleeing from the south, AFAIK Islam spread to northern Sulawesi/Celebes (i.e. Philippine's south) in 17th-18th century esp. from southern Sulawesi (Kingdoms of Makassar and Gowa) and southern Kalimantan/Borneo (Banjar Sultanate), to which it had spread earlier, like in late 15th-16th century. So IMHO it's unlikely that his ancestor fled from the advance of Islam in the south, but it's also unlikely that he's of Islamic faith. He's probably not a Hindu either -- is there any remains of Hindu civilizations (ruins of temples etc.) in the Philippines?
Datu Mandub
QUOTE(bisaya @ Aug 23 2006, 10:47 PM) [snapback]2213214[/snapback]

what wikipedia says is not always true.


Yeah, the trick is to find out the resources, then form your own conclusion.
tindak_bungtod
QUOTE(martin_nuke @ Aug 23 2006, 03:28 PM) [snapback]2210016[/snapback]

Lapu-Lapu and the battle of Mactan
The battle of Mactan should be commemorated every year and our Muslim brothers should be proud that the first hero of the Filipino people is a Muslim – a Tausug – the famous fierce defender of freedom and sovereignty.
http://www.bangsamoro.info/



Lapulapu is definitely not FILIPINO that's for sure. There wasn't a Philippines at that time. There's no question he was a Malay chief/warrior, but Filipino? He's a Malay Hero like his father Datu Manggal but definitely not Filipino.

QUOTE(Datu Mandub @ Aug 24 2006, 09:38 AM) [snapback]2212705[/snapback]

As what in the Wikepedia says he was called Kaliph Pulaka, then he must be an Islam religous leader.

Caliph (Halifa) is an Arabic religious title


Isn't it also possible that Kalipulaku (Lapulapu) actually means Caliph Pulaku or Kali (quick) Pulaku (Red one)?
bisaya
the visayan never became muslim, i'm a visayan, i'm from the philippines. i live here. i study its history. listen to the tales of our people. and our ancestors' oral history and practices clearly states that.. from our brothers in the south we flee because we wanted to preserve our ancestors' way, for what disgrace and insult it would be, to leave behind our ancestors' legacy.

lapulapu was not muslim. do you know the reason why he fought magellan? it is because he wanted to preserve the ways of our ancestors. and that is exactly why he was willing to face the cannons of the spaniards. and that was the same reason why his ancestors' before him had to flee to the north. it was to preserve the ancient ways of our ancestors, their religion and their practices. the natives of the visayas from the accounts of the spaniards supported that by saying that the natives had colorful tattoos all over their body. and they worshipped the anitos (ancestral deities). tattoos are prohibited in islam.

QUOTE
Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The evil eye is a fact,' and he forbade tattooing. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Dress, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 827)"

Narrated 'Aun bin Abu Juhaifa: "My father bought a slave who practiced the profession of cupping. (My father broke the slave's instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, 'The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tattooing, getting tattooed and receiving or giving Riba, (usury), and cursed the picture-makers.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Sales and Trade, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 299)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "Allah has cursed those women who practise tattooing and those who get themselves tattooed, and those who remove their face hairs, and those who create a space between their teeth artificially to look beautiful, and such women as change the features created by Allah. Why then should I not curse those whom the Prophet has cursed? And that is in Allah's Book. i.e. His Saying: 'And what the Apostle gives you take it and what he forbids you abstain (from it).' (59.7) (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Dress, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 815)


sulu may have an oral history that claims that lapulapu is a muslim but that was only a claim, when lapulapu successfully killed magellan and drive the spaniards away,, his achievement became known and he became famous througout the archipelago. and soon many are already claiming kinship to the man who was hailed as hero of his time.

here is one of the accounts that is more accurate in presenting facts.

http://www.docepares.net/ekarnishistory.html

the sulu accounts claim that lapulapu is muslim partly because some accounts says he is called "kalipula" and they say "kali" comes from "caliph" but they failed to see that "Kali" is a type of broad sword still popular among the Filipinos particularly those in the southern part of the country including the Muslim provinces. take note, it says including. which means not all who use it are muslims. it was already a popular weapon that was used by people whether muslim or lumads

"kalipula" could mean "red sword". meaning lapulapu already fought many battles and killed all his enemies.

QUOTE
The tribes of Lapulapu and Humabon were part of Sri Visayan Empire in the 14th century. After the Empire was defeated by the Maja Pahit Empire of ancient Sumatra and Borneo, the tribes became part of a group who fled and eventually settled in the islands of the Visayas Central Philippines. Another group of those Sri Vasayans, that included the tribes of Datu Puti and Datu Sumakwel, went out and settled in Panay Island.


http://www.answers.com/topic/majapahit-empire

QUOTE
Although the Majapahit rulers extended their power over other islands and destroyed neighboring kingdoms, their focus seems to have been on controlling and gaining a larger share of the commercial trade that passed through the archipelago. About the time Majapahit was founded, Muslim traders and proselytizers began entering the area.
vynncute
QUOTE(Forumwalker @ Aug 22 2006, 09:59 PM) [snapback]2209844[/snapback]

lapu-lapu practiced animalism and praised Bathala.


hey not animalism!

the right term is animism, Ancient Religion, belief of supernatural beings like diwata, inhabiting objects like rivers, lake, rocks, waterfalls, trees, even animals,

its nature worship, but there is also a Supreme Being, a creator in the name of Bathala or Kabunyan or Magbabaya or Ginoo etc. depending on the group of people.

The "Anito" meaning-spirit of the ancestors are also worshiped,

early filipinos believe in ghost too!

I think Lapu-lapu is not a Muslim nor a Hindu, in Hindu they worshipped Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and hundred or so lesser gods.

Lapu-Lapu's religion is that of nature and ancestor worship.
vynncute
QUOTE(bisaya @ Dec 11 2006, 08:06 PM) [snapback]2562364[/snapback]

the visayan never became muslim, i'm a visayan, i'm from the philippines. i live here. i study its history. listen to the tales of our people. and our ancestors' oral history and practices clearly states that.. from our brothers in the south we flee because we wanted to preserve our ancestors' way, for what disgrace and insult it would be, to leave behind our ancestors' legacy.

lapulapu was not muslim. do you know the reason why he fought magellan? it is because he wanted to preserve the ways of our ancestors. and that is exactly why he was willing to face the cannons of the spaniards. and that was the same reason why his ancestors' before him had to flee to the north. it was to preserve the ancient ways of our ancestors, their religion and their practices. the natives of the visayas from the accounts of the spaniards supported that by saying that the natives had colorful tattoos all over their body. and they worshipped the anitos (ancestral deities). tattoos are prohibited in islam.
sulu may have an oral history that claims that lapulapu is a muslim but that was only a claim, when lapulapu successfully killed magellan and drive the spaniards away,, his achievement became known and he became famous througout the archipelago. and soon many are already claiming kinship to the man who was hailed as hero of his time.


^ I agree 100%, in addition, the Lumads of Mindanao also flee to the mountains when the Islam Religion was introduced because We want to preserve our old practices, Islam prohibits the eating of pork and Lumads enjoys the old practice of hunting "BABOY RAMO" and USA,

Islamic Law is different from Lumad Law and Practices, so for the Lumads it Su(Ks. Das why until now we lumads preserved some of the practices and laws in our ancestral domain.

Hey! we beat the visayans in preserving Indigenous Culture and religion, bcoZ they are now Roman Catholics.

RIGHT?
bisaya
Yes, right vynncute!

they accepted the spanish catholic faith because the visayans thought they were worshipping the same anito. when the spaniards gave them the image of the Holy Child. it looks the same as their anito and the belief about a God(divine)-child that is a mediator between the supreme god and man is not new to them who believe in a child diety who mediates between the supreme god and man. so dont be surprised if they have so much devotion to the Santo Niño. the devotion has its connection to the ancient religion. it was only later where they realized the two are different but they were able to somehow make the compromise by mixing the old and the new. the ancestral spirits are still very much alive among the visayans. they are what we now call engkantos or nature spirits while the one that is recognize as the supreme God is the God of christianity.

i revieved this old thread in response to the statement of a certain POLVORON who insist that he is right by saying:

QUOTE
Dude Lapu Lapu was Muslim.....majority of Visayas was muslim...its so obvious.
U ever wonder why Manny Pacquiao is so admired by Muslim rebels??? because they think he has Moro blood running in his vains because they believe that all visayans were once Muslim.
If Spanish never came Philippines would be like Indonesia (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)


here is the link: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...9003&st=100

let the muslims believe what they want to believe but if we are to be truthful about our history. the accounts are clear from the oral history of the natives (visayan) corroborated by the accounts of the spaniards and the oral history of the lumads who lived east of mindanao.

it is not surprising to know that the oral history of the visayans are very similar to those of the lumads because they may have been from one group who took separated and split into 2 groups, one group (the lumads, the ancestors\' of vynncute) fled to the east, to took refuge in the mountain ranges east of mindanao (misamis, bukidnon, davao), while the other group (our ancestors, the visayan) fled to the north and seek the protection of the sea. they took advantage of the natural barriers (the big mountains and the sea) that separated them from the advancing muslim power in the south.
Jc2
I think Lapulapu only adopted some Hindu and/or Islamic influence but he didn't converted fully to either religions.
Ek-ek
Lapu-lapu is a Muslim his undocumented name is Calip Kulapu
Najjiah
i think he was hindu. the word "mukha" is even a sanskrit word meaning "to face". its another forgotten aspect of our culture.
garouga
Yea he was most likely Hindu. Even the god of the ancient Tagalogs, Bathala, is derived from Batara Guru (supreme deity/teacher), and is another name for the Hindu deity Shiva.
bisaya
QUOTE(Ek-ek @ Dec 12 2006, 11:36 PM) [snapback]2563761[/snapback]

Lapu-lapu is a Muslim his undocumented name is Calip Kulapu


you say undocumented. so it would still need a non-sulu source to corroborate that claim.

as for his being a non-muslim, the fact is supported by the visayan oral history, the oral history of the lumads in mindanao and the spanish accounts on the journey of magellan.

it all fits into the puzzle. because the lumads and the visayans might have been kin at one time who took separate ways, one group fled to the mountains east of mindanao, another group fled to the islands in the visayas. their oral history is similar because they both have the same reason why they had to flee from the south.
Mulawin
Datu Lapulapu is either an animist (native Filipino religion lost through time) or muslim...

and just beacuse hes wearing a loincloth doesnt mean hes japanese...most tribal people usually wear loincloths...but hes upper body clothing is of Arab origin, literally...

my 2 factual cents..


QUOTE(Datu Mandub @ Aug 22 2006, 08:47 AM) [snapback]2206563[/snapback]

Correct, before Islam came to the Archipelago via Tawi-Tawi in the 14th century there was a Hindu influence among the natives where you can find titles like Raja (ruler) and Datu (chieftain).....

Lapu-Lapu is a Tausug. It is said that his skin are red or tanned (Pula-pula), some legends suggest scaly like the fish Lapu-Lapu. Raja Solaiman is a subordinate of the Sultan of Sulu, therefore, when the Spanish came in 1521 some parts of the islands are already converted to Islam....so....it is not correct that some native Muslims at that time has no form of writing since the Arab missionaries (Abu Bakr/ Shariful Hashim) already brought the Holy Qur'an and influence the natives of the Agama Islam (religion). As early as the 15th century the Sultans of Sulu are bearing seals with Arabic inscriptions.

By the way, in ancient times the Visaya is a word used by Tausug meaning slaves. When slaves escaped during that time they usually settled on the Islands what we now called Visayas.

bisaya
http://www.geocities.com/rolborr/lapulapu.html

according to research lapulapu is a waray. he is Kali Pulaku (the Red Sword) or BagaSumbol (like the feathered ornament/symbol of victory) but whether waray or sugbuanon, one thing is sure he is a visayan whose ancestors came from the south and established an independent kingdom in the visayas.

http://mvphilippines.hypermart.net/filipinos.htm

QUOTE
The first foreigner to describe a native of the Philippines was Antonio Pigafetta, the chronicler who accompanied Ferdinand Magellan on his voyage, and in 1521 found himself in what we know as the Vasayas. He described the people as pintados, the painted ones, because their bodies instead of being covered with clothing was largely covered with tattoos. All men were tattooed from ankle to chest, warriors on the breast and back as well, with the bravest and boldest bearing still more designs from chin to ear to eye. Some were bearded while others had no facial hair. They were well-built, as tall as the Spaniards, and though most were naked they wore small palm-leaf hats. Their long black hair reached to their waist and was tied at the back. Some wore G-strings beneath which their skin showed lighter and was without tattoo.

Women had tattoos only on the hands, either one or both hands decorated in designs executed with exceedingly fine lines reminiscent of damask or embroidery. They, too, were mostly naked, although some wore a narrow strip of bark cloth thin as paper to cover their privies. They were good-looking, delicately formed with exceedingly black hair worn loose, hanging quite down to the ground. The women were lighter of skin than the men because while the men worked outdoors, the women spent their time indoors weaving mats, baskets and other household items from palm leaves.
vynncute
QUOTE(bisaya @ Dec 12 2006, 07:48 PM) [snapback]2565304[/snapback]

http://www.geocities.com/rolborr/lapulapu.html

according to research lapulapu is a waray. he is Kali Pulaku (the Red Sword) or BagaSumbol (like the feathered ornament/symbol of victory) but whether waray or sugbuanon, one thing is sure he is a visayan whose ancestors came from the south and established an independent kingdom in the visayas.

http://mvphilippines.hypermart.net/filipinos.htm



BAY WA JUD TAY MAHIMO ANI, HIMUUN JUD NILANG MUSLIM SI LAPU-LAPU,

MGA AMAW GAYOOOOOD! thumbsdown.gif
bisaya
hehehe..

kay gihimo man gani nilag muslim tanan tao sa pilipinas. kay ila gyud daw ning pilipinas sa wala pa ang mga kastila. di ta sugot ana oi kay di mana tinuod. nagsakripisyo gud ato katiguwangan aron maipamana sa ato ang karaan na mga pamaagi human angkunon lang nila ang tanan na ilaha pati ning mga yutaa. icon_smile.gif

they also claim that sulayman of rajah sulayman is muslim. they failed to see that there is an ancient word that is still being use in samar. the word "Sulay" meaning "hindrance". that is where the sugbuanon word for "test" or "trial" originates (e.g. mga pagSULAY, SULAYi lang). because before one could approach the chieftain they would first pass a series of hindrances mga "pagsulay" to test them if they are worthy of the honor of being close to the chieftain. the samarnon word "pakaSULAY MAN" or shortened to an expression "SULAY MAN" means "to be a hindrance".

SULAYMAN would mean "one who is a hindrance" or "one that hinders you" (i.e. a power to contend with), our rajah and datus dont have islamic names instead they used our local languages in their names.

take for example Rajah Bangkaw. "Bangkaw" is the local word for "bamboo spear" used for hunting wild boar.

Kolambo (rajah kolambo) probably comes from the word for the "net" used in trapping and capturing the wild animals that they hunt. that is why mosquito nets are known as "kolambo". the name "kolambo" could mean "someone who is like a net that trap his enemies."

although there is also a very small possiblity that it was influenced by the name of the ottoman suleiman 1 that ruled just about the same time (1520-1566). or maybe it was from the muslim word for solomon. it was on 1565 where spaniard mentioned about a muslim settlement in manila. co-ruled by a rajah matanda and a rajah soleiman. but take note that the ottoman muslim suleiman was called a sultan but this sulayman in manila was called a rajah. and he was only a co-ruler.

the same happened in sulu where a muslim sultanate was established during the 1450s and the ruler Shari'ful Hashem Syed Abu Bakr, an Arab born in Johore, renamed himself "Paduka Maulana Mahasari Sharif SULTAN Hashem Abu Bakr".
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