Malaysia faith forum to defy mob


By Jonathan Kent
BBC News, Kuala Lumpur

Campaigners for more religious freedom in Malaysia plan to go ahead with a meeting on Saturday, weeks after a mob broke up a similar gathering.

A group of NGOs, known as Article 11, is pushing for Malaysia to honour constitutional guarantees enabling all citizens to practise their faith.

Relations between Malaysia's Muslim majority and members of other faiths have become increasingly strained.

Matters were brought to a head by a recent series of court cases.

In the most controversial case, an Islamic court ruled that a Hindu man be given a Muslim burial against the wishes of his family after Islamic religious authorities presented evidence that he had converted.

Mob threat

Faced with such rulings and amid concerns that Islamists are trying to impose their values on the country, a number of civic groups have banded together with the stated aim of defending Malaysia's constitution.

They say the constitution is secular and allows Malaysians to profess and practise the faith of their choosing.

The group has championed the cases of Muslims who have fought to leave their faith.

In turn, some Muslims are worried that their religion is under threat.

Some have accused Article 11 of being part of an attempt to undermine Islam's place as Malaysia's official religion.

A mob of 500 ethnic Malay Muslims forcibly stopped Article 11's last forum on Penang Island in May.

The group says it intends to go ahead with the meeting in the southern city of Johor Baru on Saturday and hopes that any protests will be peaceful.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia...fic/5205328.stm

Published: 2006/07/22 00:54:08 GMT

© BBC MMVI

nih lagi satu mamat tak paham-paham.....

Abandoning Islam for Christianity is such a sensitive issue in Malaysia that many converts find themselves leading a secret, double life.

Malaysian Muslims pray behind of the Koran during a special morning prayer at the National Mosque in Kuala Lumpur
Malay-Muslims make up 60% of the country's population
"If people know that I've converted to Christianity, they might take the law into their own hands. If they are not broadminded, they might take a stone and throw it at me."

Maria - not her real name - is a young Malaysian woman who has lived a secret and sometimes fearful life since she converted from Islam to Christianity.

Apostasy, as it is known, has become one of the most controversial issues in Malaysia today.

Maria became a Christian over a decade ago when she was 18. She says no-one forced her to convert, that she made the decision after studying different religious texts.


And, even now, the church she attends asked her to sign a declaration stating the church is not responsible for her conversion.

"My church says if the authorities come, they are not going to stand up for me. I have to stand up for myself," she said.

Not even Maria's family know she has converted.

"If my family find out I am no longer a Muslim they will completely cut me off. That means my name in the family will be erased.

"I could migrate, but the problem is I want to stay in Malaysia, because this is my country. And I love my family. I just want to live peacefully."

Heated debate

Malay-Muslims make up 60% of Malaysia's population. The rest are mostly Christians, Hindus and Buddhists.

But many Malaysian Muslims believe that people like Maria pose a threat to Islam.

And the debate between those who say Maria should have the right to officially convert, and those who are against apostasy has become so heated that the prime minister has asked both sides not to discuss sensitive religious questions in public.


She is very aware of the possible consequences of her decision to become a Christian if she is discovered.

"If the authorities find out, I will be in big trouble. They will create hell between me and my family, and hell in my life so that I will no longer get any privileges or employment."

Her fears are not unfounded. Another convert - Lina Joy - has been forced to go into hiding since her case went to court.

And at least one of the lawyers involved in that case has had a death threat against him.


That means changing the identity cards that state they are Muslim.

Until now, the state has refused to do this until an apostasy order is granted from the Sharia court.

But both women claim they are no longer Muslim, so why should they go to the Sharia court?

For Maria there is a lot at stake. She has a boyfriend who is also a Christian and knows she is too.

The couple want to get married. But while Maria is still officially a Muslim, the only way they could wed in Malaysia would be if he converted to Islam.

And Maria's family - unhappy with her choice of partner - are pressuring him to do just that.

Crucial time

Maria is tired of living a double life.

"It's very frustrating," she tells us tearfully. "It means I have to limit my scope with friends.

"I have to be able to completely trust someone before I dare to reveal myself.

"I know some other secret converts, but I never keep in touch with them.

"I can't let my network widen, because you don't always know who you are dealing with."


I feel that I am all alone in this struggle
Maria
Only a tiny number of people have converted from Islam in Malaysia.

But the coming months will be crucial for them because a decision is expected in the case of Lina Joy.

The outcome of that case may well determine whether Maria will be able to live the life she dreams of - to be married to her boyfriend and live openly as a Christian.

Right now she can't imagine it.

"I feel that I am all alone in this struggle," she says, "and I am frightened because I am alone against the odds."

Crossing Continents was broadcast on Thursday, 16 November 2006, at 1102 GMT.

The programme will be repeated on Monday, 20 November 2006 at 2030 GMT.

So in Malaysia, Muslims can't convert to other religion?I'm sorry, but that is SO wrong!We have this thing called "Human Rights", if u haven't heard of it. It includes the freedom of religiousity!

If you are a muslim, and believe that Islam is the truth, u shouldnt feel threatened by muslim who wishes to convert. It's their loss, right?

Human Rights in Islam ?

Freedom of Religiousity?

You must be kidding, right?

There are NO freedom of religiousity in Muslim countries, such as: Malaysia, Indon, Saudi Arabia, and on on...

If those Muslim countries allow all Muslims to convert to become non Muslim FREELY, Muslims will become minority in those Muslims countries.

Human Rights in Islam? Oh my gosh !! Where have you been? Do you read news? You dare to criticize Prophet Muhammad who married 9 years old (Aisyiah) as pedhopilia, your head will be cut by Muslims.

Get real !!

There is nothing to gain with insults and name calling, all religions have "good points" and "bad points", we need to learn to to be more tolerant of each other and approach each other with friendship.

being modest arent you doc? how so diplomatic!

So in Malaysia, Muslims can't convert to other religion?I'm sorry, but that is SO wrong!We have this thing called "Human Rights", if u haven't heard of it. It includes the freedom of religiousity!

If you are a muslim, and believe that Islam is the truth, u shouldnt feel threatened by muslim who wishes to convert. It's their loss, right?

Human Rights in Islam ?

Freedom of Religiousity?

You must be kidding, right?

There are NO freedom of religiousity in Muslim countries, such as: Malaysia, Indon, Saudi Arabia, and on on...

If those Muslim countries allow all Muslims to convert to become non Muslim FREELY, Muslims will become minority in those Muslims countries.

Human Rights in Islam? Oh my gosh !! Where have you been? Do you read news? You dare to criticize Prophet Muhammad who married 9 years old (Aisyiah) as pedhopilia, your head will be cut by Muslims.

Get real !!

We believe ISLAM the only truth religion in this world.. So we can't let our Muslim friends choose unthruth religion... That why!

Human Rights in Islam ?

Freedom of Religiousity?

You must be kidding, right?

There are NO freedom of religiousity in Muslim countries, such as: Malaysia, Indon, Saudi Arabia, and on on...

If those Muslim countries allow all Muslims to convert to become non Muslim FREELY, Muslims will become minority in those Muslims countries.

Human Rights in Islam? Oh my gosh !! Where have you been? Do you read news? You dare to criticize Prophet Muhammad who married 9 years old (Aisyiah) as pedhopilia, your head will be cut by Muslims.

Get real !!

We believe ISLAM the only truth religion in this world.. So we can't let our Muslim friends choose unthruth religion... That why!
Lot amount of Islamphobia here??? So what your religion.. Prove your religion was the best???

You believe that ur religion is the truth?Fine, in fact, that's really good!But other people also think of that way about their religion. Think about it, if u r a christian in a christian country, and u receive ur "aqidah" to be a muslim, but u can't because the law doesnt let u. How'd u feel?
Tolerance is the keyword, my friend.

Easy, just go to Muslim country that accept me... Hijrah.

So what you're saying is taht all Muslims who wish to change religions in Malaysia should leave the country?

No and for your information, my answer above just for me answering Bashkara question...

So what should Muslims who wish to changre religions in Malaysia do?

There is nothing to gain with insults and name calling, all religions have "good points" and "bad points", we need to learn to to be more tolerant of each other and approach each other with friendship.

They have to go to Syariah Court and apply.... And wait until court decided...

And what are the chances of the Syariah Court approving their request and how long would it normally take?

Sorry doc, I just dunno about it.

Why? Because human rights? Sorry, but I don't believe in that, doc.
If people freely choose religion like riding horse it will makes people thinks religion was a joke...

Why? Because human rights? Sorry, but I don't believe in that, doc.
If people freely choose religion like riding horse it will makes people thinks religion was a joke...

I respectfully disagree. Choosing a religion is not like choosing a horse. If changing religions was as blase as choosing a horse, should the government then not allow Christians, Buddists or Hindus to convert to Islam?
The Bible in particular states that Christians have a responsibility towards other Christians faith ie we should not let/discourage others from giving up Christianity.

Furthermore, can you make someone practice a religion? If someone truly believes in God/Allah can you make them worship the other. If someone in their heart believed in God and not Allah but were Muslim by name only and worshiped God in their heart, would Allah accept them into heaven?

If Malaysia was Christian, and you were born Christian but now believed in Islam, and someone said to you, I'm sorry you cannot convert, could they make you believe in God or stop you from practicing the faith of your choosing?

betong,
nice way to answer for something that you can't convince urself about it as well.

1) to FORCE other religion to convert to muslim just bcos of marriage...
2) not allowed to convert from muslim to other religion...

the 2 points below explain a lot about muslim.

islam does not force anybody to convert,its just that the constitution of marriage in islam,
will only allow the marriage to be done,when both the bride and groom are muslim.
if one of the couple is not muslim,the marriage is void.

frankly if u cant commit to such regulation
u can always get married in other religion that do not forbid inter-religion marriage
but then again if u are a muslim its forbidden

u can always get married in other religion that do not forbid inter-religion marriage
but then again if u are a muslim its forbidden

havent i explained clear enough?
or u still wanna fight about the word "forced conversion"

im a free thinker,and i respect every religion
each religion has their own ways,their own believes

kurekuresakti,

i still stand by with the 2 points i pointed out above.
any twisting of words at the end of it will still come back to the 2 points....
btw, if you want to make it cannot convert to other religion, why don't they make another point such as other religion cannot convert to muslim as well?

the 2 points explained why muslim is growing in this world as well...

The 2 point above expain how brilliant Islam was

But I called it brilliant...

Why? Because human rights? Sorry, but I don't believe in that, doc.
If people freely choose religion like riding horse it will makes people thinks religion was a joke...

Only Islam was clearly stated that Muslim cannot convert. For me, apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. Treason to Islam and whole muslim society. Maybe for you its only limited to political and military terms but not for me at least. So you cannot let treason running in your society and destroy the harmonic of society. To make sure what so called "human rights" is protected, here in Malaysia, we have syariah law, that clearly stated only gov can acted against this kind of thing. But a treason must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means–casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God which we as a muslim cannot let it from happen.
God can accept anyone into heaven. It not for me to decided, who go to heaven or not as I just only His servant.
If they show me there a better religion Islam, why not....

islam does not force anybody to convert,its just that the constitution of marriage in islam,
will only allow the marriage to be done,when both the bride and groom are muslim.
if one of the couple is not muslim,the marriage is void.

frankly if u cant commit to such regulation
u can always get married in other religion that do not forbid inter-religion marriage
but then again if u are a muslim its forbidden

just to comment about your second point,
arent all religion forbid their followers from converting?
my christian says that catholics ade forbidden from converting,
and im sure others do to

Only Islam was clearly stated that Muslim cannot convert. For me, apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. Treason to Islam and whole muslim society. Maybe for you its only limited to political and military terms but not for me at least. So you cannot let treason running in your society and destroy the harmonic of society. To make sure what so called "human rights" is protected, here in Malaysia, we have syariah law, that clearly stated only gov can acted against this kind of thing. But a treason must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means–casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God which we as a muslim cannot let it from happen.

God can accept anyone into heaven. It not for me to decided, who go to heaven or not as I just only His servant.

If they show me there a better religion Islam, why not....

u can always get married in other religion that do not forbid inter-religion marriage
but then again if u are a muslim its forbidden

You just cannot compare Islam with other religion and vice versa...
Maybe some are their teaching are same but did Christian practice it...
I don't think so...
I'm not so surprise if Christian have same methodoly regarding married because we're still what so called "Abrahamic Religion"....

You should not asked what Malaysia will do??? The right question was did Singapore have a gut to do that??? It not compatible with human rights that proposed by American to Singapore.... What American will say first???

How would Malaysia respond if Singapore laws made it compulsory that in inter-religious marriages, Muslims had to convert to either Christianity of Buddism?

But once you're muslim, Your're not allowed to get out. We make damn sure anyone who wish to convert to Islam understand this fact. it's like joining the regular army. once you've join, you must serve the term.

Woi Betong! kenapa ko guna slogan UTM?

We never force any non-muslim to join Islam for sure.....

The a rule that said that said Muslim cannot married non-Muslim...
And that I called brilliant...

Surely your Malay friend doesn't know what he miss!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5205328.stm
If Muslims believe Islam is the real religion, why they are so afraid if Muslims will convert to become non Muslims?

There is something wrong with Islam

So in Malaysia, Muslims can't convert to other religion?I'm sorry, but that is SO wrong!We have this thing called "Human Rights", if u haven't heard of it. It includes the freedom of religiousity!

If you are a muslim, and believe that Islam is the truth, u shouldnt feel threatened by muslim who wishes to convert. It's their loss, right?