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Titanium
As the title of the thread suggests. Please no flaming on this thread and keep it clean. The US has been complaining about China's military buildup for the past few decades now. Ever since Mao started China's nuclear program back in the 60's. Each year the US comes up with the same argument "China needs to keep it's military budget low and not try to challenge US dominance". For me this seems rather absurd and apparently Chinese politicians feel the same way. The US has by far the world's biggest military expenditure. China has not even a one tenth of it's size and on top of that the US is the only powerful nation that's militarily active in the world. China has not a single soldier stationed abroad anywhere. Chinese military capability only extends furthest in defensive measures. China is only capable of protecting and defending itself against foreign aggressors and yet the US seems to be even upset about this. The very idea that the US could even lecture another country on military buildup seems hypocritical and flat out absurd which is why Beijing tends to ignore everything Washington says. Most Chinese politicians believe the only reason the US is criticizing is because they don't have the ability to completely subjugate China militarily without suffering disastrous consequences. The rhetoric of the US government seems to be that "Any nation that even has the power to defend themselves against us should we choose military action is considered a threat". China's modern history was one of extreme darkness with foreign powers coming in and subjugating the Chinese people at will. It would seem only logical that China's builds up a military capable of defending itself after suffering war with European powers and the Japanese.

However the US is the world's only sole superpower and as such it will inevitably try to maintain dominance over others at all cost. It is only natural that a superpower behaves this way so in the end are these complaints valid or justified?
Suijen
It's understandable to recognize another country's military growth. If I had a neighbor who bought a new gun a year, I'd take note of that.

However, the US needs to recognize China's military growth, but in no way DETER it. China is a sovereign country and has every right to build up its military, with reason or not.

The US should recognize China's military growth, but should not use it against China or try to deter it, either by questioning the reason for growth, or engaging China on it. If you have no legitimate reason to fear the growth, then don't complain about it.
Chinese_Soldier
The US complaints are just stupid and is just hypocrisy. Lets see:

Who spends $500+ billion on military a year? Not China
Who has 12 carriers? Not China
Who has 5000+ Nukes? Not China
Who has 500+ ICBM? Not China
Who has military bases in nearly every continent? Not China
VietPunk
well, U.S. doesn't remain top dog by letting other countries build up
Chinese_Soldier
QUOTE(VietPunk @ Nov 18 2006, 04:07 PM) [snapback]2493306[/snapback]

well, U.S. doesn't remain top dog by letting other countries build up


They also don't remain top dog with a $10 trillion dollar external debt and an idiotic leader.
Titanium
One thing that I am happy about though is that Chinese leaders do a superb job of ignoring/dismissing these criticisms. They did a good job of making Rumsfeld look like an idiot last year and continue to do so today because finding US inconsistency is not a difficult task at all.
Jasel
I have a feeling alot of US officials know gradual military buildups worldwide are inevitable but just do what they can to slow down that growth to maintain US military dominance. Despite tensions between the countries I doubt there's much of a chance for hostilities between either nation. I think the main goal is to keep China from having an even greater influence in Asia than it already does for as long as possible. Which naturally lowers the US' influence.
Suijen
QUOTE(Jasel @ Nov 18 2006, 04:14 PM) [snapback]2493450[/snapback]

I have a feeling alot of US officials know gradual military buildups worldwide are inevitable but just do what they can to slow down that growth to maintain US military dominance. Despite tensions between the countries I doubt there's much of a chance for hostilities between either nation. I think the main goal is to keep China from having an even greater influence in Asia than it already does for as long as possible. Which naturally lowers the US' influence.


The US can only do so much. They call the China threat, but because China ignores it or doesn't critically respond back, the US has nothing to build momentum on. Besides, we're integrated markets. Whether China attacks US or the US attacks China, we'll both lose, since we have so much at state economically wise.

I think the US should just admit that keeping an influence in Asia is just too tough. China is just closer to all these countries. Whatever happens to China will affect these countries more than whatever happens to the US.
China's influence isn't getting smaller, and as China grows, naturally, because of it's locale, it's going to have an advantage of influence.

It's like, imagine if China tried to gain influence with Mexico. It's just not happening.
Jasel
The US could always build up it's influence as well. Maybe I should say re-build. The only problem is for the past decade we've had a bunch of stupid fu-king Republicans running things who piss everyone off as well an idiot for a President who sure as hell didn't help.
Suijen
^ Cold War politics has declined since then. Even if the US rebuilds its influence back during the time of its peak, there's still that handicap of location. The US is far away from Asia, so it'll always be at a disadvantage compared to China when vying for Asian influence.

Of course, you can take into account economics, politics, military, yadda yadda, but it's nothing that China can't work on, whereas the US isn't moving any closer to Asia.
froglee
Just let everyone know the Asian country which bought the most weapons last year in Asia is India, not China.
KJlost
Indian domestic military industry is still underdeveloped. It's mainly beauracratic crap than any real technological challenges, but it's their problem. Besides, India is faily well-contained by Pakistan and the US fleet in the region.
froglee
QUOTE(KJlost @ Nov 18 2006, 10:27 PM) [snapback]2493920[/snapback]

Indian domestic military industry is still underdeveloped. It's mainly beauracratic crap than any real technological challenges, but it's their problem. Besides, India is faily well-contained by Pakistan and the US fleet in the region.


US is helping India, not containing India.
STFU
Among all east asian countries, only South Korea and Japan are complaining the re-emergence of China. I dont see other asian countries whine about it. what's the deal?

KJlost
Let's be blunt: who else's opinion really matters? The Mongolians? Never been an issue whether Chinese had new planes or ships with them. Their economic, military and political strength has never been comparable to China's in this centuary. The Norks? They're crazy anyway, so who cares what they think?

QUOTE(froglee @ Nov 18 2006, 11:23 PM) [snapback]2494113[/snapback]

US is helping India, not containing India.


They are courting India, precisely because they have them contained to the Indian Ocean and surrounding nations.
STFU
QUOTE(KJlost @ Nov 19 2006, 12:00 AM) [snapback]2494223[/snapback]

Let's be blunt: who else's opinion really matters? The Mongolians? Never been an issue whether Chinese had new planes or ships with them. Their economic, military and political strength has never been comparable to China's in this centuary. The Norks? They're crazy anyway, so who cares what they think?


i think only american's opinion matters. south korea is too small of an economy and political entity to have a chance to compete with china. japan has potential, but she is a lap dog of USA for the foreseeable future and the US aint going to completely give uo her contorl over Japan. Since SK and JP have no way to compete with China for East Asia dominance. why bothers to complain? that's my thinking.




big_d!ck
The US spend 10x more on military than any contry in the world.
froglee
QUOTE(KJlost @ Nov 19 2006, 12:00 AM) [snapback]2494223[/snapback]

Let's be blunt: who else's opinion really matters? The Mongolians? Never been an issue whether Chinese had new planes or ships with them. Their economic, military and political strength has never been comparable to China's in this centuary. The Norks? They're crazy anyway, so who cares what they think?
They are courting India, precisely because they have them contained to the Indian Ocean and surrounding nations.


No, US is courting India because it wants to contain China.
Vitality
Even though the US is acting rather hypocritical, you can't blame them. It's like you said, The US is the world's only superpower, they'd be damned if they just sat by and watched a competitor slowly overtake them.
ninjakamster
QUOTE(froglee @ Nov 19 2006, 02:26 AM) [snapback]2494436[/snapback]

No, US is courting India because it wants to contain China.


Um......durr? icon_rolleyes.gif

Froglee, why aren't you telling us your sick fetish for India again? Why haven't you been banned?
KJlost
QUOTE(STFU @ Nov 19 2006, 12:07 AM) [snapback]2494235[/snapback]

i think only american's opinion matters. south korea is too small of an economy and political entity to have a chance to compete with china. japan has potential, but she is a lap dog of USA for the foreseeable future and the US aint going to completely give uo her contorl over Japan. Since SK and JP have no way to compete with China for East Asia dominance. why bothers to complain? that's my thinking.


Yes, that's what you (Chinese) think.
kunomchu
East asia dominance? Theres like only 4 countries in east asia...
Aiwo
QUOTE(Chinese_Soldier @ Nov 18 2006, 11:03 PM) [snapback]2493295[/snapback]

The US complaints are just stupid and is just hypocrisy. Lets see:

Who spends $500+ billion on military a year? Not China
Who has 12 carriers? Not China
Who has 5000+ Nukes? Not China
Who has 500+ ICBM? Not China
Who has military bases in nearly every continent? Not China



yeah, but they are ''the guard of democracy and human rights'' icon_confused.gif
education
Does being the guard of democracy include raping and killing innocent civilians in american military bases all around the world? Yes i can see there doing a great job of instilling democracy in iraq and afghanistan as well as protecting human rights? FYI Iraq was alot more democratic and less violent before the U.S arrived about the only thing they did right in Iraq was removing Saddam. Guard of democracy and human rights my a** thats what they hope you believe but 65% of americans would tell you something different.

QUOTE(Aiwo @ Nov 19 2006, 03:12 PM) [snapback]2495675[/snapback]

yeah, but they are ''the guard of democracy and human rights'' icon_confused.gif

martin_nuke
Iraq under Sadam Hussein was a facist dictatorship regime and many were executed who are against his regime.
education
No argument there and I never said that things were better under saddam all Im simply saying is in the case of bush or saddam leadership is kind of like being told to pick your poision. Many are getting executed now and blown up today so wheres the improvement they keep talking about?


QUOTE(martin_nuke @ Nov 19 2006, 08:01 PM) [snapback]2496508[/snapback]

Iraq under Sadam Hussein was a facist dictatorship regime and many were executed who are against his regime.

martin_nuke
United States is only interested in Iraq's oil that is why it was invaded. Iraq will never be a peaceful country because it it agitated by terrorists. Democracy will not prevail in Iraq it is a no man's land. There are many casualties in the US and Iraq side mostly soldiers and terrorist and civilian casualties are the cause of suicide bombers.
education
I agree!


United States is only interested in Iraq's oil
Tenjikuronin
QUOTE(KJlost @ Nov 18 2006, 07:27 PM) [snapback]2493920[/snapback]

Besides, India is faily well-contained by Pakistan and the US fleet in the region.

India is contained by Pakistan?

HAHAHAHAHAHA


Oh god that was funny. laugh.gif


I really hope you weren't serious.
shyam
when you are number 1, then you see another guy trying to take your place..there will be some concern.
US is not only concern about military build-up, but other aspects also...

It is the nature for politicians to be concerned or 'look' liked concerned...it helps to get votes and keep their job.

Also it helps them control the world economy by using different tactics to influence trades...

somehow everything is connected....
froglee
QUOTE(ninjakamster @ Nov 19 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]2495131[/snapback]

Um......durr? icon_rolleyes.gif

Froglee, why aren't you telling us your sick fetish for India again? Why haven't you been banned?


Yup. I am still enjoying posting India-related topics very much. Why?
BigBenChow
This is comical.

America's military budget is bigger then all of the world's military budget combined, and yet they are still complaining.
aaaw
QUOTE(Jasel @ Nov 18 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]2493479[/snapback]

The US could always build up it's influence as well. Maybe I should say re-build. The only problem is for the past decade we've had a bunch of stupid fu-king Republicans running things who piss everyone off as well an idiot for a President who sure as hell didn't help.


Yes, I think the US could have gain far greater influence had it used trade and diplomacy instead of military to get what it wants around the world.

Chinese_Soldier
QUOTE(aaaw @ Nov 20 2006, 10:04 AM) [snapback]2498561[/snapback]

Yes, I think the US could have gain far greater influence had it used trade and diplomacy instead of military to get what it wants around the world.


It believes it can get countries like Russia and China to submit to them (but to no avail) and scare countries like Libya to look after American interest first by bombing small nations and destroying their military in a day.
michinobu_zoned
QUOTE(BigBenChow @ Nov 20 2006, 10:58 AM) [snapback]2498546[/snapback]

This is comical.

America's military budget is bigger then all of the world's military budget combined, and yet they are still complaining.

That's because the US's military is used to defend most countries in the world in addition to its own.

education
Yeah sure defend? There doing a great job of defending those poor iraqi civilians that continue to get blown up each and everyday or beheaded by insurgents. What good is a $500 billlion dollar military budget anyways when they cant even defend the iraqis from getting abducted by insurgents? Dont make me laugh Defend??Right

QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 21 2006, 12:16 AM) [snapback]2500757[/snapback]

That's because the US's military is used to defend most countries in the world in addition to its own.
michinobu_zoned
QUOTE(Chinese_Soldier @ Nov 20 2006, 04:01 PM) [snapback]2499195[/snapback]

It believes it can get countries like Russia and China to submit to them (but to no avail) and scare countries like Libya to look after American interest first by bombing small nations and destroying their military in a day.


All this talk about how big and bad the US is, but you forget the amount of good the US has done. Hasn't the US saved China from Japan? Of all people, shouldn't the Chinese be thankful of the US?

The US has done more good than bad. I am not saying that the US is perfect but as far as military powers have been in recorded history, it's the most benevolent.

QUOTE(education @ Nov 21 2006, 12:19 AM) [snapback]2500765[/snapback]

Yeah sure defend? There doing a great job of defending those poor iraqi civilians that continue to get blown up each and everyday or beheaded by insurgents. What good is a $500 billlion dollar military budget anyways when they cant even defend the iraqis from getting abducted by insurgents? Dont make me laugh Defend??Right

Dude, you're fu-king stupid. One country doesn't apply to the whole world, first off. Second, Iraq's problem is that there's not enough troops there.

Personally, the war was a bad idea at the time as we were already in Afghanistan and it wasn't even executed properly. But, that still doesn't mean that most countries around the world don't benefit from US military protection.
education
The problem here is that the U.S. tend to overshadow all the good theyve done which isnt alot to begin with by quickly doing something very stupid like Iraq. I admit the U.S did help us in WW2 by supplying us with weapons to fight the japanese but make no mistake it was the chinese soldiers that toughened it out in the end not one american soldier was sent to us to help us so in reality all america really did was supply us with ammunition to continue our fight with the japanese. Your right the U.S isnt perfect were not perfect the whole point here is no country is which is why the americans complaint of chinas military buildup is ridiculous because neither one of us are in a position to judge one another because neither one of us are perfect but somehow the states feel like there on some higher plateau then we are thus allowing them to pass any kind of judgement on any country and this is whats wrong.


QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 21 2006, 12:22 AM) [snapback]2500770[/snapback]

All this talk about how big and bad the US is, but you forget the amount of good the US has done. Hasn't the US saved China from Japan? Of all people, shouldn't the Chinese be thankful of the US?

The US has done more good than bad. I am not saying that the US is perfect but as far as military powers have been in recorded history, it's the most benevolent.
kunomchu
QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 21 2006, 12:22 AM) [snapback]2500770[/snapback]

All this talk about how big and bad the US is, but you forget the amount of good the US has done. Hasn't the US saved China from Japan? Of all people, shouldn't the Chinese be thankful of the US?

The US has done more good than bad. I am not saying that the US is perfect but as far as military powers have been in recorded history, it's the most benevolent.


True I give props to the United States for what it did during WW2. The flying tigers were awesome and the nukes that were dropped on japan ended the war. But U.S is also the reason why China was contained and why Taiwan still exist as a separate political entity. The United States is still trying to contain China by selling weapons to its neighbors and countering influence abroad. I think that it id the US, that is building up this "China threat" U.S is just as guilty as the Soviets for screwing up the many countries in the world. It has that old colonial mentality. Just look at Vietnam and Iraq.
STFU
China needs to kick foreign cars out and protect her own auto mkt like what Japanese and koreans are doing. The protectionism is not good for innovation for the most of industries. But the auto industry is an exception.

martin_nuke
QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 21 2006, 12:25 AM) [snapback]2500770[/snapback]

All this talk about how big and bad the US is, but you forget the amount of good the US has done. Hasn't the US saved China from Japan? Of all people, shouldn't the Chinese be thankful of the US?

The US has done more good than bad. I am not saying that the US is perfect but as far as military powers have been in recorded history, it's the most benevolent.
Dude, you're fu-king stupid. One country doesn't apply to the whole world, first off. Second, Iraq's problem is that there's not enough troops there.

Personally, the war was a bad idea at the time as we were already in Afghanistan and it wasn't even executed properly. But, that still doesn't mean that most countries around the world don't benefit from US military protection.


The problem with Afganistan and Iraq that it is very hard to secure because there are no natural borders and boundaries the terrorists come in and out very easily. Their frontiers are to big and its a security nightmare. The best natural border is a river or the ocean which is enough to secure a country.
Titanium
Even though every Chinese should be thankful that the US intervened during WW2, the only they did so was because their own interests were being threatened. There in lies the myth that China wouldn't exist if it wasn't for US intervention. It assumes that Japanese interests extended only to China alone when in reality Japanese Imperialism was a threat to the whole world at the time. From 1937-41, China fought ALONE! That's right COMPLETELY ALONE! Thankfully for China though was that the delusional Japanese government wanted not only to conquer all of China but the entire world. Most people tend to overlook the fact that the IJA at the time was hell bent on world domination and China was merely a starting point or a stepping stone for world conquest. The Japanese goal was to capture all of China then eventually SE Asia then Australia then Siberia and then expand west into India and eventually Europe. We all know the idea of Japan conquering the world was utterly non-sense fantasy as they didn't even come close (They couldn't even capture all of China which was a very weak country during that time without overusing their resources). If the US had continued to fuel for Japanese expansion or continued to just wait for Japan's successful conquest (Assuming that Japan would have succeeded), they would have been screwing themselves over because eventually the two powers would have inevitably conflicted with each other and believe you me, a Japan fighting a two front war and being held down in China would have been much easier to handle than an Asia controlled Japan. Essentially you can argue that the US should thank China for containing Japan and tieing her army down for as long as she could because an Asia controlled in Japanese favor could have easily threatened the other powers of the world: Soviet Russia, the US, and Nazi Germany. So the idea that China should be thankful for the US can easily be argued in reciprocation.
product_ako
FYI: The USA supported Republic of China and not People's Republic of China in WWII. In fact, after the defeat of Japan in WWII the Chinese Civil War between the KMT (Nationalist) and CCP (Communist) resumed.

This lasted for about 2 years until a stalemate occurred and negotiations began between the KMT and CCP. The USA originally wanted negotiated for the North and South divided China, not wanting to enter another protracted land war in Asia. The KMT rejected this idea since as Nationalist a divided China was an unacceptable solution.

The USA eventually stop supplying the KMT with arms and instead gave the KMT a loan package to purchase arms from the USA. The CPC regrouped with USSR support and drove the KMT to Taiwan.

So I wouldn't neccessarily believe USA had always had unconditional support of China (ROC). The USA support always came at a huge price tag. Just look at the $18 billion dollar arms package USA is "forcing" Taiwan to buy to continue their support.
supersloth
QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 20 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]2500770[/snapback]

Hasn't the US saved China from Japan?


if it werent for china, the US would have payed a MUCH higher price in fighting japan. 2/3 of the japanese army was bogged down in china. china basically held japan down while the US kicked him in the face.

US didnt save anyone, they only intervened when their own interest were threatened. where were they when Japan invaded 6 years earlier.
rahul1000
QUOTE(supersloth @ Nov 22 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]2505316[/snapback]

if it werent for china, the US would have payed a MUCH higher price in fighting japan. 2/3 of the japanese army was bogged down in china. china basically held japan down while the US kicked him in the face.

US didnt save anyone, they only intervened when their own interest were threatened. where were they when Japan invaded 6 years earlier.


Uh huh, totally agree. beerchug.gif

The U.S didn't give a flying fu-k about the Rape of Nanjing and whatnot, they just stood back and were neutral, just like as the Holocaust was going on. They only fought against Japan after Pearl Harbor, didn't save China, China helped the U.S by keeping most of the Japanese busy.
Titanium
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if China should be thankful for US intervention, likewise the US should be thankful that China held Japan down. The gratitude should be reciprocal not one-sided. If China simply surrendered and chose to submit to Japan's will, the rest of Asia would have surely fallen. I wonder which scenario the US would have rather dealt with, a Japan being tied down in to China or a Japan with all of Asia at her disposal. Since the Imperial Japanese was a threat to every major power at the time, the US was actually doing herself a huge disservice by simply standing by/fueling the Japanese war effort because it was inevitable that both powers would have collided. In a sense Japan was doomed to failure since the beginning, their ambitions superceded their abilities and eventually China was going to be liberated one way or another either by herself (Which would have been much more painful) or luring another power into the conflict.
BigBenChow
QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 21 2006, 02:16 PM) [snapback]2500757[/snapback]

That's because the US's military is used to defend most countries in the world in addition to its own.


Which country are they defending when they invaded Iraq?
education
F*cking dip $hit name one country in the world right now that is benefitting from american occupation and then look in the mirror and kick yourself for being so ignorantly blind. Your the same person whos trying to tell us that the U.S. saved China from Japan??? I guess if china got invaded by martians we should also thank the americans for saving us too according to your logic since in your eyes they cant seem to do no wrong. Why dont you do us all a favor and go kiss bill oreilly and lou dobbs up the a** you misguided piece of trash. Dont try to get smart with me.


QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Nov 21 2006, 12:25 AM) [snapback]2500770[/snapback]

All this talk about how big and bad the US is, but you forget the amount of good the US has done. Hasn't the US saved China from Japan? Of all people, shouldn't the Chinese be thankful of the US?

The US has done more good than bad. I am not saying that the US is perfect but as far as military powers have been in recorded history, it's the most benevolent.
Dude, you're fu-king stupid. One country doesn't apply to the whole world, first off. Second, Iraq's problem is that there's not enough troops there.

Personally, the war was a bad idea at the time as we were already in Afghanistan and it wasn't even executed properly. But, that still doesn't mean that most countries around the world don't benefit from US military protection.
f20btran
I used to ride my bicycle, now my bicyle rides my car??
Chinese_Soldier
QUOTE(f20btran @ Nov 23 2006, 12:51 PM) [snapback]2508344[/snapback]

I used to ride my bicycle, now my bicyle rides my car??


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